[Report] Canucks name Patrik Allvin as GM

[EddieVedder]

Dont ppl here understand by now that teams sign these players knowing they wont be as good in the last few years of their contract?   This isnt rocket science

[IBatch]

On 1/29/2022 at 11:04 PM, EddieVedder said:

Dont ppl here understand by now that teams sign these players knowing they wont be as good in the last few years of their contract?   This isnt rocket science

No doubt.  It sure isn't.  

[The Lock]

On 1/29/2022 at 4:13 PM, tas said:

adding depth while subtracting your best player(s) is still a catastrophic net loss. 

But this misses the point in what he's saying. You only really provided part of the context of Horvat's quote. The rest of his quote tends to go against what you were saying about him potentially wanting out if we don't do well.

 

Context is huge when we want a clearer picture as to what's going on and it's important not to use just smaller snippets unless if all we want to do is satisfy our own confirmation bias. For example, if I broke into your house and pulled you out of your house, that would look pretty bad on my part. However, if I was a firefighter and you were in a burning house, suddenly that changes everything. Yet, if you remove that 2nd part, you can make what I did sound pretty bad.

 

Same can be said for this stuff. Context matters.

Edited January 31, 2022 by The Lock

[tas]

46 minutes ago, The Lock said:

But this misses the point in what he's saying. You only really provided part of the context of Horvat's quote. The rest of his quote tends to go against what you were saying about him potentially wanting out if we don't do well.

 

Context is huge when we want a clearer picture as to what's going on and it's important not to use just smaller snippets unless if all we want to do is satisfy our own confirmation bias. For example, if I broke into your house and pulled you out of your house, that would look pretty bad on my part. However, if I was a firefighter and you were in a burning house, suddenly that changes everything. Yet, if you remove that 2nd part, you can make what I did sound pretty bad.

 

Same can be said for this stuff. Context matters.

it doesn't miss the point of what he's saying. his point is that he's sick of missing the playoffs, and he believed (in may of last year) that adding depth to the roster would allow them to compete. they tried that this past offseason, and it didn't seem to get them where they needed to be.

 

he didn't say anywhere that he thought they could be a playoff team by adding depth while also subtracting hugely important pieces. 

 

so now we're in a position where we know that bo is still sick of missing the playoffs (that didn't magically change), but presumably (if the wrecking ball does come swinging through as most suspect) there is no longer the solution of fixing the problem by adding depth. 

Edited January 31, 2022 by tas

[The Lock]

1 minute ago, tas said:

it doesn't miss the point of what he's saying. his point is that he's sick of missing the playoffs, and he believed (in may of last year) that adding depth to the roster would allow them to compete. they tried that this past offseason, and it didn't seem to get them where they needed to be.

 

he didn't say anywhere that he thought they could be a playoff by adding depth while subtracting hugely important pieces. 

 

so now we're in a position where we know that bo is still sick of missing the playoffs (that didn't magically change), but presumably (if the wrecking ball does come swinging through as most suspect) there is no longer the solution of fixing the problem by adding depth. 

But you have to look at the conversation you were having when this whole thing came up. You were using his quote as evidence that he might want out if we don't do any better. Except only one part of the quote was used. The 2nd half of the quote sounds more like he wants this team: Vancouver, to get better.

 

That entire quote says nothing about whether he'd want out or not. Ultimately, that's what we were originally talking about. Ultimately, that's what this quote was being used as evidence for. So while I agree that he's sick of missing the playoffs, it doesn't mean he wants out either.

[tas]

26 minutes ago, The Lock said:

But you have to look at the conversation you were having when this whole thing came up. You were using his quote as evidence that he might want out if we don't do any better. Except only one part of the quote was used. The 2nd half of the quote sounds more like he wants this team: Vancouver, to get better.

 

That entire quote says nothing about whether he'd want out or not. Ultimately, that's what we were originally talking about. Ultimately, that's what this quote was being used as evidence for. So while I agree that he's sick of missing the playoffs, it doesn't mean he wants out either.

I addressed that already when I mentioned that yes, he would clearly prefer to stay with vancouver (if they're a playoff team), but that if presented with the choice between staying in vancouver OR being on a playoff team, I believe the latter would be more important to him, based on reading between the lines and his frustration that's been voiced more than once over the years. 

 

the quote provides us with 2 separate pieces of information:

 

a) bo is sick of missing the playoffs

 

b) bo, in may of 2021, believed that adding depth to that roster could make them a playoff team. that didn't work, and now the prevailing wisdom is that management will be moving out big pieces of that roster. 

 

you're welcome to disagree with my premise or abstain from opining based on lack of information, but I definitely haven't manipulated the context of the quotes to support my point -- I merely deemed the rest of the quote as irrelevant, as it no longer applies. 

[Nucker 67]

4 minutes ago, tas said:

bo is sick of missing the playoffs

They're all sick of missing the playoffs. Bo ios the captain, so I wouldn't expect him to say anything less.  He probably feels he can still win in VAN

[The Lock]

10 minutes ago, tas said:

I addressed that already when I mentioned that yes, he would clearly prefer to stay with vancouver (if they're a playoff team), but that if presented with the choice between staying in vancouver OR being on a playoff team, I believe the latter would be more important to him, based on reading between the lines and his frustration that's been voiced more than once over the years. 

 

the quote provides us with 2 separate pieces of information:

 

a) bo is sick of missing the playoffs

 

b) bo, in may of 2021, believed that adding depth to that roster could make them a playoff team. that didn't work, and now the prevailing wisdom is that management will be moving out big pieces of that roster. 

 

you're welcome to disagree with my premise or abstain from opining based on lack of information, but I definitely haven't manipulated the context of the quotes to support my point -- I merely deemed the rest of the quote as irrelevant, as it no longer applies. 

I am going to politely disagree on your last sentence as I did interpret your initial response differently in terms of the using only half the sentence. However, I am glad we are at least able to have one of the more civil discussions I've had in a while on this forum, so cheers for that.

Edited January 31, 2022 by The Lock

[Jester13]

7 minutes ago, tas said:

I addressed that already when I mentioned that yes, he would clearly prefer to stay with vancouver (if they're a playoff team), but that if presented with the choice between staying in vancouver OR being on a playoff team, I believe the latter would be more important to him, based on reading between the lines and his frustration that's been voiced more than once over the years. 

 

the quote provides us with 2 separate pieces of information:

 

a) bo is sick of missing the playoffs

 

b) bo, in may of 2021, believed that adding depth to that roster could make them a playoff team. that didn't work, and now the prevailing wisdom is that management will be moving out big pieces of that roster. 

 

you're welcome to disagree with my premise or abstain from opining based on lack of information, but I definitely haven't manipulated the context of the quotes to support my point -- I merely deemed the rest of the quote as irrelevant, as it no longer applies. 

Two things that you're still ignoring to address: 1) The quality of coaching and winning under a new coaching staff yet still the same personnel, and 2) how you've said we'll be a worse team if we trade Miller, all while not even knowing who we get in return and what that difference will be - and let's not forget that this management group also has lots of time to even still make this team better in the offseason, well-before Bo's contract is up.

 

It's a big assumption that simply losing Miller means we're taking such a large step back that it will push Bo to requesting a trade or simply signing elsewhere in FA. Maybe he sees this new management group with a solid vision, with important pieces coming back in trades, and a waaaaay better coaching staff, and all of these things drive him to signing on again with much more hope for making the post season and being contenders with the team that drafted him and made him captain. We simply don't know yet, but to so emphatically claim that he's as good as gone is a hasty one. 

[tas]

5 minutes ago, Jester13 said:

Two things that you're still ignoring to address: 1) The quality of coaching and winning under a new coaching staff yet still the same personnel, and 2) how you've said we'll be a worse team if we trade Miller, all while not even knowing who we get in return and what that difference will be - and let's not forget that this management group also has lots of time to even still make this team better in the offseason, well-before Bo's contract is up.

 

It's a big assumption that simply losing Miller means we're taking such a large step back that it will push Bo to requesting a trade or simply signing elsewhere in FA. Maybe he sees this new management group with a solid vision, with important pieces coming back in trades, and a waaaaay better coaching staff, and all of these things drive him to signing on again with much more hope for making the post season and being contenders with the team that drafted him and made him captain. We simply don't know yet, but to so emphatically claim that he's as good as gone is a hasty one. 

any return for miller (and garland, and whoever else) will be, hopefully, a long term boost. the team will, however, be worse in the short term. there's really no way around that. 

 

I think asking bo to sit tight for another year or 3 is going to be a very tough sell. 

[aGENT]

5 minutes ago, tas said:

any return for miller (and garland, and whoever else) will be, hopefully, a long term boost. the team will, however, be worse in the short term. there's really no way around that. 

 

I think asking bo to sit tight for another year or 3 is going to be a very tough sell. 

There's no reason that with the right returns and corresponding moves in the summer, that this team couldn't still be the bubble playoff team it currently is with Miller. All while massively upgrading their mid-long term outlook, cap allocation and getting "younger faster and cheaper" as management has stated is their plan.

 

There's no reason to think Horvat wouldn't be on board for that. And if he isn't... We move him next TDL as well. 

 

Neither situation is some unsolvable Labrinth.

[tas]

4 minutes ago, aGENT said:

There's no reason that with the right returns and corresponding moves in the summer, that this team couldn't still be the bubble playoff team it currently is with Miller. All while massively upgrading their mid-long term outlook, cap allocation and getting "younger faster and cheaper" as management has stated is their plan.

 

There's no reason to think Horvat wouldn't be on board for that. And if he isn't... We move him next TDL as well. 

 

Neither situation is some unsolvable Labrinth.

what kinds of moves do you believe this team can make that would allow them to move their best player(s) without absorbing a regression?

[aGENT]

Just now, tas said:

what kinds of moves do you believe this team can make that would allow them to move their best player(s) without absorbing a regression?

See, you say regression but fail to consider the holistic view of the situation. Yes, we'd likely regress somewhat at F (nobody has suggested otherwise) but assuming someone like the rumoured Schneider is coming back, we'd actually improve at D.

 

And surely the progress of our young forwards (Petey coming back in to form, Hoglander, Podkolzin etc taking steps, adding Chytil etc) could cover at least a portion of that regression at F

 

I'd also start with signing one of Paul/Tierney/Sturm as 3C this summer to shore up our C depth while also hopefully improving our PK and helping free up Horvat for more offense.

 

See, not so scary, is it?

[Jester13]

4 minutes ago, aGENT said:

See, you say regression but fail to consider the holistic view of the situation. Yes, we'd likely regress somewhat at F (nobody has suggested otherwise) but assuming someone like the rumoured Schneider is coming back, we'd actually improve at D.

 

And surely the progress of our young forwards (Petey coming back in to form, Hoglander, Podkolzin etc taking steps, adding Chytil etc) could cover at least a portion of that regression at F

 

I'd also start with signing one of Paul/Tierney/Sturm as 3C this summer to shore up our C depth while also hopefully improving our PK and helping free up Horvat for more offense.

 

See, not so scary, is it?

Maybe Laf comes back in the trade and a larger role on a young, skilled team sees him take strides? 

 

[tas]

1 minute ago, aGENT said:

See, you say regression but fail to consider the holistic view of the situation. Yes, we'd likely regress somewhat at F (nobody has suggested otherwise) but assuming someone like the rumoured Schneider is coming back, we'd actually improve at D.

 

And surely the progress of our young forwards (Petey coming back in to form, Hoglander, Podkolzin etc taking steps, adding Chytil etc) could cover at least a portion of that regression at F

 

I'd also start with signing one of Paul/Tierney/Sturm as 3C this summer to shore up our C depth while also hopefully improving our PK and helping free up Horvat for more offense.

 

See, not so scary, is it?

I'm not convinced schneider is an immediate upgrade. long term certainly, but now? hard to say.

 

banking on internal improvement from hoglander and podkolzin, both of whom have basically lived in boudreau's doghouse, and a return to form for petey at this point are all very optimistic outlooks. 

[aGENT]

7 minutes ago, tas said:

I'm not convinced schneider is an immediate upgrade. long term certainly, but now? hard to say.

 

banking on internal improvement from hoglander and podkolzin, both of whom have basically lived in boudreau's doghouse, and a return to form for petey at this point are all very optimistic outlooks. 

He's currently covering top 4 duties with Fox out, on a contender, as a 20 year old rookie, with a whopping 9 games under his belt.

 

I don't think it's overly optimistic at all. And you forgot Chytil. Teams 'bank on' internal improvement from youth on every team, every year. There's little choice in a cap world and IMO it's silly not to expect improvement from players like Podkolzin.

 

Otherwise, welcome to sports (or life lol). Nothing is guaranteed. We could keep Miller and he could have a career ending injury after we re-up him for $9mx8 and be saddled with that LTIR anchor through our young core's prime.

 

You make the best plans you can, adjust along the way as needed, and hope for the best. Management's stated plan is younger, faster and cheaper. That's likely what's going to happen.

[tas]

7 minutes ago, aGENT said:

He's currently covering top 4 duties with Fox out, on a contender, as a 20 year old rookie, with a whopping 9 games under his belt.

 

I don't think it's overly optimistic at all. And you forgot Chytil. Teams 'bank on' internal improvement from youth on every team, every year. There's little choice in a cap world and IMO it's silly not to expect improvement from players like Podkolzin.

 

Otherwise, welcome to sports (or life lol). Nothing is guaranteed. We could keep Miller and he could have a career ending injury after we re-up him for $9mx8 and be saddled with that LTIR anchor through our young core's prime.

 

You make the best plans you can, adjust along the way as needed, and hope for the best. Management's stated plan is younger, faster and cheaper. That's likely what's going to happen.

and that's all fine and dandy. just don't expect the captain to stick around for younger, faster, cheaper. 

[aGENT]

1 minute ago, tas said:

and that's all fine and dandy. just don't expect the captain to stick around for younger, faster, cheaper. 

Again, why not?

 

We can still be a bubble playoff team the next couple years while greatly increasing his chances of winning here in the next 2-7 +/- years.

 

Moving Miller is not some death knell some of you seem to want to paint it as. A good plan, well executed, still gives him a good chance to win.

 

He could demand a trade to a contender and they could be rebuilding in 3 years after winning squat. There's no guarantees.

[WHL rocks]

26 minutes ago, tas said:

I'm not convinced schneider is an immediate upgrade. long term certainly, but now? hard to say.

 

banking on internal improvement from hoglander and podkolzin, both of whom have basically lived in boudreau's doghouse, and a return to form for petey at this point are all very optimistic outlooks. 

He played around 22 mins last night. Been playing solid hockey. Would have been called up earlier but Covid protocol. 

 

6'2 205lbs physical RHD.

Reminds me of Jaccob Slavin.

 

Good luck trying to get him from NYR.

If JR can make it happen props to him. I doubt it. 

[tas]

Just now, aGENT said:

Again, why not?

 

We can still be a bubble playoff team the next couple years while greatly increasing his chances of winning here in the next 2-7 +/- years.

 

Moving Miller is not some death knell some of you seem to want to paint it as. A good plan, well executed, still gives him a good chance to win.

 

He could demand a trade to a contender and they could be rebuilding in 3 years after winning squat. There's no guarantees.

I just don't see it with the pieces you've mentioned. if it's miller out and chytil, schneider, lafreniere in, plus a signing of a tierney level player, that just doesn't look like a playoff team to me. especially if garland and/or boeser are also going to be gone in exchange for lesser/younger players.