[Value Of] Horvat - To build a contender.

[khay]

14 hours ago, Alflives said:

Who cares about TO?  I’d rather have Bo at 5 million than Matthews at 12, wouldn’t you?

Yes. If you compare Bo at 5 and Boeser probably at 7 versus Matthews at 12... I don't think paying 10+ mil for a player just because he is a franchise player is a good idea. Even Crosby and Malkin gets less than 10 and one is generational, the other is a franchise player who is close as you get to being generational. At this point, McDavid is the only generational player among the players drafted since 2015 and the only one that deserves 10+ mil salary.

 

[scheif16]

5 hours ago, Alflives said:

Who cares about TO?  I’d rather have Bo at 5 million than Matthews at 12, wouldn’t you?

I'm good with Bo at 5 mil

[IBatch]

11 hours ago, khay said:

Not for a very good reason is my guess. Bo said something like he would like captaincy if offered and apparently to some, it was disrespectful to want captaincy when Henrik is still around the team. Too eager I guess.

That's a loadedn question because if he said no then some people would complain what sort of leader turns down responsibility or some dribble.

[khay]

53 minutes ago, IBatch said:

That's a loadedn question because if he said no then some people would complain what sort of leader turns down responsibility or some dribble.

Yeah. I think saying Bo is not a captain material or he is not ready because of that is a bit too much.

 

But I guess what some people are saying is that he should have said something like: "Hank is still here and it is premature for me to talk about that right now."

 

They want a politician.

 

[JM_]

12 hours ago, EdgarM said:

X2 - I am good with Bo and EP as a one two punch. Let someone else over pay for Tavares. Bo is a piece of the puzzle why get rid of something you need?

its going to be hard enough to keep enough talent on the team with the salaries coming up, and we need the money for a 1D more than Tavares imo 

[Canucklehead73]

I think it would be great to sign tavares as we need a number one center.

 

Thing I will point out is pettersson smashed all those records playing wing... maybe he is a great winger.

 

That would give us tavares between boeser and pettersson and horvat as our number two.

 

That's great depth up front.

 

[kloubek]

32 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

its going to be hard enough to keep enough talent on the team with the salaries coming up, and we need the money for a 1D more than Tavares imo 

...but I did the math.  We can actually still get Tavares AND a #1D, and I didn't factor the cap increase from year to year and set it at 80m through the next 3 years. The only thing I didn't factor in is Luongo's recapture penalty.  IF we get hit with 8m in one season, that'll hurt.  But it will hurt no matter what, so we can't put our team on pause waiting for that to happen.

 

The Sedins being off the books makes a HUGE difference to our cap space, and with other contracts coming off the books going forward like Edler, Hutton, and Del Zotto in a year we actually have quite a bit of wiggle room - even after considering raises to guys like Baertschi and Virtanen, and even the big one which is Boeser in 2 years.

[JM_]

3 minutes ago, kloubek said:

...but I did the math.  We can actually still get Tavares AND a #1D, and I didn't factor the cap increase from year to year and set it at 80m through the next 3 years. The only thing I didn't factor in is Luongo's recapture penalty.  IF we get hit with 8m in one season, that'll hurt.  But it will hurt no matter what, so we can't put our team on pause waiting for that to happen.

 

The Sedins being off the books makes a HUGE difference to our cap space, and with other contracts coming off the books going forward like Edler, Hutton, and Del Zotto in a year we actually have quite a bit of wiggle room - even after considering raises to guys like Baertschi and Virtanen, and even the big one which is Boeser in 2 years.

With the Lu thing, my guess is that we'd be hit with a penalty of lost draft picks. If we're at the cap and Lu retires, there isn't much we can do about it. I don't think its anything we need to worry about, Lu won't turn down LTIR money.

 

I guess I would need to see the whole salary picture, everything would have to go perfectly on all the other major deals on the team. 

[kloubek]

4 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

With the Lu thing, my guess is that we'd be hit with a penalty of lost draft picks. If we're at the cap and Lu retires, there isn't much we can do about it. I don't think its anything we need to worry about, Lu won't turn down LTIR money.

 

I guess I would need to see the whole salary picture, everything would have to go perfectly on all the other major deals on the team. 

I actually spent quite a bit of time on the numbers, as I wanted to see if it would make sense to even go after Tavares. The question can certainly be asked if it is worth spending some 12m on one single player who might regress a little at the end of his contract, but the way I figured it is that once our top 6 and top 2 defensive pairings are set, the rest of the players come pretty cheap. So based on that, we looked quite alright from a cap perspective and if it continues going up some 1-3m per season we are more than fine.

...and if we don't get a really expensive name like Tavares, then the cap is almost a non-issue. We can basically target UFAs at will.  (Although if we didn't fill the cap this season I REALLY want to take on a bad contract for a year or two to transform our cap space into assets/picks)

[JM_]

2 minutes ago, kloubek said:

I actually spent quite a bit of time on the numbers, as I wanted to see if it would make sense to even go after Tavares. The question can certainly be asked if it is worth spending some 12m on one single player who might regress a little at the end of his contract, but the way I figured it is that once our top 6 and top 2 defensive pairings are set, the rest of the players come pretty cheap. So based on that, we looked quite alright from a cap perspective and if it continues going up some 1-3m per season we are more than fine.

...and if we don't get a really expensive name like Tavares, then the cap is almost a non-issue. We can basically target UFAs at will.  (Although if we didn't fill the cap this season I REALLY want to take on a bad contract for a year or two to transform our cap space into assets/picks)

if you can find a way to move Gagner instead I'd be happier. 

 

What I'd be concerned about is getting into an Edmonton type situation where you have a decent top pairing and then the rest is crap. But Vegas is doing very well without any marquee D so maybe you're on to something. 

[kloubek]

20 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

if you can find a way to move Gagner instead I'd be happier. 

 

What I'd be concerned about is getting into an Edmonton type situation where you have a decent top pairing and then the rest is crap. But Vegas is doing very well without any marquee D so maybe you're on to something. 

Sorry... forgot to mention, I assumed Gagner was gone.

 

I totally hear you.  But I think Edmonton is an enigma. First of all, they have two very high priced forwards whereas we'd only have one, although Boeser is going to cost us and eventually I expect Pettersson will too.  (My math didn't include 4 years in which would have required a re-up of his contract).  But it DID include a #1 d factored in although I cannot recall how much I attributed to that.  7 or 8m.  I actually DO think a marquee defenseman is important (though not absolutely required) to drive the pp and to provide that sure-fire punch from the back end.  You're right though... some teams have gotten by without one just fine. I did leave the d largely untouched, and factored that Juolevi would be our #2 guy which is still up in the air.  If he could even be a 30 point guy for us I think that's just fine for the offensive 2nd pairing level. If he didn't work out my plan starts to fall apart because drafting the D would take longer than I'd like and UFAs are always overpriced.

[JM_]

24 minutes ago, kloubek said:

Sorry... forgot to mention, I assumed Gagner was gone.

 

I totally hear you.  But I think Edmonton is an enigma. First of all, they have two very high priced forwards whereas we'd only have one, although Boeser is going to cost us and eventually I expect Pettersson will too.  (My math didn't include 4 years in which would have required a re-up of his contract).  But it DID include a #1 d factored in although I cannot recall how much I attributed to that.  7 or 8m.  I actually DO think a marquee defenseman is important (though not absolutely required) to drive the pp and to provide that sure-fire punch from the back end.  You're right though... some teams have gotten by without one just fine. I did leave the d largely untouched, and factored that Juolevi would be our #2 guy which is still up in the air.  If he could even be a 30 point guy for us I think that's just fine for the offensive 2nd pairing level. If he didn't work out my plan starts to fall apart because drafting the D would take longer than I'd like and UFAs are always overpriced.

I'm pretty inspired by what Vegas is doing, it does show what good coaching and motivation can do. 

 

Hey if it actually occurred and we got JT I'd be pretty pumped. It would cause some issues on having to move someone off the F group but thats the kind of problem you want to have, Chicago made that work for years. 

[kloubek]

30 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

I'm pretty inspired by what Vegas is doing, it does show what good coaching and motivation can do. 

 

Hey if it actually occurred and we got JT I'd be pretty pumped. It would cause some issues on having to move someone off the F group but thats the kind of problem you want to have, Chicago made that work for years. 

We already have a glut of quality forwards.  There is going to be lots of moving as it is, and like you said - that's the kind of "problem" you want.

 

With this said, I think we are going to be ok in the forward group without Tavares.  I just find it particularly tempting as he is the kind of guy who doesn't hit free agency often, and adding him to the lineup both lets us compete sooner than later, but really stacks our team with elite talent. If we didn't do the Horvat thing I suggested (and I can appreciate the hesitation from most of you), then we move Pettersson to the LW and it ends up being Pettersson Tavares Boeser.  That's truly potentially the best line in hockey and the best line in hockey.  Then if we kept Horvat on the 2nd, there should be plenty of wingers we can place with him in the next year or two who are up to the task.  You gotta think that between Dahlen, Leipsic, Lind, Virtanen, Palmu, Jasek, Gaudette (who CAN play wing), Gadjovich, Goldobin, and a handful of others that at least a couple of 2nd liners will come out of that.  And he's had good chemistry with Baertschi so if he isn't moved that's already 2/3rds of the line right there.

 

Good times.

[EdgarM]

9 hours ago, kloubek said:

We already have a glut of quality forwards.  There is going to be lots of moving as it is, and like you said - that's the kind of "problem" you want.

 

With this said, I think we are going to be ok in the forward group without Tavares.  I just find it particularly tempting as he is the kind of guy who doesn't hit free agency often, and adding him to the lineup both lets us compete sooner than later, but really stacks our team with elite talent. If we didn't do the Horvat thing I suggested (and I can appreciate the hesitation from most of you), then we move Pettersson to the LW and it ends up being Pettersson Tavares Boeser.  That's truly potentially the best line in hockey and the best line in hockey.  Then if we kept Horvat on the 2nd, there should be plenty of wingers we can place with him in the next year or two who are up to the task.  You gotta think that between Dahlen, Leipsic, Lind, Virtanen, Palmu, Jasek, Gaudette (who CAN play wing), Gadjovich, Goldobin, and a handful of others that at least a couple of 2nd liners will come out of that.  And he's had good chemistry with Baertschi so if he isn't moved that's already 2/3rds of the line right there.

 

Good times.

I share your sentiments, but, not with a forward such as Tavares, its with a PMD Dman such as Carlson.

[wildcam]

On April 23, 2018 at 9:02 AM, kloubek said:

Ok, hear me out before you lynch me.  What I am about to suggest is not going to be popular, nor is it going to be likely.  Let's make that clear.  Especially the latter portion.  THIS IS NOT LIKELY.

 

But let's say, just say it happened.

 

First, it relies on us acquiring Tavares.  There are plenty of reasons why he might be willing to come to Vancouver, and while most don't think it is possible I imagine most of it relies on whether he believes he could win a cup here or not.  If we showed him a plan where it seemed likely, and we also offered him the best contract option, I do think it is at least feasible that we could make an offer he would consider.  So let's just say we did that, and let's say we got him.

 

In this circumstance, we would have Tavares, Horvat, and Pettersson as high end center material.  We COULD play Pettersson on the wing but there are two reasons I'm not keen on that.  First, if a player is able to play center properly (as Pettersson is) I feel it is a waste to put them on wing.  I could see a scenario where our 1-2 punch would be Tavares and Pettersson, and that would put Horvat as the odd man out.  The second is to reunite him with Dahlen.

 

I know everyone loves Horvat.  I do too.  But if we already have two elite centers, it would actually make him expendable and you need to give up quality to get quality.

 

...and what we don't have, however, is a quality #1 d-man.  

 

So how about this: Acquire Tavares, then trade Horvat + Hutton + ? for a guy like Klingberg.  He would dramatically help Dallas's center position.

 

Then next season if he goes UFA, sign OEL.

 

In the end, our team looks something like this:

 

______* Tavares Boeser

Dahlen Pettersson Lind
Virtanen Sutter Eriksson

Gadjovich Gaudette Archibald

 

Gagner and Baertschi are traded for picks to help ensure we maintain a winning team in years to come.

 

* This spot could be Virtanen.  Could be Goldobin.  Or maybe Eriksson finds chemistry with Tavares. Or Leipsic takes a step up.  Maybe Gadjovich explodes on the scene.  Or maybe we luck out and draft Zadina.  There are options for this position.  Having Tavares at #1 shelters him to flourish in a #2 position. Before he is put into the lineup, he plays one full year in Utica and we sign a UFA center for 1 year in the meantime while we tank one last year.

 

Then for the d:

Klingberg Tanev - One of the top scoring d and one of the top defensive d in the league.  (Yes I know, people want to trade Tanev.  We can work on that and maybe get a young defender in return)

OEL Gudbranson - Solid scoring defender for the 2nd pp unit, and a physical defensive defender.  Not SUPER keen on Gudbranson, but we have him under contract now)

Edler* Stecher  - (*Re-signed for 2m)  Edler would thrive in a 3rd pairing offensive role.  Stecher would compliment him well.

We tank for next season, then after that... BAM.  Assuming Demko can hold the fort or Markstrom finds consistency, we have a contender the following season.  The above is a VERY good team, and we can actually fit it under the cap for the duration of the contracts in play.

 

Is all this likely?  No.  Not at all.  But COULD it happen?

 

Do you guys feel this is a heavily contending team as I do? I realize it is a long shot but if all the stars fell into place, I do think it is possible...

First of all this deal will never happen, Tavares will not come to a rebuilding team...He has a good young team with NYI...

I predict Tavares will stay with NYI...But if something surprising happens his team will be Toronto or the Sharks..

 

BOTH LEAF'S AND SHARKS WILL MAKE ROOM FOR THIS SIGNING....

HE WILL NOT SIGN IN VANCOUVER..... THOSE ARE THE ONLY 2 TEAMS OTHER THEN NYI.....

 

 

[kloubek]

2 hours ago, wildcam said:

HE WILL NOT SIGN IN VANCOUVER..... THOSE ARE THE ONLY 2 TEAMS OTHER THEN NYI.....

HOW DO YOU KNOW THIS?  DID HE MAKE SUCH A PUBLIC STATEMENT?  WHY ARE WE YELLING?

[Guest]

Tbh, if we're acquiring Tavares, I'd be trading EP + another asset for the Dahlin pick.

[kloubek]

37 minutes ago, Captain Azzy said:

Tbh, if we're acquiring Tavares, I'd be trading EP + another asset for the Dahlin pick.

Wow that would be a bold move.  Not sure I agree.  Pettersson is going to be a star in this league.  Dahlin probably will too, but there is just a little risk there.  If need be, Pettersson can shift to the wing so while I'd prefer him at center, if we did somehow get JT I don't think it affects anything significantly.

[Guest]

51 minutes ago, kloubek said:

Wow that would be a bold move.  Not sure I agree.  Pettersson is going to be a star in this league.  Dahlin probably will too, but there is just a little risk there.  If need be, Pettersson can shift to the wing so while I'd prefer him at center, if we did somehow get JT I don't think it affects anything significantly.

I was thinking more of dealing from a position of strength; Tavares and Horvat are known quantities, and if we're going to have either EP or Dahlin, why not put that risk on the potential #1 D we've not had in 48 years rather than yet another forward? With Dahlen and Goldobin in the wings, plus Boeser, we could have an amazing top six by 2020 but no-one on the backend to move the puck to them.

[kloubek]

23 minutes ago, Captain Azzy said:

I was thinking more of dealing from a position of strength; Tavares and Horvat are known quantities, and if we're going to have either EP or Dahlin, why not put that risk on the potential #1 D we've not had in 48 years rather than yet another forward? With Dahlen and Goldobin in the wings, plus Boeser, we could have an amazing top six by 2020 but no-one on the backend to move the puck to them.

I get it.  We badly need that franchise D-man and I can see your perspective.  I guess I feel there is more risk with Dahlin than there is with Pettersson.  While both have to make the shift to North American ice, Pettersson has played against men in his league and has the stats that blow away prior Swedish greats.  Dahlin really hasn't proven anything yet other than the fact he has enormous skill.  

 

So did Yakupov. And Stephan.  Sure things aren't always sure things.