[Discussion] Moving on from Jim Benning

[AV.]

4 minutes ago, Petey_BOI said:

myers was making 5.5 million in cap in 2018/2019 i will compare him with him. yup, cap went up so the raise is logical.  beagle, didnt really like his signing, think hes over paid by a million. roussel we were paying for a hard to play against 3rd liner who score 25-30 points, and was a positive +/- player on a losing team. thats worth about 2.5 million.

The extra 500ks add up though.  Shave off 500k from Myers, Beagle, Roussel, etc and you can get a pretty decent player at an affordable price from the cap space you save.

 

For example, Nick Cousins had a great year and followed that up by having a great playoffs, including a fairly chippy series against us.  He just signed for 2 years at 1.5M million in Nashville.  That's a great value signing for the bottom six.  He'll get Nashville around 20 ish points, be able to play in all situations, etc but he won't handicap them from signing their core guys.  That's responsible.

 

Same thing with Florida and Carter Verhagae.  Many more just from this off-season.

[-DLC-]

35 minutes ago, Alain Vigneault said:

Deb, people keep bringing up Stevie Y in conversation.  If I was bring up, let's say, David Poile or somebody else, then perhaps I would be in the wrong.  For the most part, I'm simply responding or continuing my previously made points on Tampa Bay/Stevie Y

 

Now, to your point, I agree that you need two teams to make a deal and that the core's "best days" (so to speak) were behind them.  My point is that the options did exist.  I don't blame Benning for Kesler's deal, save for choosing Sbisa over Vatanen/Theodore.  He was handcuffed and did fairly well.

The Hamhuis deal was complicated because Dan only wanted two teams but the option him to move him was there, even if it wasn't ideal. 

The Burrows return was fine too.  I liked Dahlen's profile at the time.

The Hansen return actually wasn't too bad.  He got Goldobin and a 4th (would've turned to a 1st).  That's great value.  Both him and Burrows were great trades and nobody complained about them.

Edler is moot because he's still here.  Maybe we speed things up with an Edler move but he loved being a Canuck and demonstrated that by returning for 2 more years when he could have gotten more elsewhere.

Bieksa we got a 2nd.  Great deal.  But really bad when we dumped that second with Bonino for Sutter.

Eriksson was a legitimate top 6 player.  Beagle, Ferland, and Roussel were bottom-six players.  Tyler Myers was a #5 defenceman in Winnipeg.   What's hard to see here?

 

It has nothing to do with money and everything to do with their actual quality.

Quality in ?

There are different components and they're also ever changing.  What's hard to accept is how JB, upon his entrance, was expected to "know" what would pan out/work best and make decisions accordingly.  He had to get a feel for what he was working with and map out a plan. They started to retool, then rethought that.  The plan shifted so it wasn't like there was A vision and we can determine good/bad based on it.  Things shifted and we're still in the final putting pieces in place stage.  Yes, it's limited due to some handcuffs from deals that didn't work out as planned but not many teams barrel along without facing some challenges.  

I ask that you judge JB's tenure when it's done, not midway through when he's trying to navigate the weirdness of covid and all that that brings and really hasn't completed his project yet.  It's still in the works.  I like what he's doing and you have to see where we're at now, which is looking at a fairly bright future.  He gets at least part of the credit for that...especially if we're assigning blame. 

 

So if it's "nothing to do with money" why did you lead in with a discussion that included anchor contracts?  I mean, if you're just talking term, fine....but most are concerned about the $$ amount when discussing Loui, etc.  So it is about money.

 

[King Heffy]

7 minutes ago, Alain Vigneault said:

I think I forgot to respond to this.

 

Anways, I agree with you on the effects of role players,  I just don't believe you have to pay 3M+ on these guys, at least not that much on 4-5 of them at a time.

 

Pittsburgh had Matt Cullen making less than 1M during their cup runs.  Tampa Bay had just Bogosian, Schenn, Maroon all making around 1M.  These guys exist for cheap and don't all need to be signed for tons of money.

Those guys took less to get a legit chance at a cup.  We were  not in any position to give anyone that opportunity, mostly due to horrific state Benning's idiot of a predecessor left the franchise in.

[Bad_BOI_pete]

@Alain Vigneault

 

so what im getting from you is, we must fill our roster with plugs to win. and these plugs want to play on a losing team right? not sign for cheap to compete for a cup with a contender? its just magical christmas land where you live, can i come?

[Bad_BOI_pete]

dont worry we can end the messages now and start new arguments in other bashing threads.

please email this message to gm. sign better players for cheaper, it's easy. 

 

all we had to do in the past was to convince people to make min salary on a losing team in a canadian market. those signings happen all the time right? its just so simple right?

[AV.]

Just now, debluvscanucks said:

Quality in ?

There are different components and they're also ever changing.  What's hard to accept is how JB, upon his entrance, was expected to "know" what would pan out/work best and make decisions accordingly.  He had to get a feel for what he was working with and map out a plan. They started to retool, then rethought that.  The plan shifted so it wasn't like there was A vision and we can determine good/bad based on it.  Things shifted and we're still in the final putting pieces in place stage.  Yes, it's limited due to some handcuffs from deals that didn't work out as planned but not many teams barrel along without facing some challenges.  

I ask that you judge JB's tenure when it's done, not midway through when he's trying to navigate the weirdness of covid and all that that brings and really hasn't completed his project yet.  It's still in the works.  I like what he's doing and you have to see where we're at now, which is looking at a fairly bright future.  He gets at least part of the credit for that...especially if we're assigning blame. 

Quality in what they bring to the table.  Eriksson was a 60 point guy and arguably the best two-way winger after Marian Hossa for a good while.  Him getting 6M was a decent deal because other teams would have paid just as much if he was interested in going there.  Beagle and Roussel may have been great energy guys and beloved locker room people but you don't commit so much of your cap to those guys. 

 

All that the second paragraph proves is that Jim Benning's been a very lucky to guy to have been given the amount of backing and leniency he has from ownership.  GMs don't normally get 6+ years to try their hand at success.  They haven't in this market in the past and they haven't elsewhere.

 

Again, that's a luxury to ask for Benning.  Gillis knew it was time to rebuild and wasn't given time for it.  Nonis only had three seasons and barely had time to see how his Luongo acquisition would work.  Same with Burke and the Sedins.  Ideally, all GMs should be given time to see how their teams come together but that's not how it works.

 

10 minutes ago, Petey_BOI said:

@Alain Vigneault

 

so what im getting from you is, we must fill our roster with plugs to win. and these plugs want to play on a losing team right? not sign for cheap to compete for a cup with a contender? its just magical christmas land where you live, can i come?

Lol I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

Anyways, my point is that you can acquire character/depth/bottom six guys without mortgaging the rest of your team.  Every team is able to that and we haven't.

 

If Pittsburgh and Tampa Bay are bad examples, then look at Detroit and the contracts they just gave out to Stetcher/Namestnikov/Merrill.  Hardly "plugs" and hardly guys that will screw them over cap-wise.

[AV.]

24 minutes ago, King Heffy said:

Those guys took less to get a legit chance at a cup.  We were  not in any position to give anyone that opportunity, mostly due to horrific state Benning's idiot of a predecessor left the franchise in.

If you're trying to imply that Schenn, Bogosian, Cullen, etc would have earned 3M elsewhere on a "non-contending" team, I don't know what to tell you.

[Bad_BOI_pete]

2 minutes ago, Alain Vigneault said:

Quality in what they bring to the table.  Eriksson was a 60 point guy and arguably the best two-way winger after Marian Hossa for a good while.  Him getting 6M was a decent deal because other teams would have paid just as much if he was interested in going there.  Beagle and Roussel may have been great energy guys and beloved locker room people but you don't commit so much of your cap to those guys. 

 

All that the second paragraph proves is that Jim Benning's been a very lucky to guy to have been given the amount of backing and leniency he has from ownership.  GMs don't normally get 6+ years to try their hand at success.  They haven't in this market in the past and they haven't elsewhere.

 

Again, that's a luxury to ask for Benning.  Gillis knew it was time to rebuild and wasn't given time for it.  Nonis only had three seasons and barely had time to see how his Luongo acquisition would work.  Same with Burke and the Sedins.  Ideally, all GMs should be given time to see how their teams come together but that's not how it works.

 

Lol I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

Anyways, my point is that you can acquire character/depth/bottom six guys without mortgaging the rest of your team.  Every team is able to that and we haven't.

 

If Pittsburgh and Tampa Bay are bad examples, then look at Detroit and the contracts they just gave out to Stetcher/Namestnikov/Merrill.  Hardly "plugs" and hardly guys that will screw them over cap-wise.

yeah detroit is also a bad example, really. 1. american market. 2. they will likely play more minutes, and promised that. namestiknov made 4 million last year? so fill roster with 2 million dollar players, that score 17 goals and dont play d? the same namestnikov that was on 3 different teams in one year? sign merrill for a mill for a depth player that doesnt make our team? sign stetcher for 2 million, instead of bringing up OJ? just think before you speak

[Dazzle]

1 hour ago, Alain Vigneault said:

Hamhuis and Malholtra got us to a Cup final.  Garrisons was bad, yes.

 

Benning's NTCs got us, at best, a 2nd round playoff appearance.  I have no idea why you say he only gave out one when Roussel, Beagle, Ferland, Holtby, Eriksson all got one.

1 hour ago, Alain Vigneault said:

Gillis handed out NTCs to keep money down and keep the core together.  That's what you do when you have a winning team.

 

Benning handed out NTCs to...attract free-agents?

 

I have not once ever mentioned Eriksson's name save for one post about Benning being unable to move his contracts  I've actually said in other threads that Eriksson was a great signing at the time because he was an elite two-way forward and had chemistry with the Sedins.

 

It sucks when you strike out on a free-agent of Eriksson's calibre because it is truly unlucky.  If you strike on out a free-agent of the Beagle/Roussel calibre, you have only yourself to blame.

58 minutes ago, Alain Vigneault said:

Dazzle, give it a rest.  You keep purposefully twisting my words.

 

NTCs are a good incentive to give out when money is being forfeited or left on the table.  Hansen, Higgins at 2.5M is an example of this because they could have gotten more elsewhere.  Edler at 5M is another.  Garrison was bad but he did leave money on the table.

 

In Benning's case, he paid full dollar amount + gave trade protection to acquire players like Beagle/Roussel/Ferland/Myers in FA.  Those are not guys that anybody in the NH would be giving protection to.

 

 

52 minutes ago, Alain Vigneault said:

So excuses pretty much.

 

Forgot that he "had" to overpay for Beagle/Roussel and couldn't have found cheaper alternatives, you know, like other GMs do.

No need to twist any of your words when you contradict yourself every single time.

The level of hypocrisy from @Alain Vigneault is pure gold.

Edited October 19, 2020 by Dazzle

[Bad_BOI_pete]

7 minutes ago, Alain Vigneault said:

If you're trying to imply that Schenn, Bogosian, Cullen, etc would have earned 3M elsewhere on a "non-contending" team, I don't know what to tell you.

where did he ever mention 3 million. not one place ever, he just stated that these people signed for less to play on a contender, it happens. i heard hf-boards has a special spot for people like you, you'll love it there

[AV.]

Just now, Petey_BOI said:

yeah detroit is also a bad example, really. 1. american market. 2. they will likely play more minutes, and promised that. namestiknov made 4 million last year? so fill roster with 2 million dollar players, that score 17 goals and dont play d? the same namestnikov that was on 3 different teams in one year? sign merrill for a mill for a depth player that doesnt make our team? sign stetcher for 2 million, instead of bringing up OJ? just think before you speak

I, along with every other sensible fan, would take Namestnikov at 2x2M over Beagle/Roussel at 4x3M, Merrill at 1x1M over Benn at 2x2M, and Stetcher at 2x1.7M over Myers at 6x6M, especially if you're a rebuilding team.

[AV.]

3 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

No need to twist any of your words when you contradict yourself every single time.

The level of hypocrisy from @Alain Vigneault is pure gold.

Lol.  You must have missed the part where those FAs TOOK LESS MONEY to come and play.

 

Who took less money to play for Benning's Canucks?

[Dazzle]

Just now, Alain Vigneault said:

I, along with every other sensible fan, would take Namestnikov at 2x2M over Beagle/Roussel at 4x3M, Merrill at 1x1M over Benn at 2x2M, and Stetcher at 2x1.7M over Myers at 6x6M, especially if you're a rebuilding team.

What makes you think Namestikov would have signed here?  Have you considered why people sign cheaper contracts elsewhere? Hint: There's more to it than playing in Vancouver. Get a clue.

[Bad_BOI_pete]

1 minute ago, Alain Vigneault said:

I, along with every other sensible fan, would take Namestnikov at 2x2M over Beagle/Roussel at 4x3M, Merrill at 1x1M over Benn at 2x2M, and Stetcher at 2x1.7M over Myers at 6x6M, especially if you're a rebuilding team.

so go build a time machine then

[Dazzle]

Just now, Alain Vigneault said:

Lol.  You must have missed the part where those FAs TOOK LESS MONEY to come and play.

 

Who took less money to play for Benning's Canucks?

So how do you know Myers didn't leave money on the table? You seem to have information that we don't know. Share it with us. Where's your source? You act like you know what you're talking about when you've been repeatedly exposed for your ignorance.

[Bad_BOI_pete]

1 minute ago, Alain Vigneault said:

Lol.  You must have missed the part where those FAs TOOK LESS MONEY to come and play.

 

Who took less money to play for Benning's Canucks?

your getting it now! absolutely no one, and why should they

[AV.]

1 minute ago, Dazzle said:

What makes you think Namestikov would have signed here?  Have you considered why people sign cheaper contracts elsewhere? Hint: There's more to it than playing in Vancouver. Get a clue.

Doesn't matter if they would sign or not.  The point is that you can offer similar free-agents of the same nature /same clout to those type of deals.

[AV.]

1 minute ago, Dazzle said:

So how do you know Myers didn't leave money on the table? You seem to have information that we don't know. Share it with us. Where's your source? You act like you know what you're talking about when you've been repeatedly exposed for your ignorance.

Because literally everybody in the NHL knows he's a bottom-pairing defender.  He's a useful player, just not at 6M and 6 years.

[Dazzle]

Just now, Alain Vigneault said:

Doesn't matter if they would sign or not.  The point is that you can offer similar free-agents of the same nature /same clout to those type of deals.

It does. Why should a team sign for 2 M in a place they don't want to play when they can get 1.5 M somewhere else, and maybe even tax free? Example cities: Tampa/FLA, Vegas.

[Bad_BOI_pete]

4 minutes ago, Alain Vigneault said:

I, along with every other sensible fan, would take Namestnikov at 2x2M over Beagle/Roussel at 4x3M, Merrill at 1x1M over Benn at 2x2M, and Stetcher at 2x1.7M over Myers at 6x6M, especially if you're a rebuilding team.

you also seem to forget we are in a special year, people are signing for less right now due to covid 19. if you think gm benning should be fired because he didnt plan for covid-19 you should start a riot downtown with all your basher friends, ps dont forget to wear a mask