An Intelligent Debate on Ancient Alien Theory

[Down by the River]

Just now, Aladeen said:

At best then that makes the probability for God undefined... not of Extraterrestrial Life. 

Definitely! Which means that we cannot compare the likelihood of God versus the likelihood of Extraterrestrial life because we failed to solve the probability of God.

 

[Aladeen]

Just now, Down by the River said:

Definitely! Which means that we cannot compare the likelihood of God versus the likelihood of Extraterrestrial life because we failed to solve the probability of God.

 

But you admit extraterrestrial life is a certainty then? Or at least as close as you can get in probability to that? 

 

You are just saying that since math doesn't allow us, in a concrete sense, to calculate the probability of God, they can't be compared.

 

Independent of God's existence, extraterrestrial life exists and can be quantified

 

God will have to be left to the theologians not mathematicians.

[Down by the River]

Just now, Aladeen said:

But you admit extraterrestrial life is a certainty then? Or at least as close as you can get in probability to that? 

 

You are just saying that since math doesn't allow us, in a concrete sense, to calculate the probability of God, they can't be compared.

 

Independent of God's existence, extraterrestrial life exists and can be quantified

 

God will have to be left to the theologians not mathematicians.

For sure. If you gave me $100 and told me that I had to use it to bet on whether alien life would be discovered in the next 100 years, I'd put the money on "yes". 

[Primal Optimist]

DbtR seems to be using some stats class definitions to base his argument upon. I am not. I am simply saying that relative to each other alien life is more probable than omnipotent life or 'gods'. As others have pointed out: we have examples of life in the universe...and as I have pointed out every example of 'the word of god' has been shown to be the work of a human who is limited to exactly what the known world around that human was at the time of publication. Gods are fiction, life in the universe if nonfiction. Relative to each other Alien existence has a far superior probability than gods existence. 

[Aladeen]

Just now, Down by the River said:

For sure. If you gave me $100 and told me that I had to use it to bet on whether alien life would be discovered in the next 100 years, I'd put the money on "yes". 

Ok I can agree to that then... again like I mentioned before, if God does exist then mathematics is only applicable within the system of God and not outside of what is "beyond" God and therefore rational mathematics would not be able to be used to quantify God. 

 

God's existence or not doesn't change the probability of Extraterrestrial life either way so in reality comparison between the two doesn't even matter. 

[Primal Optimist]

Aladeen, your last statement lends me to think you support the existence of god or gods and are working feverishly to suspend any tools that would be argued by folks who do not have 'faith' in the existence of gods. That seems disingenuous at best and not a valid argument for me to consider. In essence I am hearing "you don't know there isn't a god" dressed up with better language. The only evidence for any gods existence is very flawed human written and oral traditions which very clearly have been shown in every instance to be the work of humans attempting to explain the unknown. In fact, to bring it back on topic one could use your argument to say "if god intended us to know about the existence of aliens we wouldn't be guessing about it". I don't buy it all the way. We have in this thread heard that there is indeed life in the universe, we are the example of that. We have not heard any kind of evidence for gods existence and nature abhors a vacuum.

[Hugor Hill]

1 hour ago, Rush17 said:

Thanks for the clarification. I misunderstood my apologies.  I've heard from some scientists creating pryamids today would be a huge monumental task. Do you know if we could create a replica in that same environment?

I doubt it. The amount of social organization that's required to do it with ancient techs must be mind boggling. 

 

 

[Rush17]

58 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

After wading though a dozen or so pages, I'm ready to weigh in on a couple of things. Firstly, I think the OP needs to practice what he or she preaches. If anyone is not following the "keep it respectful" mantra it's you.

 

The one thing that I noticed is that there seems to be this idea that Alien intervention on earth is "more plausible" than Divine Intervention, and therefore makes Alien intervention a probable cause of how humanity got to where it is. However, I believe in neither and judging by many of the comments ITT, I'd guess that I'm not alone in that sentiment.

 

This isn't to say that I don't believe that aliens exist in the universe. I believe that the universe is far too vast and the variations that life can take (even intelligent life) too many for humanity to be alone in the cosmos. That being said, the vastness of the universe and the numerous combination of factors required for life to gain a foothold, make me believe that it is extremely unlikely that technologically advanced aliens have ever visited the earth.

 

Someone with a "PhD in Astrophysics" would certainly understand the constraints that the speed of light would put on interstellar travel. At our currently "advanced" level of technology, the closest star to us (other than the sun) is over 80,000 years away.

 

Someone earlier made a good point about the seemingly random methods that these hypothetical aliens employed as well. They drop in from time to time, teach us some algebra and Trig and then head back to Barnard's Star, until it's time for our next lesson. (or when they run out of cows, or decide it's time to "probe" a few farmers) All the while, doing a very poor job of covering their tracks. (It seems as though they both want humans to know about them, but at the same time, they don't. Hence the vague "clues" about their existence)

 

I also have to wonder how the ancient Sumerians, or Phoenicians would have reacted to these math lessons. For a civilization mainly concerned with farming (and warring with other ancient civilizations) modern algebra must have seemed an awfully esoteric subject to be studying. Those aliens were pretty amazing teachers to hold their interest, all those thousands of years ago....

Al though I agree with most of your post. You are viewing the likelyhood of a extraterrestrial species visiting us based on the knowledge we have of space travel.  If a species were let's say a thousand years older without to many hiccups and had a similar technology advancement timeline.

 

They in theory would likely have a vast greater understanding of space, the universe, and its inner workings. To say that they likely wouldn't visit us because our knowledge days otherwise just isn't fair.  

 

We need to look at this from a further prism without our own expectations of what's possible.  Where would we be in 1,000 years from now technology?  Ok now let's look at how old our perception of the universe is.

 

If it is indeed 10 billion years or w/e the accepted belief now. There could easily be civilizations millions of not billions of years older. To say that they cannot get here based on what we know just isn't a fair observation. I appreciate the rest of your points though. 

 

I just wanted to alter our collective perspective on the matter. We cannot limit or interpret their understanding based on our own.  Perhaps part of the reason they haven't openly visited is because we be are s self obsessed and lack the ability to have belief in their existence.

 

Until we as a whole accept their possiblity and explore the evidence how do we know?  For all we know the means to contact them is in the collective evidence scattered over the world. You never know. I don't know.

 

But it's fun to think. Imagine if the the means to contact them was here all along. We just had to get along and look for the evidence in our own backyard/history.

 

[Rush17]

6 minutes ago, Hugor Hill said:

I doubt it. The amount of social organization that's required to do it with ancient techs must be mind boggling. 

 

 

What about with modern technology. How long would it take us? If you were to guess.

[Alflives]

30 minutes ago, Aladeen said:

Ok I can agree to that then... again like I mentioned before, if God does exist then mathematics is only applicable within the system of God and not outside of what is "beyond" God and therefore rational mathematics would not be able to be used to quantify God. 

 

God's existence or not doesn't change the probability of Extraterrestrial life either way so in reality comparison between the two doesn't even matter. 

Both the belief in a God, and the belief in alien existence depends on faith.  

[Aladeen]

9 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Both the belief in a God, and the belief in alien existence depends on faith.  

[RUPERTKBD]

6 minutes ago, Rush17 said:

Al though I agree with most of your post. You are viewing the likelyhood of a extraterrestrial species visiting us based on the knowledge we have of space travel.  If a species were let's say a thousand years older without to many hiccups and had a similar technology advancement timeline.

 

They in theory would likely have a vast greater understanding of space, the universe, and its inner workings. To say that they likely wouldn't visit us because our knowledge days otherwise just isn't fair.  

 

We need to look at this from a further prism without our own expectations of what's possible.  Where would we be in 1,000 years from now technology?  Ok now let's look at how old our perception of the universe is.

 

If it is indeed 10 billion years or w/e the accepted belief now. There could easily be civilizations millions of not billions of years older. To say that they cannot get here based on what we know just isn't a fair observation. I appreciate the rest of your points though. 

 

I just wanted to alter our collective perspective on the matter. We cannot limit or interpret their understanding based on our own.  Perhaps part of the reason they haven't openly visited is because we be are s self obsessed and lack the ability to have belief in their existence.

 

Until we as a whole accept their possiblity and explore the evidence how do we know?  For all we know the means to contact them is in the collective evidence scattered over the world. You never know. I don't know.

 

But it's fun to think. Imagine if the the means to contact them was here all along. We just had to get along and look for the evidence in our own backyard/history.

 

I just read a rather bleak trilogy on the subject by a fantastic Sci-Fi writer from China named Cixin Liu. 

 

His take on the whole thing was that the universe is populated by many advanced civilizations that all co-exist in a cosmic game of hide and seek. The reason we haven't discovered any other civilizations is that they're not dumb enough to make themselves known. Those who do, generally find them selves wiped out rather quickly.

 

Of course, earth makes the colossal mistake of contacting a more technically advanced civilization and the results (for both) are devastating. The aliens aren't capable of faster than light travel, so once the aliens' intentions are known, we have about 400 years to prepare for the invasion. (That number is reduced drastically at around the halfway point, as the aliens finally achieve light speed)

 

If Liu is to be believed, we should shut down SETI right now....

[Aladeen]

9 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Both the belief in a God, and the belief in alien existence depends on faith.  

One the faith in mathematics, science and probability

 

the other, faith in stories people told thousands of years ago 

 

I will let you figure out which is which

[Rush17]

2 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Both the belief in a God, and the belief in alien existence depends on faith.  

I think it's silly we are even discussing the legitimacy of God.  We all have different interpretations of what God is. I would say those interpretations in North America have drastically shifted.  

 

I wonder some times if we are not meant to question god & our reason to be here. We are the only species on the planet who question these things. Perhaps it gives us a sense of purpose and keeps us from turning back into apes.  

 

I believe we should have our own private beliefs of God that we share only with young loved ones who ask for our interpretation.  The whole organization religion sector has caused a lot of pain and death.  (There is some good too no doubt)

 

I believe it's important to find your own meaning of life and the universe. I respect everyone's beliefs though.  But anyone who tries to argue the merit or legitimacy of God should really contemplate why they feel the need to try and disprove the existence of God. Perhaps it says more about that person then the topic itself. 

 

Debating gods existence in general is silly. There is no way to prove or disprove what God is so why do we try and force ideals on others. We need to remember our meaning of God is often not the same as others.  God is a loaded word with different meanings to different people. 

 

I wouldn't know how to label my beliefs. I never use to like the word God but I've grown to understand God has many meanings to many people. I feel a little more comfortable using the world now.

[Alflives]

2 minutes ago, Aladeen said:

One the faith in mathematics, science and probability

 

the other, faith in stories people told thousands of years ago 

 

I will let you figure out which is which

Why would one (existence of a God, or existence of alien life) be more probable than the other?  Neither can be proved or disproved.  

[Rush17]

5 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

I just read a rather bleak trilogy on the subject by a fantastic Sci-Fi writer from China named Cixin Liu. 

 

His take on the whole thing was that the universe is populated by many advanced civilizations that all co-exist in a cosmic game of hide and seek. The reason we haven't discovered any other civilizations is that they're not dumb enough to make themselves known. Those who do, generally find them selves wiped out rather quickly.

 

Of course, earth makes the colossal mistake of contacting a more technically advanced civilization and the results (for both) are devastating. The aliens aren't capable of faster than light travel, so once the aliens' intentions are known, we have about 400 years to prepare for the invasion. (That number is reduced drastically at around the halfway point, as the aliens finally achieve light speed)

 

If Liu is to be believed, we should shut down SETI right now....

Lol. I love it. That sounds like a good book.  I use to listen to a lot of Alan Watts in my early 20s. The concept of hide and seek in zen Buddhism is really fun.  Seti is a concern for sure. I am more worried about aliens accessing our Internet and downloading all of our information.  I just started watching the show colony and spoiler alert......... Aliens have collected our data into a rolladex and use that information to enslave us lol. It is a fascinating show I am loving it.  

 

I like to believe in species being benevolent but we should take pre cautions to ensure our safety.  Until we know what it's like I think it's important we take steps to protect ourselves. 

 

I would love for us to cut down on light pollution not only so we can see the stars but also to make us less visible. Not that it would matter with advanced technology lol. We are so cut off from the universe because of the light pollution. Makes me sad.

[Aladeen]

Just now, Alflives said:

Why would one (existence of a God, or existence of alien life) be more probable than the other?  Neither can be proved or disproved.  

Um actually they can,

 

Proof of aliens when we find life anywhere other than earth = Proved

 

Proof of God when God comes here and tells us of his/it's existence = Proved

 

And like I already said the ability to calculated the probability of extraterrestrial life is possible already. I have a hunch you are just a troll but I will feed you this one last time:

 

Number of planets with life on it = 1

Number of Planets we know of = 10,000 approximately

Number of the Planets in the Universe = Insanely large number

 

1/10,000 = .0001 

x100 = .01% - probability of life on planets through our observation. 

x #of Planets in the Universe = 100% - much greater number is returned than this but we only need to get to 100%

 

[RUPERTKBD]

9 minutes ago, Rush17 said:

Lol. I love it. That sounds like a good book.  I use to listen to a lot of Alan Watts in my early 20s. The concept of hide and seek in zen Buddhism is really fun.  Seti is a concern for sure. I am more worried about aliens accessing our Internet and downloading all of our information.  I just started watching the show colony and spoiler alert......... Aliens have collected our data into a rolladex and use that information to enslave us lol. It is a fascinating show I am loving it.  

 

I like to believe in species being benevolent but we should take pre cautions to ensure our safety.  Until we know what it's like I think it's important we take steps to protect ourselves. 

 

I would love for us to cut down on light pollution not only so we can see the stars but also to make us less visible. Not that it would matter with advanced technology lol. We are so cut off from the universe because of the light pollution. Makes me sad.

In case you're interested: https://www.amazon.ca/Remembrance-Earths-Past-Three-Body-Trilogy-ebook/dp/B01N198VU5

[Hugor Hill]

8 minutes ago, Aladeen said:

Um actually they can,

 

Proof of aliens when we find life anywhere other than earth = Proved

 

Proof of God when God comes here and tells us of his/it's existence = Proved

 

And like I already said the ability to calculated the probability of extraterrestrial life is possible already. I have a hunch you are just a troll but I will feed you this one last time:

 

Number of planets with life on it = 1

Number of Planets we know of = 10,000 approximately

Number of the Planets in the Universe = Insanely large number

 

1/10,000 = .0001 

x100 = .01% - probability of life on planets through our observation. 

x #of Planets in the Universe = 100% - much greater number is returned than this but we only need to get to 100%

 

What?

[Aladeen]

3 minutes ago, Hugor Hill said:

What?

Would that not prove god exists?