How did JR/PA do on TDL 2022? (10 being best, 1 being worst)

[13231]

8 hours ago, lmm said:

Its OK that we fundamentally disagree

You believe 17 games of Motte (even if he is not resigned, {from another post}) is worth more than the return

you believe this group is "OWED" the chance to try and squeak into the playoffs

You seem blind to the failures of this group, and blind to the number of times they come out cold or fail against bottom dwellers

That is all fine, and I disagree with all those point

but it is ironic that you have already thrown in the towel with regards to reasoning with me, because if you can't and won't even try to reason, way would anyone care to listen?

 

Take canucklehead below

that is a very reasoned response 

makes me rethink my initial score of 2/10

based on canuckle's post, I think I'll change my vote to 4/10

I still think they should have done more, but what they did do was good 

More for 132

here are a couple of points that you might have missed

1 If the Canucks are embarking on a culture change, that includes changes in the way the team is managed.

It has been said that Motte and the management were not close to a deal

if true, is management giving the team the right signal by retaining Motte for 17 games, and losing him for nothing, (old management style)

or

does management make a bigger statement by off loading Motte to message the other FAs that this management group is not afraid to cut loose players who over value their services?

 

2 You bring up the last 3 games.

the last 3 games show that this team does not need Motte as desperately as some might think, ( the whole is bigger than the one)

 

3 Management needed to make some statement this deadline.

They could not very well come in, retool the front office for 3 months then say "You know what, Ol Jimmer put together a pretty good squad"

that would have been very bad for their credibility.

Trading Motte was a bare minimum move

 

canuckle

nice post I upped my score based on this response

Ok well first, I'll state again that I won't be able to reason with you on the one point in contention, which is our very different perspective on the character of this team. You've underscored the fact you think this team is overall incompetent and isn't owed any leverage with statements such as "They shart the bed every second game", "You're blind to the failures of this team", "You believe the team is OWED a chance to squeak into the playoffs" and a few more, while the facts point to a completely different reality. Truth is, the Canucks have been a top 10 team in the league in points percentage since BB took over, dug themselves out of a massive hole Green and Co. put them under, and have consistently beaten juggernaut teams to get to a point where they can realistically make the playoffs.

 

Here are some numbers you can reflect on: 24-11-7 under BB and 7th in the league in standings since he took over. That's over half of a season of superb play (also covering a period of Covid related challenges). Follow this link to read further: https://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/standings/standings.php?v=l&s=pts&so=d&ha=all&sd=2021-12-06&ed=2022-03-28

 

You know what this information does? Unequivocally denounces your false takes quoted earlier. There's no bed sharting or failures happening here, this is a very solid team being underrated and overlooked by a huge section of its own fans for some really strange reason. Hard to understand the psychology of this fan base. 

 

I like the Hamonic trade and the Dermott pick up, but I believe the team would hugely benefit from still having Motte around, especially given the injuries to the bottom 6 right now. Trading him was unnecessary and the return was negligible. You said this is a bare minimum move and something the regime did for their credibility, and although interpreted differently, I agree with you here, as it seems like this is something the regime did under pressure for itself and not for the team. 

 

I really did not intend to spend so much time on this thread, but at the very least I hope this discourse gives you reason to reflect on numbers and objective information before reducing the team to bed sharters, failures and such. This team and city could do well by having a more well informed and positive fan base, especially when they have been battling and playing with the amount of heart that they have for the past 4 months. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 28, 2022 by 13231

[Hairy Kneel]

There was no trade that would have taken away the damage done by Green and his cookie cutting approach. 

Coach B was/is still behind the proverbial 8 ball. We saved 1.5 M

But the bigger savings I think would be to swap OEL for a solid 4M dman and to buy out/trade Dickinson, get Burroughs back in for Hunt. 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 28, 2022 by Hairy Kneel

[lmm]

8 hours ago, 13231 said:

Ok well first, I'll state again that I won't be able to reason with you on the one point in contention, which is our very different perspective on the character of this team. You've underscored the fact you think this team is overall incompetent and isn't owed any leverage with statements such as "They shart the bed every second game", "You're blind to the failures of this team", "You believe the team is OWED a chance to squeak into the playoffs" and a few more, while the facts point to a completely different reality. Truth is, the Canucks have been a top 10 team in the league in points percentage since BB took over, dug themselves out of a massive hole Green and Co. put them under, and have consistently beaten juggernaut teams to get to a point where they can realistically make the playoffs.

 

Here are some numbers you can reflect on: 24-11-7 under BB and 7th in the league in standings since he took over. That's over half of a season of superb play (also covering a period of Covid related challenges). Follow this link to read further: https://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/standings/standings.php?v=l&s=pts&so=d&ha=all&sd=2021-12-06&ed=2022-03-28

 

You know what this information does? Unequivocally denounces your false takes quoted earlier. There's no bed sharting or failures happening here, this is a very solid team being underrated and overlooked by a huge section of its own fans for some really strange reason. Hard to understand the psychology of this fan base. 

 

I like the Hamonic trade and the Dermott pick up, but I believe the team would hugely benefit from still having Motte around, especially given the injuries to the bottom 6 right now. Trading him was unnecessary and the return was negligible. You said this is a bare minimum move and something the regime did for their credibility, and although interpreted differently, I agree with you here, as it seems like this is something the regime did under pressure for itself and not for the team. 

 

I really did not intend to spend so much time on this thread, but at the very least I hope this discourse gives you reason to reflect on numbers and objective information before reducing the team to bed sharters, failures and such. This team and city could do well by having a more well informed and positive fan base, especially when they have been battling and playing with the amount of heart that they have for the past 4 months. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I stopped reading about here

your commitment to failure is reason enough for me to stop

bye

[13231]

43 minutes ago, lmm said:

I stopped reading about here

your commitment to failure is reason enough for me to stop

bye

Lol great dodge there bud, and I'm sure that's not where you stopped reading. Funny how you can dish out whatever you want, but cannot take something as simple as me stating I won't be able to reason with you on a point because we have drastically different perspectives. Convenient cop out at this point from writing any factually valid rebuttal to my last post. Oh well, have a good one man and lay off the negativity a bit, especially when no numbers pertaining to the team back it up. 

[Baggins]

On 3/27/2022 at 2:11 AM, 13231 said:

I fundamentally disagree with you on everything you have said. These last three games, let alone how the team responded with BB as coach after Green's debacle, shows enough evidence of this team's character to me. If you call any of this sharting the bed every second game, I know for certain that I will not be able to reason with you in any way. And as for the trade, it would be really nice to still have Motte down this last 17 game stretch. This was an unnecessary trade, but I guess hopefully the 4th rounder works out in 4-5 years from now. 

It doesn't really matter if the 4th pans out at all. The team is still in the playoff hunt even if a longshot to make it. Moving Motte for an asset was the smart move. Picking up Richardson for free, who can play wing or C equally well, not only assists in maintaining the playoff hunt it also maintains our player depth. Moving Motte also saves the cap space his increased new deal would have cost for next year. A 1m replacement for next season, very possibly Lockwood, saves around 1.5 million on what Motte would have cost next season. In the end the teams chance at the playoffs isn't highly damaged, player depth was maintained, and an asset acquired. That's a win. The longshot draft pick is better than no shot at all when Motte walked away. The very worst case scenario is a status quo - the 4th turning out to be the nothing we would get when Motte walked. The flipside is that 4th can be used in a trade for an NHL player, or the draft pick is used and pans out to be an NHL player. Sure it would be 'nice' to have Motte for the few games remaining. Unfortunately 'nice' made no sense at all. Particularly when Richardson became available as a free as a replacement.

 

Just as trading Hamonic for a third and then flipping the third for Dermott was a win. Dermott is younger, has the versatility to play either side, maintained D depth for a shot at the playoffs, and opened up an extra 1.5m cap space for next season. That's also a win.

 

The bottom line: Our playoff chances haven't been seriously hampered, our D got younger, we added a draft pick, and saved cap for next year. I call that a trade deadline win.

[13231]

3 minutes ago, Baggins said:

It doesn't really matter if the 4th pans out at all. The team is still in the playoff hunt even if a longshot to make it. Moving Motte for an asset was the smart move. Picking up Richardson for free, who can play wing or C equally well, not only assists in maintaining the playoff hunt it also maintains our player depth. Moving Motte also saves the cap space his increased new deal would have cost for next year. A 1m replacement for next season, very possibly Lockwood, saves around 1.5 million on what Motte would have cost next season. In the end the teams chance at the playoffs isn't highly damaged, player depth was maintained, and an asset acquired. That's a win. The longshot draft pick is better than no shot at all when Motte walked away. The very worst case scenario is a status quo - the 4th turning out to be the nothing we would get when Motte walked. The flipside is that 4th can be used in a trade for an NHL player, or the draft pick is used and pans out to be an NHL player. Sure it would be 'nice' to have Motte for the few games remaining. Unfortunately 'nice' made no sense at all. Particularly when Richardson became available as a free as a replacement.

 

Just as trading Hamonic for a third and then flipping the third for Dermott was a win. Dermott is younger, has the versatility to play either side, maintained D depth for a shot at the playoffs, and opened up an extra 1.5m cap space for next season. That's also a win.

 

The bottom line: Our playoff chances haven't been seriously hampered, our D got younger, we added a draft pick, and saved cap for next year. I call that a trade deadline win.

I definitely agree with the latter, trading Hamonic and acquiring Dermott was a solid move.

 

As for Motte, I feel he's a much better player than Richardson, and not having him down the stretch, especially given our injury situation right now, does have the possibility of negatively impacting the team. Motte ate tough minutes against the opponent's toughest players, while providing reasonable offense. Richardson, although a decent player, is a waiver wire pick up and at best provides maybe 50% of what Motte did. Our shot at the playoffs, and shutting down opponents if and when we make it, improves substantially with Motte in the lineup than without. And given that we are right in the thick of contention for the playoffs, trading him for a 4th seems unnecessary and questionable. 

 

As much as I liked Motte and dislike him being traded, he's gone now and I just hope that 4th rounder is worthwhile in whichever way. And hopefully, our management shows some more belief in our players and their ability to prevail as a group going forward. 

[canucklehead44]

9 hours ago, Hairy Kneel said:

There was no trade that would have taken away the damage done by Green and his cookie cutting approach. 

Coach B was/is still behind the proverbial 8 ball. We saved 1.5 M

But the bigger savings I think would be to swap OEL for a solid 4M dman and to buy out/trade Dickinson, get Burroughs back in for Hunt. 

 

 

 

 

I don't see OEL getting moved. Dickinson is a tricky one. At his buyout cost we would have to sign a better player for about 1 million to justify it unless short term we really need the extra cap to complete a deal. His season has been strange because he had been in the league long enough (221 games, essentially 3 full seasons) to demonstrate he belongs but at 26 is still young where he should be at his prime and years away from decline. Given he would cost us picks to move I don't mind seeing him getting one more shot to see if he can regain form. 
 

[N4ZZY]

17 hours ago, J-23 said:

I will wait till' offseason to make a judgement on this management group.

 

There is really no win-win with the Motte trade. Keep him and let him walk in off-season. Overreaction. Trade him for a 4th, which was what his type of players like Appleton were going for. Overreaction. I was okay with the Motte trade, going to lose players you like, part of the game. 

 

When JR and BB was coming in, I was excited, we were going after guys with experience. Sick of the rookie coaches and GM's. However, I have to say not too pleased with singing all these new rookie GM's. I guess it's difficult to find an experienced GM with a good track record. I'll try to be optimistic and wait and see what they do from here on out. The leash is short though. 

Yeah. I’m in the same boat where I am in a wait and see approach.   

 

This management group I was hoping would be better than the previous one, but Benning and co., didn’t set a high bar exactly, so it wouldn’t be hard to pass. With the Motte trade, I think the trade had to happen, honestly. If the team lost Motte for free and got nothing in return, this fanbase would crucify Allvin, and people would say he’s no different than Benning who lost so many players and had no return for them. So, PA trading Motte for a 4th, is better than losing him for nothing. Fans might not be happy with the return, and was hoping for better, but if that’s the market, then that’s the market that was set. There was nothing more PA could have done. He could have asked for more, but just because he asks, doesn’t mean he’ll get it. 

I think your right, though, that the off-season is where this management group will most likely leave their mark. A few players could be moving out this off-season, Brock among them. I think that Bo’s going to resign long term personally. Brock and Miller to me could be gone, as well as Myers. 

 

[N4ZZY]

3 minutes ago, canucklehead44 said:

I don't see OEL getting moved. Dickinson is a tricky one. At his buyout cost we would have to sign a better player for about 1 million to justify it unless short term we really need the extra cap to complete a deal. His season has been strange because he had been in the league long enough (221 games, essentially 3 full seasons) to demonstrate he belongs but at 26 is still young where he should be at his prime and years away from decline. Given he would cost us picks to move I don't mind seeing him getting one more shot to see if he can regain form. 
 

I’d be willing to give Dickinson another try next season, maybe he can regain form. This season, your right, is an odd one for the team. 

[N4ZZY]

16 minutes ago, 13231 said:

I definitely agree with the latter, trading Hamonic and acquiring Dermott was a solid move.

 

As for Motte, I feel he's a much better player than Richardson, and not having him down the stretch, especially given our injury situation right now, does have the possibility of negatively impacting the team. Motte ate tough minutes against the opponent's toughest players, while providing reasonable offense. Richardson, although a decent player, is a waiver wire pick up and at best provides maybe 50% of what Motte did. Our shot at the playoffs, and shutting down opponents if and when we make it, improves substantially with Motte in the lineup than without. And given that we are right in the thick of contention for the playoffs, trading him for a 4th seems unnecessary and questionable. 

 

As much as I liked Motte and dislike him being traded, he's gone now and I just hope that 4th rounder is worthwhile in whichever way. And hopefully, our management shows some more belief in our players and their ability to prevail as a group going forward. 

What worries me is that JR and PA’s track record for drafting hasn’t been great when they were in Pitts, right? And their drafting in later rounds is worse, from what I know. 

[canucklehead44]

14 minutes ago, N4ZZY said:

What worries me is that JR and PA’s track record for drafting hasn’t been great when they were in Pitts, right? And their drafting in later rounds is worse, from what I know. 

I am more concerned with moving forward without Judd Brackett than JR and PA since they probably won't be too involved with drafting. Also since Brackett left in the last two drafts had had zero first rounders, one 2nd, and one 3rd which is terrible. 

I am sure Judd had influence in the 2020 draft but 2021 we had zero players from the NCAA/USHL. 

 

Since 2014, our first 6 picks from the NCAA/USHL route have played in the NHL. 

Tyler Madden is the first to not make it but was traded as a highly coveted prospect and is projecting to be an NHL player and Aiden Mcdonough is ready to turn pro. The other guys (Malone, Truscott, Kunz) are still early but have certainly played pretty well given their positions. 

Last draft was more euro & Jr hockey heavy. Not sure we pull an NHLer but Klimkovich, Myrenberg, and Forsell look alright so far. 

 

 

Edited March 28, 2022 by canucklehead44

[Fred65]

21 minutes ago, canucklehead44 said:

I am more concerned with moving forward without Judd Brackett than JR and PA since they probably won't be too involved with drafting. Also since Brackett left in the last two drafts had had zero first rounders, one 2nd, and one 3rd which is terrible. 

I am sure Judd had influence in the 2020 draft but 2021 we had zero players from the NCAA/USHL. 

 

Since 2014, our first 6 picks from the NCAA/USHL route have played in the NHL. 

Tyler Madden is the first to not make it but was traded as a highly coveted prospect and is projecting to be an NHL player and Aiden Mcdonough is ready to turn pro. The other guys (Malone, Truscott, Kunz) are still early but have certainly played pretty well given their positions. 

Last draft was more euro & Jr hockey heavy. Not sure we pull an NHLer but Klimkovich, Myrenberg, and Forsell look alright so far. 

 

 

We also lost Patrick Johnsson ( I believe that was his name ) who had good contacts and a good eye. Harvey was tutored by Brackett and may be a good scout. Brackett more than any thing brought a system to the mess that was our scouting deprtment. He also put some emphasis on character, he left the scouting department a better system than when he started as head amateur scout.

[alt kilgore]

20 minutes ago, canucklehead44 said:

I am more concerned with moving forward without Judd Brackett than JR and PA since they probably won't be too involved with drafting. Also since Brackett left in the last two drafts had had zero first rounders, one 2nd, and one 3rd which is terrible. 

I am sure Judd had influence in the 2020 draft but 2021 we had zero players from the NCAA/USHL. 

 

Since 2014, our first 6 picks from the NCAA/USHL route have played in the NHL. 

Tyler Madden is the first to not make it but was traded as a highly coveted prospect and is projecting to be an NHL player and Aiden Mcdonough is ready to turn pro. The other guys (Malone, Truscott, Kunz) are still early but have certainly played pretty well given their positions. 

Last draft was more euro & Jr hockey heavy. Not sure we pull an NHLer but Klimkovich, Myrenberg, and Forsell look alright so far. 

 

 

 

Yup, another dumb and dumber decision by Benning and Weisbrod to let go the first really good amateur drafting director and department we've had.  Which doesn't say much but still.  With all kinds of connections to American hockey leagues.  That connection led to his influence in pushing for Boeser, Demko, and Gaudette (although that one soured for other reasons).   After Benning suddenly and unilaterally decided to fire two of Bracketts assistants in the season before his contract expired, Judd rightly demanded that he have final say in who he hires to help him run his own department. You'd think, just after helping to land Petey and Hughes, that would be a minimum ask.  But too much for the control freak show of dumb and dumber. 

[Baggins]

31 minutes ago, 13231 said:

I definitely agree with the latter, trading Hamonic and acquiring Dermott was a solid move.

 

As for Motte, I feel he's a much better player than Richardson, and not having him down the stretch, especially given our injury situation right now, does have the possibility of negatively impacting the team. Motte ate tough minutes against the opponent's toughest players, while providing reasonable offense. Richardson, although a decent player, is a waiver wire pick up and at best provides maybe 50% of what Motte did. Our shot at the playoffs, and shutting down opponents if and when we make it, improves substantially with Motte in the lineup than without. And given that we are right in the thick of contention for the playoffs, trading him for a 4th seems unnecessary and questionable. 

 

As much as I liked Motte and dislike him being traded, he's gone now and I just hope that 4th rounder is worthwhile in whichever way. And hopefully, our management shows some more belief in our players and their ability to prevail as a group going forward. 

I didn't see moving Motte as hugely jeopardizing the playoff chances at all. The playoffs are still slim regardless. Motte is a relatively minor piece of the bigger picture. Particularly picking up Richardson to fill in. No, Richardson isn't as good. But he's not an earth shattering downgrade either. It's not like he's replacing Boeser or Miller. Even with Motte gone and Richardson in, we've picked up 5 of 6 points against some pretty good teams while on the road. The 4th holds more value than the slim difference between Motte and Richardson for the balance of the season. Richardson is still pretty fast, defensively responsible, a pk'er, excellent at faceoffs (59.8% on the season), and is actually higher than Motte in hits per 60 minutes played this season. So is he really the 50% downgrade you believe? The only real Motte advantage, and actual 50% of Motte equivelant, is Motte produces a little more offensively, He isn't exactly a high producer anyway though at .31 pts per game to Richardson's .15 per game. Does Richardson's faceoff ability make up for Motte's marginally higher production? I get Motte is well liked, but like I said, it's not an earth shattering downgrade. Overall this was a smart move.

[13231]

35 minutes ago, Baggins said:

I didn't see moving Motte as hugely jeopardizing the playoff chances at all. The playoffs are still slim regardless. Motte is a relatively minor piece of the bigger picture. Particularly picking up Richardson to fill in. No, Richardson isn't as good. But he's not an earth shattering downgrade either. It's not like he's replacing Boeser or Miller. Even with Motte gone and Richardson in, we've picked up 5 of 6 points against some pretty good teams while on the road. The 4th holds more value than the slim difference between Motte and Richardson for the balance of the season. Richardson is still pretty fast, defensively responsible, a pk'er, excellent at faceoffs (59.8% on the season), and is actually higher than Motte in hits per 60 minutes played this season. So is he really the 50% downgrade you believe? The only real Motte advantage, and actual 50% of Motte equivelant, is Motte produces a little more offensively, He isn't exactly a high producer anyway though at .31 pts per game to Richardson's .15 per game. Does Richardson's faceoff ability make up for Motte's marginally higher production? I get Motte is well liked, but like I said, it's not an earth shattering downgrade. Overall this was a smart move.

Fair enough, where I saw Motte's utility the most was his effort in eating tough minutes and being really good at that. His chemistry with Highmore and Lummiko was also making that line very dangerous in many different situations, making not just Motte but his linemates very effective as well. Richardson on the other hand, while having good attributes, is still a question mark, as to what he will actually end up bringing to the team. Last game he hardly played the third period which was not such a great sign. I hope we see the better sides to his game in upcoming match ups, otherwise there will be a big hole in the bottom 6 that may end up affecting certain dynamics of the team in quite a negative way. But I hope I'm wrong and Richardson ends up becoming a more than capable replacement for Motte. 

[Hairy Kneel]

1 hour ago, canucklehead44 said:

I don't see OEL getting moved. Dickinson is a tricky one. At his buyout cost we would have to sign a better player for about 1 million to justify it unless short term we really need the extra cap to complete a deal. His season has been strange because he had been in the league long enough (221 games, essentially 3 full seasons) to demonstrate he belongs but at 26 is still young where he should be at his prime and years away from decline. Given he would cost us picks to move I don't mind seeing him getting one more shot to see if he can regain form. 
 

OEL at that price point? 

I think he's a bit high priced. 

If we could move him with a prospect and 5th rounder. 

A lot of stay at home dman available for 3.5 or less in the off season. Preferably a big banger if we can. 

If we can save 3M we should imo

[13231]

1 hour ago, N4ZZY said:

I’d be willing to give Dickinson another try next season, maybe he can regain form. This season, your right, is an odd one for the team. 

I'm not aware of details, but when I google "Jim Rutherford draft picks Pittsburgh", this is what shows up from an article written in 2021: 

 

There are only five players that have been drafted in Jim Rutherford’s entire time as the Penguins GM that have played for the Penguins. Dominik Simon (173 games), Sam Lafferty (53 games), Daniel Sprong (42 games) and Anthony Angello (8 games). The outlier here is Kasperi Kapanen who was drafted by Rutherford, traded in the Kessel trade and then brought back at the expense of another". 

 

Pretty damn brutal. Also cannot find any notable prospects JR and PA drafted in Pittsburgh, if someone can point out any late round picks highly coveted right now picked by this regime, I'd be happy to know. 

 

These guys are also infamous for trading a first for Jason Zucker lol, and here people had meltdowns when we traded a first for JT Miller. Not to mention JR's signing of players like Jack Johnson and a number of others to pretty awful anchor contracts. But then again, can't argue with the cups right, so I'll give these two the benefit of the doubt for at least a year and see what kind of shape the team is in by December 2022. Since day 1 I've cautiously stayed off the hype train though because the last few years of JR's tenure in Pittsburgh had unanimous disapproval. 

[13231]

1 hour ago, N4ZZY said:

What worries me is that JR and PA’s track record for drafting hasn’t been great when they were in Pitts, right? And their drafting in later rounds is worse, from what I know. 

• 
   

I'm not aware of details, but when I google "Jim Rutherford draft picks Pittsburgh", this is what shows up from an article written in 2021: 

 

There are only five players that have been drafted in Jim Rutherford’s entire time as the Penguins GM that have played for the Penguins. Dominik Simon (173 games), Sam Lafferty (53 games), Daniel Sprong (42 games) and Anthony Angello (8 games). The outlier here is Kasperi Kapanen who was drafted by Rutherford, traded in the Kessel trade and then brought back at the expense of another". 

 

Pretty damn brutal. Also cannot find any notable prospects JR and PA drafted in Pittsburgh, if someone can point out any late round picks highly coveted right now picked by this regime, I'd be happy to know. 

 

These guys are also infamous for trading a first for Jason Zucker lol, and here people had meltdowns when we traded a first for JT Miller. Not to mention JR's signing of players like Jack Johnson and a number of others to pretty awful anchor contracts. But then again, can't argue with the cups right, so I'll give these two the benefit of the doubt for at least a year and see what kind of shape the team is in by December 2022. Since day 1 I've cautiously stayed off the hype train though because the last few years of JR's tenure in Pittsburgh had unanimous disapproval.