(discussion) With stats/facts to back it up, explain where you think our d group ranks.

[Viper007]

1 hour ago, DSVII said:

Depends what kind of flavor of worse you prefer. The gruesome train wreck or slow burning dumpster fire. Sharp straight decline, or a long apathetic slog of mediocrity.

 

Which ones would you rank worse out of curiosity?

 

https://www.nucksmisconduct.com/2021/12/22/22802321/ranking-darkest-eras-vancouver-canucks-history

I'll take the Benning era over the crap in the 70s and 80s.

[D.B Cooper]

4 hours ago, Dazzle said:

You have a bias on the kid. You're ignoring the fact that he's 21 and defensemen take a long time to develop.

What bias is that?   
Have you watched much of the kid?  
Yes.  kid.  I understand that.  
21 or 25, his progression seems to have stalled, and he isn’t close.  
This whole ‘dmen taken longer’ thing is constantly blown out of proportion.  

Just look at the kid and his body of work.  

It doesn’t scream NHL. It barely whispers it. 

Edited July 24, 2022 by D.B Cooper

[Dazzle]

9 hours ago, Alflives said:

Gillis our most successful era. Fact 

Benning our worst era. Fact 

JR/Allvin will be a lot more like Gills, than Benning.  Opinion. 

 

 

Not even freaking close. You've clearly never followed the Canucks from the 70s onwards.

[Dazzle]

5 hours ago, D.B Cooper said:

What bias is that?   
Have you watched much of the kid?  
Yes.  kid.  I understand that.  
21 or 25, his progression seems to have stalled, and he isn’t close.  
This whole ‘dmen taken longer’ thing is constantly blown out of proportion.  

Just look at the kid and his body of work.  

It doesn’t scream NHL. It barely whispers it. 

Kinda says a lot about your lack of rationality if you think 21 is about the same as 25.

 

Do you actually have stats that definitively prove that Dmen don't actually take as long as forwards? All you have is talk with no substance.

[RUPERTKBD]

10 hours ago, DSVII said:

Depends what kind of flavor of worse you prefer. The gruesome train wreck or slow burning dumpster fire. Sharp straight decline, or a long apathetic slog of mediocrity.

 

Which ones would you rank worse out of curiosity?

 

https://www.nucksmisconduct.com/2021/12/22/22802321/ranking-darkest-eras-vancouver-canucks-history

I'd say the Mike Keenan era was worse...

[D.B Cooper]

6 hours ago, Dazzle said:

Kinda says a lot about your lack of rationality if you think 21 is about the same as 25.

 

Do you actually have stats that definitively prove that Dmen don't actually take as long as forwards? All you have is talk with no substance.

Let’s talk about this in 2-3 years when the kid is in some other league other than the NHL.  

You realize not all of the Canucks picks make the NHL right?    
Take off the homer shades and watch some more hockey 

[Dazzle]

1 hour ago, D.B Cooper said:

Let’s talk about this in 2-3 years when the kid is in some other league other than the NHL.  

You realize not all of the Canucks picks make the NHL right?    
Take off the homer shades and watch some more hockey 

Well, apparently you thought he was a bust already at 21, so what's there to talk about? This is the kind of bias I'm pointing out from people like you. You're obviously wrong to call a 21 year old a 'bust', and I can see that no matter what the evidence against you, you won't change your mind. This is beyond stupid. Lmfao.

[D.B Cooper]

2 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

Well, apparently you thought he was a bust already at 21, so what's there to talk about? This is the kind of bias I'm pointing out from people like you. You're obviously wrong to call a 21 year old a 'bust', and I can see that no matter what the evidence against you, you won't change your mind. This is beyond stupid. Lmfao.

Wow you are dramatic.  How fun. 
Yeah. I’m calling out a 21 year old. 
He isn’t a great hockey player.   Sorry dude. 
Are you Jett Woo?    You seem to be taking my opinion to heart.  
You were projected to be a long shot to make it, and the last year, you have taken a step back.  
I really hope you can turn it around, but it’s not looking great.  
Good luck Jett!

[DrJockitch]

4 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

Well, apparently you thought he was a bust already at 21, so what's there to talk about? This is the kind of bias I'm pointing out from people like you. You're obviously wrong to call a 21 year old a 'bust', and I can see that no matter what the evidence against you, you won't change your mind. This is beyond stupid. Lmfao.

I think it is fair to say his development has been slow but progressing but also not the most encouraging. In a regular season he would have been in ECHL in 2020-21. He only made AHL because it was watered down by the taxi squads. 
‘Last year he was a depth AHL defenceman and was supplanted by vets when it came to the playoffs. 
That is slow growth and maybe in his third pro season he will be a regular AHL defenceman. This is progress but not screaming NHL D-man.  Maybe something will click and in 2-3 years he will be a bottom pairing option. 

[Dazzle]

7 minutes ago, D.B Cooper said:

Wow you are dramatic.  How fun. 
Yeah. I’m calling out a 21 year old. 
He isn’t a great hockey player.   Sorry dude. 
Are you Jett Woo?    You seem to be taking my opinion to heart.  
You were projected to be a long shot to make it, and the last year, you have taken a step back.  
I really hope you can turn it around, but it’s not looking great.  
Good luck Jett!

That's the thing though - you know so little about what happened. You can only describe how he was used last year. Any info thrown at you is essentially repackaged in your mind as serving a particular purpose (which may or may not actually be true), so all I'm saying is that you're really biased.

[Dazzle]

6 minutes ago, DrJockitch said:

I think it is fair to say his development has been slow but progressing but also not the most encouraging. In a regular season he would have been in ECHL in 2020-21. He only made AHL because it was watered down by the taxi squads. 
‘Last year he was a depth AHL defenceman and was supplanted by vets when it came to the playoffs. 
That is slow growth and maybe in his third pro season he will be a regular AHL defenceman. This is progress but not screaming NHL D-man.  Maybe something will click and in 2-3 years he will be a bottom pairing option. 

The thing is, when Woo was drafted, his offense kind of sucked, but he was a big punishing defender. Then in his +1 year, his offense took a step up, which was pretty promising. Obviously COVID changed things for a lot of players and as you said, he was supplanted by vets, which show he still has a lot of learning to do at the AHL. My point out of this is that he'll probably be the next NHL guy to make it, which is not wrong to say because he is JUST 21 years old and Ryan Johnson said he'll be doing more development next year as a defender. Of course, the poster above said this is essentially coddling the player so his confidence doesn't get shot

[Dazzle]

18 hours ago, DSVII said:

Depends what kind of flavor of worse you prefer. The gruesome train wreck or slow burning dumpster fire. Sharp straight decline, or a long apathetic slog of mediocrity.

 

Which ones would you rank worse out of curiosity?

 

https://www.nucksmisconduct.com/2021/12/22/22802321/ranking-darkest-eras-vancouver-canucks-history

That's the thing though. You're changing the goalposts now. Alf erroneously calls Benning the "worst era" in hockey a fact, which is in fact an opinion. It's neither a fact nor a correct opinion because the worst era in hockey was in the 70s when the Canucks were virtually unwatchable. They were the worst team in the league and the only thing it had going for it was the fighting. That CANNOT possibly be better than Benning's teams, where they actually had some youngsters make the team, such as Pettersson and Boeser.

[DrJockitch]

1 minute ago, Dazzle said:

The thing is, when Woo was drafted, his offense kind of sucked, but he was a big punishing defender. Then in his +1 year, his offense took a step up, which was pretty promising. Obviously COVID changed things for a lot of players and as you said, he was supplanted by vets, which show he still has a lot of learning to do at the AHL. My point out of this is that he'll probably be the next NHL guy to make it, which is not wrong to say because he is JUST 21 years old and Ryan Johnson said he'll be doing more development next year as a defender. Of course, the poster above said this is essentially coddling the player so his confidence doesn't get shot

I haven’t given up. I think Myrenberg has shot ahead of him on depth chart and not by small margin but that may be recency bias. 
‘I am not convinced Woo is going to be NHL player but have no problem with guys taking the time they need. People need to stop generalizing about young guys, everyone is an individual that will develop at their own pace. 
‘I think best way to improve D next season may be if Dermott is ready for top 4 and move OEL to Q’s right, a Rathbone-Schenn third pair sound perfect. Problem is there is a significant difference between being ready  for top 4 and being ready for top 4 with Myers on your other side.

[D.B Cooper]

35 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

That's the thing though - you know so little about what happened. You can only describe how he was used last year. Any info thrown at you is essentially repackaged in your mind as serving a particular purpose (which may or may not actually be true), so all I'm saying is that you're really biased.

You haven’t thrown a single bit of info, so where do you get off trying to say any of this?
You have just been dramatically repeating your shtick. 
 

And yes, I’m going off of how he was used, and how he performed.
There was a reason why he was used at the end of the season.   It’s because he didnt show enough during it.   
 

After four full years of Jr, and now 2 seasons in the AHL, he has started showing regression.

At 22 (he is only a couple days away) and regressing on what has already been a nearly ok career, it isnt looking good, no matter what bias you think I’m working with, while avoiding your own obvious homer bias towards the guy, despite him showing poorly. 

 

[Dazzle]

2 hours ago, D.B Cooper said:

You haven’t thrown a single bit of info, so where do you get off trying to say any of this?
You have just been dramatically repeating your shtick. 
 

And yes, I’m going off of how he was used, and how he performed.
There was a reason why he was used at the end of the season.   It’s because he didnt show enough during it.   
 

After four full years of Jr, and now 2 seasons in the AHL, he has started showing regression.

At 22 (he is only a couple days away) and regressing on what has already been a nearly ok career, it isnt looking good, no matter what bias you think I’m working with, while avoiding your own obvious homer bias towards the guy, despite him showing poorly. 

 

No, it's clear that you're going by what you read about him, not what is ACTUALLY going on. You don't seem to realize that Woo, as a young defenseman, was edged out by vets because they were lacking forwards, but not defenseman. You could look at it like regression, but Woo was used as a forward, which is better than being scratched, no? Get this, as a forward, he played some decent minutes and did an ok job too, particularly on the PK.

 

It's clear that you're ignoring evidence, Johnson says (but we'll have to see if this is the case) that Woo will continue to develop as a defenseman in the next season. This is what he literally says in the interview. You choose to look at it in a twisted manner, but that's on you. The next season has yet to happen, but you seem to have all the answers that a 21 year old is a bust. Lmfao.

 

We can simply look at how you're observing the situation to see that you're inherently biased, to the point that a well-fleshed discussion wouldn't be possible. You say I have an "obvious homer bias", but you have yet to explain why a 21 year old in your view is about the same as a 25 year old in the AHL. Why should I think of you as worthy of a serious discussion on it? You don't even know what you're talking about. You just have an opinion and you're sticking to it, regardless of what the other perspectives are lol. That's not a discussion. That's you talking to your mirror.

Edited July 24, 2022 by Dazzle

[Alflives]

2 hours ago, D.B Cooper said:

You haven’t thrown a single bit of info, so where do you get off trying to say any of this?
You have just been dramatically repeating your shtick. 
 

And yes, I’m going off of how he was used, and how he performed.
There was a reason why he was used at the end of the season.   It’s because he didnt show enough during it.   
 

After four full years of Jr, and now 2 seasons in the AHL, he has started showing regression.

At 22 (he is only a couple days away) and regressing on what has already been a nearly ok career, it isnt looking good, no matter what bias you think I’m working with, while avoiding your own obvious homer bias towards the guy, despite him showing poorly. 

 

I don’t think Woo regressed from his draft year.  I think he’s improved.  But I think he was one of those guys who physically developed before his peer group.  So he was already close to his physical ceiling.  The other guys all got bigger, and stronger and just passed him by.  Now we are seeing a 22 year old player who is pretty much the same he was when 18.  Yes, he’s a bit better, but really there wasn’t much room for him to improve.  It was a bad pick.  But it’s the second round, so most of those picks don’t amount to much.  That’s why smart GM’s (during a rebuilding phase) collect those picks instead of trading them away.  Benning was a fool trading away so many picks.  

[Dazzle]

4 minutes ago, Alflives said:

I don’t think Woo regressed from his draft year.  I think he’s improved.  But I think he was one of those guys who physically developed before his peer group.  So he was already close to his physical ceiling.  The other guys all got bigger, and stronger and just passed him by.  Now we are seeing a 22 year old player who is pretty much the same he was when 18.  Yes, he’s a bit better, but really there wasn’t much room for him to improve.  It was a bad pick.  But it’s the second round, so most of those picks don’t amount to much.  That’s why smart GM’s (during a rebuilding phase) collect those picks instead of trading them away.  Benning was a fool trading away so many picks.  

There was never a 'rebuilding phase'. There was a retooling one, and that's largely because Benning (or Aquilini) didn't go the direction of rebuilding, so I'm not really sure what you're talking about. Does it warrant criticism? Sure, but calling it a rebuilding phase is a really poor observation. He didn't trade assets to "rebuild". How could you call it a rebuilding one?

 

And using that terminology, by having to rebuild, it means Gillis' era, failed, no? You don't rebuild off a succesful era, yet Gillis' tenure resulted in a total loss of young prospects because of his poor development and draft, but leaving no real assets to do a full rebuild. Gillis didn't set up the next GM for success, that's for sure.

Edited July 24, 2022 by Dazzle

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Dazzle said:

There was never a 'rebuilding phase'. There was a retooling one, and that's largely because Benning (or Aquilini) didn't go the direction of rebuilding, so I'm not really sure what you're talking about. Does it warrant criticism? Sure, but calling it a rebuilding phase is a really poor observation. He didn't trade assets to "rebuild". How could you call it a rebuilding one?

 

And using that terminology, by having to rebuild, it means Gillis' era, failed, no? You don't rebuild off a succesful era, yet Gillis' tenure resulted in a total loss of young prospects because of his poor development and draft, but leaving no real assets to do a full rebuild. Gillis didn't set up the next GM for success, that's for sure.

I can agree Benning was trying to “reset” the team, and avoid doing a proper rebuild.  And during that “reset” he traded away high picks, prospects, and youth for guys further along in their development.  It was a disaster then, and we are in a huge mess now because of his incompetence.   It took Gillis the Great a couple seasons to build his great team.  

I think the new management is forward thinking and will do a great job, just like Gillis.  But it’s going to take time.  

 

[D.B Cooper]

33 minutes ago, Dazzle said:

No, it's clear that you're going by what you read about him, not what is ACTUALLY going on. You don't seem to realize that Woo, as a young defenseman, was edged out by vets because they were lacking forwards, but not defenseman. You could look at it like regression, but Woo was used as a forward, which is better than being scratched, no? Get this, as a forward, he played some decent minutes and did an ok job too, particularly on the PK.

 

It's clear that you're ignoring evidence, Johnson says (but we'll have to see if this is the case) that Woo will continue to develop as a defenseman in the next season. This is what he literally says in the interview. You choose to look at it in a twisted manner, but that's on you. The next season has yet to happen, but you seem to have all the answers that a 21 year old is a bust. Lmfao.

 

We can simply look at how you're observing the situation to see that you're inherently biased, to the point that a well-fleshed discussion wouldn't be possible. You say I have an "obvious homer bias", but you have yet to explain why a 21 year old in your view is about the same as a 25 year old in the AHL. Why should I think of you as worthy of a serious discussion on it? You don't even know what you're talking about. You just have an opinion and you're sticking to it, regardless of what the other perspectives are lol. That's not a discussion. That's you talking to your mirror.

You added so much of your own theatrics to what I said, I can’t even attempt to reply. 
It’s just too far gone.  
Have a great day! 

[DSVII]

I was a huge fan of Woo when he was drafted, but when D-men are deployed as forwards it does not bode well for their development defensively. There's really two defensemen I recall in recent history that have succeeded with flying colors in that front, and Dustin Byfuglien and Brent Burns. And Woo does not fit their profiles.

 

I also recall we had Jordan Subban try a stint at forward with Utica and it didn't help him out either.

 

Here's hoping we see him on the ice as an NHL regular, I personally would be pumped, but the odds are starting to stack against him.