An Intelligent Debate on Ancient Alien Theory

[J-23]

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP96-00788R001900760001-9.pdf

 

Here is the link.

[Rush17]

On 2018-05-13 at 7:12 AM, Alflives said:

“Intelligent Discussion on Ancient Aliens”.  Equals classic oxymoron.  Yes, posters can spew  their beliefs by using intellectually presented writing, but the topic is still “Ancient Aliens”, which (in itself) is not intellectual.  It’s fun to discuss such beliefs, bu certainly not intellectual.  

@EuroCanuck your statement, “ the fact is our history is clearly not as we are told” suggests you believe in a conspiracy theory.  You have strong beliefs.  Those beliefs indicate faith, which implies: that which you wish to discuss rationally cannot be, because it cannot be proven scientifically — Oxymoron.  

I would argue there is more evidence for the concept of alien contact then not. How could any body or government determine we had zero influence from outside cultures. Sure you could prove maybe one day we had the ability to create the pyramids but that does not disprove us getting the knowledge.  There is zero way at all where anyone with any degree could prove we have not been contacted or influenced by exterestrial life.  In fact it is more of a conspiracy to say it is "not possible" then to say it is as their is accounts in human history which give us the impression we actually have had interaction to some degree.

 

All the evidence even if inaccurate points to yes we have been influenced or helped by another species. You could write it off as legends or stories from the past but seeing wide spread stories and evidence across the world in all cultures points to the likelyhood we were.  That or humans use to be really smart and there was such a place as Atlantis would advanced technology. ^^

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, Rush17 said:

I would argue there is more evidence for the concept of alien contact then not. How could any body or government determine we had zero influence from outside cultures. Sure you could prove maybe one day we had the ability to create the pyramids but that does not disprove us getting the knowledge.  There is zero way at all where anyone with any degree could prove we have not been contacted or influenced by exterestrial life.  In fact it is more of a conspiracy to say it is "not possible" then to say it is as their is accounts in human history which give us the impression we actually have had interaction to some degree.

 

All the evidence even if inaccurate points to yes we have been influenced or helped by another species. You could write it off as legends or stories from the past but seeing wide spread stories and evidence across the world in all cultures points to the likelyhood we were.  That or humans use to be really smart and there was such a place as Atlantis would advanced technology. ^^

It's certainly an interesting discussion, but there is no scientific proof of alien intervention, just as there is no scientific proof of a God.  That's why I say it takes faith to believe in either, or both.

[Hugor Hill]

1 hour ago, Aladeen said:

1) I agree completely and I believe we are trying to piece together the puzzle currently. With that said, let say we determine that there is a very advanced Alien civilization through observation of say a Dyson Sphere. Now we can go back and look at all the "evidence" we have here on the planet with fresh eyes with a new knowledge and perspective. 

 

By using HARPS and Kepler we now have observed more than 2000 confirmed extrasolar planets and 10s of thousands more which are highly probable to be planets, with an estimate of 89% of those to be exactly what they are.

 

I personally believe that we will have a smoking gun of life outside of earth coming from Astronomical observation before a smoking gun found here on earth (I actually hope I'm wrong). In my opinion the circumstantial evidence is enough for me to believe that the Ancient Alien Theory holds merit, especially when we couple it with all of the UFO/Alien encounters reported around the world (which if you really look into is pretty overwhelming). If even 1 abduction case turns out to be true in the past then we can say with certainty that aliens exist and they have influenced us in some way or another. 

 

2) Absolutely and in fact it has been theorized that any sufficiently advanced species would at some point utilize the means of consciousness projection to explore the vastness of space rather than their physical beings. This being due to practicality and most likely safety. 

 

If we find a civilization capable of the Dyson Sphere, why would ANY 'evidence' on earth be remotely relevant? Especially the ones that have been mentioned here. All too ancient, don't you think?

 

Re: smoking gun, we are kind of inevitably talking about two very different standards of smoking gun. For life through astronomical observation, oxygen will do. And oxygen will not be too too hard to find on one of these Kepler planets, I imagine. For alien life on earth, a smoking gun would be more like a plasma rifle, or any kind of unexplainable artifact, which I personally think if can be found, would've been found by now.

 

 

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, Hugor Hill said:

 

If we find a civilization capable of the Dyson Sphere, why would ANY 'evidence' on earth be remotely relevant? Especially the ones that have been mentioned here. All too ancient, don't you think?

 

Re: smoking gun, we are kind of inevitably talking about two very different standards of smoking gun. For life through astronomical observation, oxygen will do. And oxygen will not be too too hard to find on one of these Kepler planets, I imagine. For alien life on earth, a smoking gun would be more like a plasma rifle, or any kind of unexplainable artifact, which I personally think if can be found, would've been found by now.

 

 

But...but...but, wouldn't aliens capable of beyond light speed (even warp speed) travel have the ability to hide their existence from us rather easily?  Even if, by some strange chance, they were discovered we would never really know, because they would travel back in time and mask their discovery.  Again, you just need to have faith, and you will see the truth.  

[Hugor Hill]

1 hour ago, Rush17 said:

I have heard of the water and sand moving technique. The issue is with your qoute tho is your discrediting a belief that cannot be proved wrong. It is theoretically impossible for scientists to prove aliens or beings of another form helped our development as a species. Sure you can argue we made the temples even if I find that challenging to believe given the harsh climate they lived in.

 

Being able to dedicate that many workers for that years to a task like this would mean that society had an abudenace of food, water and supplies to provide the workers of such a project.  Life wasn't as easy as it is todsy unless they solved those issues.  Being in a dessert when some believe it was built makes it less likely. If you follow the signs tho some believe the temples are far older when the dessert was actually a jungle nearly 30,000 years ago in the age of leo.  Some scientists believe the sphix was actually a lion representing the age of leo.  They believe it was later carved into a Pharos face to give them more power and prestige.  

 

But the truth of the matter is their is significant evidence in religion, ruins, temples, cave paintings, religious art, and tradition that support the concept of influence from an external source.  Scientists can say no no no but there is zero way of proving it not to be at the very least a possibly. There is zero way to say 100% it never happened because there is zero evidence to provide.

 

I believe as a species we should focus in on this evidence and see if we can find a common Link and see if there is more connectedness to this all. Seeing a larger well put together collection of evidence in support of it would actually be the best way of bringing it's likelyhood up or down.  If there are broken links we can see once we amass all the details. My favorite part is where in the Christian art above Jesus and Mary there is a ufo in the sky. 

 

I personally believe we have in some form met higher beings.

The Nile River was one of the most fertile areas on earth. The Egyptian Empire was one of the most powerful human history had ever seen primarily because of the Nile.

 

My standard of proof does not need to be 100%. And for heaven's sake it shouldn't be (with a lot of topics) if we want to get things done and advance our species. I'm good with 95% and let logic and common sense 'prove' the rest of the way, if logic and common sense make sense (at least to me). I certainly don't need the bolded part. Its not practical.

 

 

 

 

[Hugor Hill]

1 hour ago, Rush17 said:

It took us until 2018 to figure out 95% of it with our advanced math and science.  Are you then saying we lost those skills and abilities or a lifeform more advanced then us created them?

No. We figured out how THEY figured it out with their limited knowledge.

 

[Aladeen]

31 minutes ago, Hugor Hill said:

 

If we find a civilization capable of the Dyson Sphere, why would ANY 'evidence' on earth be remotely relevant? Especially the ones that have been mentioned here. All too ancient, don't you think?

 

Re: smoking gun, we are kind of inevitably talking about two very different standards of smoking gun. For life through astronomical observation, oxygen will do. And oxygen will not be too too hard to find on one of these Kepler planets, I imagine. For alien life on earth, a smoking gun would be more like a plasma rifle, or any kind of unexplainable artifact, which I personally think if can be found, would've been found by now.

 

 

Because the question then moves towards if they are out there... have they been here? Have they influenced our civilization's evolution? Still important questions just not as important of the big one that was answered before them.

 

The problem with that is when we look at things beyond stone almost nothing lasts longer than 10,000 years, it all breaks down. What is the earliest metallurgic items we have found? Generally pertaining to the mesolithic era approximately 10,000 years ago. 

 

Say we all disappeared today, in 10,000 years all of our buildings would be effectively gone or at least unrecognizable. Things such as cars, plastics, metals, glass, silicon based products all of it wouldn't survive for people to learn about us in the distant future. Guess what they would be looking at if they studied us... Monuments like Mt.Rushmore, Or cenotaphs and memorials, sculpted rocks etc. Those are the things that they would have to use to gain knowledge about who we are. They wouldn't have the ability to access our internet, they wouldn't see our technological achievements like our ability to fly, just our ability to work with stone. 

 

So not finding advanced technology that was left here millions of years ago makes sense... it doesn't last.

[Rush17]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

It's certainly an interesting discussion, but there is no scientific proof of alien intervention, just as there is no scientific proof of a God.  That's why I say it takes faith to believe in either, or both.

Evidence is a funny thing. There is no concrete evidence of intervention; but there is supporting evidence for the theory. it's just whether or not those accounts are factual. 

 

Its fun we can have this type of discourse and explore all the various avenues of  the theory.  Either way all of us need to have faith in his or her theory to truly believe in it.

 

I agree with the principal of your point though. How can one prove they were here or not. All we can do is combine all the accounts of evidence and see if there are any commonalities or links. Heck they could be different. For all we know different species visited us at different times. How does one go to prove or disprove such an argument.  

 

I wish we could learn more. Be a great experience for humanity if we found out we had. We will only get the answer through world cooperation. Some countries like China want to keep their hidden temples and their contents secret. Until we can come together and explore all the accounts we will never know.

[Hugor Hill]

15 minutes ago, Aladeen said:

Because the question then moves towards if they are out there... have they been here? Have they influenced our civilization's evolution? Still important questions just not as important of the big one that was answered before them.

 

The problem with that is when we look at things beyond stone almost nothing lasts longer than 10,000 years, it all breaks down. What is the earliest metallurgic items we have found? Generally pertaining to the mesolithic era approximately 10,000 years ago. 

 

Say we all disappeared today, in 10,000 years all of our buildings would be effectively gone or at least unrecognizable. Things such as cars, plastics, metals, glass, silicon based products all of it wouldn't survive for people to learn about us in the distant future. Guess what they would be looking at if they studied us... Monuments like Mt.Rushmore, Or cenotaphs and memorials, sculpted rocks etc. Those are the things that they would have to use to gain knowledge about who we are. They wouldn't have the ability to access our internet, they wouldn't see our technological achievements like our ability to fly, just our ability to work with stone. 

 

So not finding advanced technology that was left here millions of years ago makes sense... it doesn't last.

 

 

And this is 'decompose', not a total and complete breakdown at the molecular level.

But we all know banana peels can last longer than 10 days...... lol!

 

 

 

 

[Down by the River]

4 hours ago, Aladeen said:

it's a statement that totally can be made... God (one singular omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent living being that created everything we know) Vs. Some life that exists somewhere off of the planet earth.

 

 

Saying someone is wrong is going off of sheer math alone. The only stupidity is someone who would ignore the hard numbers. 

You have it completely backwards. The numbers are what tell us that we cannot make statements about whether the probability of God is greater or less than the probability of Aliens. 

 

You can talk about logically what is more likely: that a single omnipotent being exists or that aliens of some form exist. Sure it is the latter. However, the idea that this is somehow related to math is false because you cannot provide a specific probability for either of the two. 

 

Again, I don't have a problem with your ideas, I have a problem with the idea of presenting an idea as backed by math. It is not. 

[Aladeen]

30 minutes ago, Hugor Hill said:

 

 

And this is 'decompose', not a total and complete breakdown at the molecular level.

But we all know banana peels can last longer than 10 days...... lol!

 

 

 

 

I get it, I do but Lets say you have a plastic keyboard like the one I am typing on right now... In 10,000 years the plastic will still exist unless melted somehow by fire etc. but there would be no way to determine what it actually is or what it's use was for. And what if I increased that time span to 250,000,000 years... it would most likely be broken up completely and just look like sand particles that are natural to the environment. So as far as a plasma rifle goes if some Ancient Aliens dropped one on earth 15 million years ago the odds of it remaining intact through the eons would be almost zero even if all the individual molecules existed still and never decomposed. 

[Aladeen]

34 minutes ago, Down by the River said:

You have it completely backwards. The numbers are what tell us that we cannot make statements about whether the probability of God is greater or less than the probability of Aliens. 

 

You can talk about logically what is more likely: that a single omnipotent being exists or that aliens of some form exist. Sure it is the latter. However, the idea that this is somehow related to math is false because you cannot provide a specific probability for either of the two. 

 

Again, I don't have a problem with your ideas, I have a problem with the idea of presenting an idea as backed by math. It is not. 

100 Billion Trillion star systems in the observable universe.... give or take

 

Life found in 100% of the star systems we have explored... exactly. 

 

There is mathematics that can figure this out (just because we are unable to do so doesn't mean it can't be done)

 

Vs.

 

Being who is everything and everywhere 

 

Mathematics was created within the system of an omnipresent God, assuming God exists and therefore cannot be used to calculate God. The existence of mathematics would therefore be a consequence of God's own existence and cannot exist independently of such a being, whereas math can exist whether or not there are aliens and therefore the ability to use it to calculate the existence of aliens is feasible. 

[Warhippy]

2 hours ago, Aladeen said:

Don't make me fling my poop at you. 

That's it

 

No lice check for you!  I'll go eat off of Sid's back instead

[Down by the River]

36 minutes ago, Aladeen said:

100 Billion Trillion star systems in the observable universe.... give or take

 

Life found in 100% of the star systems we have explored... exactly. 

 

There is mathematics that can figure this out (just because we are unable to do so doesn't mean it can't be done)

 

Vs.

 

Being who is everything and everywhere 

 

Mathematics was created within the system of an omnipresent God, assuming God exists and therefore cannot be used to calculate God. The existence of mathematics would therefore be a consequence of God's own existence and cannot exist independently of such a being, whereas math can exist whether or not there are aliens and therefore the ability to use it to calculate the existence of aliens is feasible. 

Exactly. We are currently unable to do so, so we shouldn't pretend that we already have. 

[bishopshodan]

There are no Aliens in this universe.

They pop in from the neighbouring ones.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/multiverse-alien-life-universe-theory-idea-proof-dark-energy-planets-stars-a8351016.html

 

Edit:

Fun topic though. 

I think modern science/p[hysics should be in all these sky fairy/alien/religious debates now.

Musk thinks we're living in a simulation ( I kinda do too)

Hawking's last paper was on the idea that a vast amount of universes exist at the same time due to the extremely fast expansion after the big bang messing around on the quantum level ( yeah thats my armchair take on it ) - multiverse.

Its a funny time to live, science is telling us things that we don't want to believe, or cant imagine. No wonder some people are becoming Flat Earther's etc... A simpler time.... Make Reality Make Sense Again!  MRMSA!

 

 

[Hugor Hill]

1 hour ago, Aladeen said:

I get it, I do but Lets say you have a plastic keyboard like the one I am typing on right now... In 10,000 years the plastic will still exist unless melted somehow by fire etc. but there would be no way to determine what it actually is or what it's use was for. And what if I increased that time span to 250,000,000 years... it would most likely be broken up completely and just look like sand particles that are natural to the environment. So as far as a plasma rifle goes if some Ancient Aliens dropped one on earth 15 million years ago the odds of it remaining intact through the eons would be almost zero even if all the individual molecules existed still and never decomposed. 

You are stretching it... lol!

Yeah you are theoretically correct. How would we know if aliens didn't drop us anything 10 million years ago beyond the fact that no evidence would've survived that long? It's possible, because we can't 'prove' otherwise.

 

But for all intends and purposes, how is this theoretical possibility of any use to us? 

 

The evidence overwhelmingly supports the thesis that aliens had no influence on our human civilization. The theoretical possibility that they had visited us is just that, theoretically possible.

[JM_]

4 hours ago, Aladeen said:

Well I think there is a lot of evidence out there but confirmation of evidence is almost nil.

 

So there are 2 options when it comes to that:

 

1) The evidence is nothing and therefore deserves no comment about it by the powers that be. 

2) The evidence is something and there is an active policy to deny it, ignore it, ridicule it or bury it because of a specific agenda. 

 

Government Officials who have admitted to aliens existence do exist:

 

Paul Hellyer - Former Canadian Minister of Defence

Dmitry Medvedev - Former Russian Prime Minister/President

Ronald Reagan - Former President of the United States - Had an eyewitness account of a UFO 1974 and repeatedly mentioned the threat of alien invasions even to the UN.

 

Another intriguing person claiming Extraterrestrial Contact is 

 

Luis Elezondo - Former Director of the Pentagon's UFO Program (a program they have admitted to) 

 

I don't know that I'd be taking Hellyer too seriously - he sounds pretty nutty: https://www.cnet.com/news/canadas-ex-defense-minister-aliens-would-give-us-more-tech-if-wed-stop-wars/

[J-23]

1 hour ago, bishopshodan said:

There are no Aliens in this universe.

They pop in from the neighbouring ones.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/multiverse-alien-life-universe-theory-idea-proof-dark-energy-planets-stars-a8351016.html

 

Edit:

Fun topic though. 

I think modern science/p[hysics should be in all these sky fairy/alien/religious debates now.

Musk thinks we're living in a simulation ( I kinda do too)

Hawking's last paper was on the idea that a vast amount of universes exist at the same time due to the extremely fast expansion after the big bang messing around on the quantum level ( yeah thats my armchair take on it ) - multiverse.

Its a funny time to live, science is telling us things that we don't want to believe, or cant imagine. No wonder some people are becoming Flat Earther's etc... A simpler time.... Make Reality Make Sense Again!  MRMSA!

 

 

String Theory is the best!

 

 

[Hugor Hill]

Precious time: