[Rumour] J.T. Miller Trade/Contract Talks

[BPA]

Just now, mll said:

They can't talk to him before the draft though because he's not yet in the final year of his deal - 5th overall for a 1-year rental seems expensive.

Yeah.  

But maybe PHI would be willing to gamble or is confident they can persuade him to sign an extension. 

[NucknAsia]

1 minute ago, mll said:

They can't talk to him before the draft though because he's not yet in the final year of his deal - 5th overall for a 1-year rental seems expensive.

Agents can talk and always do...how do you think trades are made where a player signs an extension right after the 'window' opens to re sign? It's because quiet discussions were already held in private.

[Alflives]

22 minutes ago, NucknAsia said:

I think JR is always going to say that regardless, not for the fans, for the team. He is setting a bar high, telling the team, we will not accept any steps back and that's on you. Yes losing Miller will hurt, but he's sending a message to Bo, Petey, Quinn,Boeser, (assuming all will be back), that they are now the leaders and you have to stop leading from behind, waiting for someone else to be 'in charge'. You guys are in charge, this is your team, you are the core, that is what he is signally. He is telling them directly you have to come back and be better. What is available on offer for Miller will dictate what we get back in terms of NHL ready players or not.

Ie, do you think JR would turn down say Brandt Clarke, Alex Turcotte, and Helge Grans / or a first rounder over Marino and Kapanen as a hypothetical example?

 

In that case you've got three potentially elite pieces who are not quite ready yet vs 2 NHL proven players that will make you solid now but don't have alot of long term upside from what we've seen.

 

Personally, I think JR and Alvin are smart enough to take the LA deal....Not saying that's a deal that will be on offer but we could see such a scenario. Until we know what is offered of course JR is saying we aren't taking a step back, and he would never verbalize that anyways, as it allows our players who remain to have an excuse.

 

He's not going to give the team and coaches an excuse. By saying we are taking a step back, he's literally just told all his players and coaches you can coast and be mediocre again next year because well, we are willing to take a step back....no leader says that Alf.

that's a good point about "no leader publicly stating we aren't taking a step back".  But the players know if the moves made are a step back or not.  That's why the guys were so upset after the bubble.  They knew the club took a step back.  

[mll]

Just now, NucknAsia said:

Agents can talk and always do...how do you think trades are made where a player signs an extension right after the 'window' opens to re sign? It's because quiet discussions were already held in private.

There was an interview period which has since been removed.  Agents don't even want the interview period because they feel it has hurt their clients.

 

 

[Alflives]

10 minutes ago, mll said:

There was an interview period which has since been removed.  Agents don't even want the interview period because they feel it has hurt their clients.

 

 

Considering the information you provided about teams not being able to talk to Miller before the coming draft, perhaps he's not traded until after the draft?  That kind of indicates it will be players coming back as the key pieces.  

[NucknAsia]

12 minutes ago, Alflives said:

that's a good point about "no leader publicly stating we aren't taking a step back".  But the players know if the moves made are a step back or not.  That's why the guys were so upset after the bubble.  They knew the club took a step back.  

True and I can't argue that, but at the same time, at what point do we place pressure on Bo who's turning 28, Boeser who's 24, Petey now 22 and a few others to be the actual leaders? That's what I meant leading from behind. They were upset because they were young and thought, we 'need them' to be better.

 

No, you are 4 world class players who have the ability (along with Demko) to force your way into the playoffs and pull the team with you. And you must do that. It seems we have been excusing that. Look at the Chicago teams we battled, Toews and Kane, Keith, Seabrooke, Crawford led...yes they added and had vets, but the players that 'got them to contending' were those 5.... 

 

We have our 5 apparently....so perhaps its time to stop coddling them? Seems to me that's what JR is doing....Telling them, you're getting paid 6.7,9 mil each....you better start leading....because that's what you're paid for.

 

If you look at it that way, I think you'll see, our past coaches and mgmt have truly been accepting mediocrity or 'good enough' from those we pay to be the best...at least I do.

[Gawdzukes]

3 minutes ago, mll said:

They can't talk to him before the draft though because he's not yet in the final year of his deal - 5th overall for a 1-year rental seems expensive.

Are you absolutely sure about that? I've seen contradictory reports and have noticed you sprinkling this concept in to your posts lately. I haven't seen anything concrete on this from an NHL standpoint though one way or another. If you happened to have a link it would be appreciated.

 

I had thought it was somewhat stipulated in the CBA but the general convention was that teams could work around that on an informal basis in the past. Maybe I'm confusing that with something else though.

 

If it is the draft does that mean the second it starts or when is that exact date and time on that? I thought a yearly NHL contract ran until June 30th. I found this (below) although it relates to UFA's it seems to indicate that contracts do end on June 30th, meaning JT would be in his final year starting July 1, and therefore fully able to sign a new contract before the draft on July 7.

 

[NucknAsia]

17 minutes ago, mll said:

There was an interview period which has since been removed.  Agents don't even want the interview period because they feel it has hurt their clients.

 

 

I believe that has to do with UFA's not trades.

What I am talking about is players under contract, where a GM is talking trade with another GM. Agents are always involved if discussions get serious (aka one side says ok but we want an extension). At that stage an agent will have informal discussions with the target GM (even before the re-sign period starts), to see if there is a framework to get an extension done. If so, then the trade moves forward and the player signs the extension right after the period opens.

This is common and just done quietly. And given its sanctioned by both teams and player, no one complains

[mll]

15 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

Are you absolutely sure about that? I've seen contradictory reports and have noticed you sprinkling this concept in to your posts lately. I haven't seen anything concrete on this from an NHL standpoint though one way or another. If you happened to have a link it would be appreciated.

 

I had thought it was somewhat stipulated in the CBA but the general convention was that teams could work around that on an informal basis in the past. Maybe I'm confusing that with something else though.

 

If it is the draft does that mean the second it starts or when is that exact date and time on that? I thought a yearly NHL contract ran until June 30th. I found this (below) although it relates to UFA's it seems to indicate that contracts do end on June 30th, meaning JT would be in his final year starting July 1, and therefore fully able to sign a new contract before the draft on July 7.

 

 

The dates have been adjusted this year because of the break for the Olympics.   Free agency has been pushed back to 13 July - NMCs/NTCs etc all change on that date.  The draft on 7/8 July is still part of this season and Miller wouldn't be in the final year of his deal yet.  

 

In the past there was a 1 week interview period ahead of free agency but there's no interview period anymore since the CBA was approved ahead of the bubble.

 

I wasn't sure about the rule, several insiders were mentioning it and the quote by his agent suggest as such - aliboy found the confirmation:

 

On 5/31/2022 at 7:26 AM, aliboy said:

So here it is, I am surprised, would have thought a club can negotiate with their own player then sign after the appropriate date, but no.

 

RENEGOTIATION OF CONTRACTS

Will Clubs be able to renegotiate contracts with players?

No. Player contracts will not be renegotiated (upward or downward) during their term. Extensions may be negotiated but only in the final year of the contract and only if such extension is for an amount that can be accommodated in a Club's upper limit for the current year or as computed for future years.

Edited June 3, 2022 by mll

[NucknAsia]

5 minutes ago, mll said:

 

The dates have been adjusted this year because of the break for the Olympics.   Free agency has been pushed back to 13 July - NMCs/NTCs etc all change on that date.  The draft on 7/8 July is still part of this season and Miller wouldn't be in the final year of his deal yet.  

 

In the past there was a 1 week interview period ahead of free agency but there's no interview period anymore since the CBA was approved ahead of the bubble.

 

I wasn't sure about the rule, several insiders were mentioning it and the quote by his agent suggest as such - aliboy found the confirmation:

 

 

I think the issues is (re the Dhaliwal tweet), is that his agent has already said no discounts, while JR has said (effectively) we have an internal cap / number already that works for us....

 

JT's agent will of course say that as he wants max leverage, he's not going to say we want out, but the reality is, our number is clearly not going to align with his number. based on what his agent has said (e no discounts).

 

that's why this thread is so long now....I think its unlikely Miller extends here (sadly)

Edited June 3, 2022 by NucknAsia

[JM_]

20 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

Are you absolutely sure about that? I've seen contradictory reports and have noticed you sprinkling this concept in to your posts lately. I haven't seen anything concrete on this from an NHL standpoint though one way or another. If you happened to have a link it would be appreciated.

 

I had thought it was somewhat stipulated in the CBA but the general convention was that teams could work around that on an informal basis in the past. Maybe I'm confusing that with something else though.

 

If it is the draft does that mean the second it starts or when is that exact date and time on that? I thought a yearly NHL contract ran until June 30th. I found this (below) although it relates to UFA's it seems to indicate that contracts do end on June 30th, meaning JT would be in his final year starting July 1, and therefore fully able to sign a new contract before the draft on July 7.

 

 

I think we can be sure teams will be asking questions about what Millers camp wants. Asking "what is JT expecting out of his next deal?" isn't strictly negotiating, its asking about expectations. Thats going to happen for sure.

 

49 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

Yeah they would be a good partner. It's a shame NJ won the lotto as they would have been prime trade partners too.

 

It seems to me that the last (3) Covid seasons have kind of depleted some peoples ability to remember how hockey works. You get the odd fan reminding us of how good Miller is and that you don't just lose good point producing hockey players unless you get someone equal back. Except it happens all the time when you have an emerging player coming to the end of his contract on a mediocre team. That's hockey. These people act as if none of us noticed Miller had a 'not bad' year. 

 

If only hockey was as simple as throwing big money at your top players to retain them without thinking about the landscape, future direction, and other teams actions.

there is a price that makes sense to retain Miller though. For me thats something like 7.5 x 7 years, in that range. If thats simply impossible then yeah we need to move him and it needs to be for good value, and should be given how cheap he could be for a team next season at 50% retained.

 

 

[mll]

13 minutes ago, NucknAsia said:

I believe that has to do with UFA's not trades.

What I am talking about is players under contract, where a GM is talking trade with another GM. Agents are always involved if discussions get serious (aka one side says ok but we want an extension). At that stage an agent will have informal discussions with the target GM (even before the re-sign period starts), to see if there is a framework to get an extension done. If so, then the trade moves forward and the player signs the extension right after the period opens.

This is common and just done quietly. And given its sanctioned by both teams and player, no one complains

Extensions are often discussed ahead of a trade but the player is in the final year of his deal - won't be the case before free agency opens up.

There are enough teams interested that there is the possible risk of one asking the league to investigate.  Arizona lost a 1st and 2nd round pick for bending the combine rules - could it be in that magnitude.  Don't know.  Some of those situations are at Bettman's discretion and impossible to predict how he could rule. 

 

His agent also doesn't sound comfortable negotiating outside of the window either, based on his quote to Dhaliwal.

 

[JM_]

1 minute ago, mll said:

Extensions are often discussed ahead of a trade but the player is in the final year of his deal - won't be the case before free agency opens up.

There are enough teams interested that there is the possible risk of one asking the league to investigate.  Arizona lost a 1st and 2nd round pick for bending the combine rules - could it be in that magnitude.  Don't know.  Some of those situations are at Bettman's discretion and impossible to predict how he could rule. 

 

His agent also doesn't sound comfortable negotiating outside of the window either, based on his quote to Dhaliwal.

 

So if a GM asked Millers agent, "would JT be willing to stay long term?" is that outside the rules?

[NucknAsia]

4 minutes ago, mll said:

Extensions are often discussed ahead of a trade but the player is in the final year of his deal - won't be the case before free agency opens up.

There are enough teams interested that there is the possible risk of one asking the league to investigate.  Arizona lost a 1st and 2nd round pick for bending the combine rules - could it be in that magnitude.  Don't know.  Some of those situations are at Bettman's discretion and impossible to predict how he could rule. 

 

His agent also doesn't sound comfortable negotiating outside of the window either, based on his quote to Dhaliwal.

 

People don't know what happens behind closed doors. Its very easy to work around this rule, and as I said, it happens frequently. How else do you explain players who have been traded and extended very quickly after a trade....its because "high level discussions" of an extension occurred prior to trade. Its a common practice

Edited June 3, 2022 by NucknAsia

[Gawdzukes]

3 minutes ago, mll said:

 

The dates have been adjusted this year because of the break for the Olympics.   Free agency has been pushed back to 13 July - NMCs/NTCs etc all change on that date.  The draft on 7/8 July is still part of this season and Miller wouldn't be in the final year of his deal yet.  

 

In the past there was a 1 week interview period ahead of free agency but there's no interview period anymore since the CBA was approved ahead of the bubble.

 

I wasn't sure about the rule, several insiders were mentioning it and the quote by his agent suggest as such - aliboy found the confirmation:

 

Okay ... thanks yeah I was aware of that free week last year but that is for UFA's, not signed players. So when do this years contracts start then, July 7th, July 8th, July 9th, July 13th? I still see them starting on July 1st regardless of when the draft is because you need to be under contract. Do you have something regarding existing contract dates themselves being extended as well?

 

Also as per Bartlett summer starts June 21st.  Just Joking ... kind of lol

 

I still feel that teams may be able to work around this but if it's iron clad it sure would negatively impact the types of trades that could happen. I seem to recall a couple trades in the past where a trade was made without a new contract and then long term deal was signed during the year with that player but I can't remember specifically right now.

[mll]

Just now, JM_ said:

So if a GM asked Millers agent, "would JT be willing to stay long term?" is that outside the rules?

Jones was in the same situation as Miller and Chicago among other assets gave up 12th overall in 2021 - Bowman was confident that Jones would extend with them.  It was known that Chicago was one of his preferred teams.  Not sure about the behind the scenes though. 

 

[mll]

2 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

Okay ... thanks yeah I was aware of that free week last year but that is for UFA's, not signed players. So when do this years contracts start then, July 7th, July 8th, July 9th, July 13th? I still see them starting on July 1st regardless of when the draft is because you need to be under contract. Do you have something regarding existing contract dates themselves being extended as well?

 

Also as per Bartlett summer starts June 21st.  Just Joking ... kind of lol

 

I still feel that teams may be able to work around this but if it's iron clad it sure would negatively impact the types of trades that could happen. I seem to recall a couple trades in the past where a trade was made without a new contract and then long term deal was signed during the year with that player but I can't remember specifically right now.

13 July instead of 1 July this year.  As part of the transitional rules the 2021/22 season has been extended to 12 July instead of the normal 30 June - all contracts are automatically extended to that date.  The 2022/23 season starts on 13 July.

 

[Nucker 67]

I think Miller's camp intends on re-signing in VAN, if they agree with JR's offer.  Like he did with Boudreau, JR will leave it up to Miller to accept or reject the offer. I don't think it'll be overly generous, because the future of this team isn't about Miller. It's about Petey, Boeser, Podz and Hughes etc.  Miller will basically be in a support role once the youngens take the reins. Could start to happen as early as this coming season, Petey with the new dome, lookin' good, feelin' good. 

 

JT commented that some players (Petey) need to come to camp prepared and be ready to start the season. Petey can't take half a season to get warmed up this time, he needs to be good from Game 1. And I think Pettersson will be ready. Boeser is also going to be on a mission.

 

My guess on Miller's offer will be 5 years x $7.75. Does he accept that?  

 

Edit - salary 

 

Edited June 3, 2022 by NUCKER67

[mll]

15 minutes ago, NucknAsia said:

People don't know what happens behind closed doors. Its very easy to work around this rule, and as I said, it happens frequently. How else do you explain players who have been traded and extended very quickly after a trade....its because "high level discussions" of an extension occurred prior to trade. Its a common practice

Players in the final year of their deals can talk extensions.  He won't be in the final year of his deal and the extension can only be official a week after the draft once free agency opens up.  

 

[Herberts Vasiljevs]

1 hour ago, BPA said:

Philly would be the team to target a trade with.  They have some young prospects/players and that 5th overall pick.  In that range would be Nemec and Jiricek.

I'm pretty sure we would be guaranteed one of those guys if we got the 5th pick.