[Trade] Lightning trade J.T. Miller to Canucks for Marek Mazanec, 2019 3rd-round pick, 2020 conditional 1st-round pick

[oldnews]

6 minutes ago, CaptainLinden16 said:

Tanev isn't what she used to be and Stecher is a darling of the fan base but a very limited hockey player.  In fact they are both darlings of the fanbase, but they are not top 4 RHD.  I see your point if the guy at the top of the depth chart is Hedman/Karlsson, but not if its Myers...

 

There is no offense and they are small and soft as a group.  

 

I really like Miller.  Great contract, Great numbers, Only 26, versatile, physical, etc...I just don't see Tampa in a massive hurry to get rid of him.  You get the RHD first and circle back to Miller later.  You have to prioritize.  I think you would agree that RHD is the biggest gap on the roster. 

Actually you don't see the point at all.  Karlsson was not a fit here - you sign him and you still need to add some heaviness to the right side.

 

You call them small and soft - and propose Karlsson?  It's up there with all the Barrie, Gostisbehere etc ideas (I call them ideas because I don't think they warrant 'rumours').   You have a problem with Myers - I'm not sure what your expectations are tbh - but there are a whole range of UFA vets that could be viable bridges in the process.  Don't expect a finished product by July 1st.

 

I don't agree with you at all.  It is June 23rd.  You are panicking as if it's the 11th hour - and you're making a bizarre assumption that a RHD had to come before a LW.  It makes literally no sense unless you're stuck in the strange assumption that it was either a LW or a RHD.  Try a bit of patience - it's June 23rd. 

[appleboy]

3 hours ago, coryberg said:

Same as last year? So you think we make a trade to get Guddy back and re-sign MDZ? Highly unlikely!

 

Is that one addition Quinn hughes? No? Maybe you think he is Utica bound? Even more unlikely.

 

You aren't thinking JB will get us a UFA or trade for another D? That is very unlikely.

 

You don't think OJ will make strides and force himself onto the roster at some point this year? I wouldn't bet against it.

Who did we end the year with?   Plus maybe one. 

It would be nice to see this elusive OJ we all talk about.

Leave room for Tryamkin towards the end of the year.

[CaptainLinden16]

Just now, oldnews said:

Actually you don't see the point at all.  Karlsson was not a fit here - you sign him and you still need to add some heaviness to the right side.

 

You call them small and soft - and propose Karlsson?  It's up there with all the Barrie, Gostisbehere etc ideas (I call them ideas because I don't think they warrant 'rumours').   You have a problem with Myers - I'm not sure what your expectations are tbh - but there are a whole range of UFA vets that could be viable bridges in the process.  Don't expect a finished product by July 1st.

 

I don't agree with you at all.  It is June 23rd.  You are panicking as if it's the 11th hour - and you're making a bizarre assumption that a RHD had to come before a LW.  It makes literally no sense unless you're stuck in the strange assumption that it was either a LW or a RHD.  Try a bit of patience - it's June 23rd. 

I am not panicking at all.  What I am advocating is that there should have been PATIENCE to move the 1st round pick.  Wait it out.  Miller is going nowhere.  If that is the best deal possible then circle back to it.  Why not try and get a young quality RHD first?  I am not proposing Karlsson.  I simply said if you had an elite player at the top of the depth chart then Tanev and Stecher look fine.  I mean Karlsson/Hedman play 25+ minutes a night.  You wouldn't really care that much that Stecher and Tanev are playing 17.  If you get a guy who comes in and plays 22 then you need 20 and 18 that't more than what I would like to see those two playing.

[Gurn]

11 minutes ago, CaptainLinden16 said:

I am of the opinion that the draft is largely a crap shoot.

So why so annoyed that Vancouver traded a crap shoot pick for player just entering his prime?

[CaptainLinden16]

Just now, gurn said:

So why so annoyed that Vancouver traded a crap shoot pick for player just entering his prime?

Why is it that I have to repeat this adnoseaum.  This is the most valuable tradeable asset the Canucks had.  You are not trading the core.  This is the piece that couldve landed a top 4 RHD.  This was needed over a LW.

[oldnews]

10 minutes ago, CaptainLinden16 said:

I am not panicking at all.  What I am advocating is that there should have been PATIENCE to move the 1st round pick.  Wait it out.  Miller is going nowhere.  If that is the best deal possible then circle back to it.  Why not try and get a young quality RHD first?  I am not proposing Karlsson.  I simply said if you had an elite player at the top of the depth chart then Tanev and Stecher look fine.  I mean Karlsson/Hedman play 25+ minutes a night.  You wouldn't really care that much that Stecher and Tanev are playing 17.  If you get a guy who comes in and plays 22 then you need 20 and 18 that't more than what I would like to see those two playing.

what is your problem with Myers?

 

What would be the problem with a Stralman, Hainsey etc - veteran placeholders that could be had for short term, reasonable cap?

Why do you assume the team has no tradeable assets left?

What stops them from signing one of these placeholders and dealing Tanev - ie for a young RHD like Mayfield on a fairly deep and young NYI right side?

Have you looked at the actual list of UFA D?   And add to the context, a relative cap tightening while the Canucks have lots of flexibility to work with?

Is it really necessary to finish the blueline in the near future?  

They are in a good spot.  They are far more free to shop the UFA market - or take a contract - than most teams.

It's a time where their leverage actually increases.   The Miller deal changes none of it.

Ristolainen

Myers

Dillon

Stralman

Hainsey

Benn

Kronwall

Girardi

Engelland

Chiarot

Gunnarsson

Petrovic

Sbisa

Edited June 23, 2019 by oldnews

[sonoman]

1 hour ago, BlueDragon23 said:

You want to live in the past like the Oilers management, then good for you.

Despite not winning the Cup, the Canucks have been very successful. Back to back Presidents Trophies, 2 final appearances, multiple division/conference wins. It’s not about the past, it’s about the present.

3 appearances 

[Kanukfanatic]

9 minutes ago, CaptainLinden16 said:

I am not panicking at all.  What I am advocating is that there should have been PATIENCE to move the 1st round pick.  Wait it out.  Miller is going nowhere.  If that is the best deal possible then circle back to it.  Why not try and get a young quality RHD first?  I am not proposing Karlsson.  I simply said if you had an elite player at the top of the depth chart then Tanev and Stecher look fine.  I mean Karlsson/Hedman play 25+ minutes a night.  You wouldn't really care that much that Stecher and Tanev are playing 17.  If you get a guy who comes in and plays 22 then you need 20 and 18 that't more than what I would like to see those two playing.

How do you know multiple teams were not in on him.

 

I am excited to watch JT Miller play with Petey and Boeser this year. Should be fun to watch.

[CaptainLinden16]

Just now, oldnews said:

what is your problem with Myers?

 

What would be the problem with a Stralman, Hainsey etc - veteran placeholders that could be had for short term, reasonable cap?

Why do you assume the team has no tradeable assets left?

What stops them from signing one of these placeholders and dealing Tanev - ie for a young RHD like Mayfield on a fairly deep and young NYI right side?

Have you looked at the actual list of UFA D?   And add to the context, a relative cap tightening while the Canucks have lots of flexibility to work with?

Is it really necessary to finish the blueline in the near future?  

They are in a good spot.  They are far more free to shop the UFA market - or take a contract - than most teams.

It's a time where their leverage actually increases.   The Miller deal changes none of it.

Myers is the top free agent left who plays defense.  He is going to get PAID.  He is a solid player but this will 100% be a bad deal.  I do really like Starlman and I am curious to see what the numbers will end up for him.  Hainsey I have zero interest in.  Edler Starlman could be very solid.  The idea here is that you wait until free agency starts.  You throw out your offers and see what comes back.  If you get nothing then you don't trade the 1st for a LW.  If you do then have at it.  There is unnecessary uncertainty by doing it this way.  You also are more likely to over pay now.

 

I think it is safe to assume short of trading one of the core that the 1st round pick was the most valuable piece the Canucks had in a trade.  I think it is also safe to assume that a trade for a top 4 RHD will be very difficult now without it.  If Hutton+Sutter gets you something good then great; but I doubt it highly.

 

I get that maybe something better will come along later.  BUT you don't have the 1st round pick to trade for it anymore.  That is exactly what I am saying.  You don't have to finish anything now.  You can wait it out until the opportunity arises.  You cannot seize that opportunity if you don't have the trade chips necessary to make the deal.

[CaptainLinden16]

Just now, Kanukfanatic said:

How do you know multiple teams were not in on him.

 

I am excited to watch JT Miller play with Petey and Boeser this year. Should be fun to watch.

maybe you are right.  Maybe he was gone tomorrow if Benning didn't scoop him up.  I would have preferred being patience even if it meant missing out on Miller ultimately.

[oldnews]

1 minute ago, CaptainLinden16 said:

Myers is the top free agent left who plays defense.  He is going to get PAID.  He is a solid player but this will 100% be a bad deal.  I do really like Starlman and I am curious to see what the numbers will end up for him.  Hainsey I have zero interest in.  Edler Starlman could be very solid.  The idea here is that you wait until free agency starts.  You throw out your offers and see what comes back.  If you get nothing then you don't trade the 1st for a LW.  If you do then have at it.  There is unnecessary uncertainty by doing it this way.  You also are more likely to over pay now.

 

I think it is safe to assume short of trading one of the core that the 1st round pick was the most valuable piece the Canucks had in a trade.  I think it is also safe to assume that a trade for a top 4 RHD will be very difficult now without it.  If Hutton+Sutter gets you something good then great; but I doubt it highly.

 

I get that maybe something better will come along later.  BUT you don't have the 1st round pick to trade for it anymore.  That is exactly what I am saying.  You don't have to finish anything now.  You can wait it out until the opportunity arises.  You cannot seize that opportunity if you don't have the trade chips necessary to make the deal.

Well you keep saying what is going to happen, what it is safe to 'assume',  while assuming the team has nothing left to get it done - and I find the sum of your perspective to be unfounded panic that isn't necessarily thinking it out.

[Kanukfanatic]

Just now, CaptainLinden16 said:

maybe you are right.  Maybe he was gone tomorrow if Benning didn't scoop him up.  I would have preferred being patience even if it meant missing out on Miller ultimately.

I would not have been happy knowing Benning had a chance to get JT Miller and then waited on it, losing the chance.

 

This team has needed more top 6 players for years just as it has needed more top 4 D for years.

 

I am very happy that Benning got Miller. I am so tired of having to watch Petey or Bo play with sub par players wasting their best years. Watching granlund or goldy in the top 6 is painful for me. 

[CaptainLinden16]

Just now, oldnews said:

Well you keep saying what is going to happen, what it is safe to 'assume',  while assuming the team has nothing left to get it done - and I find the sum of your perspective to be unfounded panic that isn't necessarily thinking it out.

You don't think it is reasonable to assume that the 1st round pick was the most valuable piece outside of trading (Horvat, Boeser, Hughes, Petterson)?

 

I would prefer not to trade Joulevi and Virtanen.  Demko I am fine with trading, but he isn't enough to be a center piece in a trade for a top 4 RHD.

 

Its not about this year.  It's about the future makeup of the team.  A valuable trade chip was lost adding a very solid player playing the wrong position.  I am not panicked so you can stop repeating it.  Repeating it doesnt make anything true.  I am simply frustrated at the lack of patience.  Jim won the deal when it comes to value, but he lost the deal when it comes to building the team.  To me, he ignores this aspect of his job all too often.  

 

[CaptainLinden16]

Just now, Kanukfanatic said:

I would not have been happy knowing Benning had a chance to get JT Miller and then waited on it, losing the chance.

 

This team has needed more top 6 players for years just as it has needed more top 4 D for years.

 

I am very happy that Benning got Miller. I am so tired of having to watch Petey or Bo play with sub par players wasting their best years. Watching granlund or goldy in the top 6 is painful for me. 

Goldy looked really slick with Petterson for a while until he got benched into loosing all faith in his ability to play hockey.  Granlund, who I want to like desperately, does look like an all-star playing for HK Zurich and not the Canucks.  I think he is heading overseas shortly.  Petterson is a long way away from his best years.  He is going to be much better in 5 years when he actually resembles a man and not a stick figure.

[oldnews]

1 minute ago, CaptainLinden16 said:

You don't think it is reasonable to assume that the 1st round pick was the most valuable piece outside of trading (Horvat, Boeser, Hughes, Petterson)?

 

I would prefer not to trade Joulevi and Virtanen.  Demko I am fine with trading, but he isn't enough to be a center piece in a trade for a top 4 RHD.

 

Its not about this year.  It's about the future makeup of the team.  A valuable trade chip was lost adding a very solid player playing the wrong position.  I am not panicked so you can stop repeating it.  Repeating it doesnt make anything true.  I am simply frustrated at the lack of patience.  Jim won the deal when it comes to value, but he lost the deal when it comes to building the team.  To me, he ignores this aspect of his job all too often.  

 

You don't have to trade a 1st to get a RHD, period.

 

Yes  -  a RHD is as necessary as a LW - but you're ignoring the options/variables involved.  Miller is not simply a LW - he's a pwf, a center, and a rarer asset than a RHD, certainly at this point.

 

PWF options on the market vs RHD options on the market.  Simple as that.

 

They won't have a problem finding a suitable RHD this summer.   Finding a pwf like Miller - more challenging imo - and a justifiable expenditure to complement the two best young forwards this team has had since it drafted the Sedins.

 

You're too hung up on one future 1st having been their only 'tradeable asset' - or a RHD having had to come before a LW. 

 

 

 

 

[Kanukfanatic]

2 minutes ago, CaptainLinden16 said:

Goldy looked really slick with Petterson for a while until he got benched into loosing all faith in his ability to play hockey.  Granlund, who I want to like desperately, does look like an all-star playing for HK Zurich and not the Canucks.  I think he is heading overseas shortly.  Petterson is a long way away from his best years.  He is going to be much better in 5 years when he actually resembles a man and not a stick figure.

Maybe so. But I am still sick of putting fringe players into our top 6 to play with our best players such as Bo.  Miller gives us options. Hopefully JB can get us one more top 6 forward in UFA along with some help on the back end.

 

Edit: I have no interest in this team keeping goldy around.

Edited June 23, 2019 by Kanukfanatic

[86Viking]

2 hours ago, danaimo said:

And this is the root of the problem.  Ott gave up a 1st get Duchene .  They flipped him to CBJ a year later and got the first round pick back (along with spare pieces).  While at OTT he was a point per game player.  How was this bad for OTT?

The player that COL got with that pick has done nothing yet and unless he plays 700+ games and puts up 500+ pts, COL lose that trade.  People are seduced by picks and over value them, especially first round picks.

It is bad because that 1st they gave up was Bowen Byram. I understand they got a 1st back, but that pick had the chance of being Hughes...think the NHL did a solid making sure that didnt happen like they do by making sure Vancouver falls back every time

[CaptainLinden16]

Just now, oldnews said:

You don't have to trade a 1st to get a RHD, period.

 

Yes  -  a RHD is as necessary as a LW - but you're ignoring the options/variables involved.  Miller is not simply a LW - he's a pwf, a center, and a rarer asset than a RHD, certainly at this point.

 

PWF options on the market vs RHD options on the market.  Simple as that.

 

They won't have a problem finding a suitable RHD this summer.   Finding a pwf like Miller - more challenging imo - and a justifiable expenditure to complement the two best young forwards this team has had since it drafted the Sedins.

 

You're too hung up on one future 1st having been their only 'tradeable asset' - or a RHD having had to come before a LW. 

 

 

 

 

why not sign Anders Lee for 7x7 then trade a 1st, Gaudette and Hutton for Risto?  Or whatever variables it would take.

 

More importantly, you can control the outcome.  If you cant sign Myers, Lee or whomever then you adjust your trade target.  Now that you have made the trade you have to laser in on the free agents.  This means paying top dollar and maybe still missing out.  You loose your flexibility.  You increase your odds of making a bad decision.  

[Pavel Luongo]

Miller Horvat Pearson

Panerin Peterson Boser

 

Deadly

[Baggins]

10 hours ago, khay said:

Some fans are mad because of the risk factor. Look at Ottawa, they were within one game of SCF, so they traded for Duchene to help them over the top. Well they got to pick 4th overall in two consecutive years and one of those 4th overall isn't going to be playing for them.

Either way we get the player now and they have to wait up to two years. I don't mind that gamble.