[PGT] Nashville Predators at Vancouver Canucks | Nov. 05, 2022

[Guest]

Just now, RogersTowell said:

The problem last night was a pretty common problem with this team.  They were brilliant, but only for at most half of the game.  First period PK was exactly what it should be - aggressive on the puck, active sticks, minimising shots to near zero.  After that, more passive and less effective.  First period 5 on 5, the Canucks took the initiative, moved the puck out of their own zone well, forechecked hard and created chances.  After that, not so much.  The fix isn't necessarily personnel, it's lighting fires under butts.

Some of the credit in hockey games needs to be given to the opposition.  

 

Even great teams like Tampa don't always go in and dominate the entire 60 minutes.  Preds came back hard and in the end made the game less lopsided then it was going to be.  Of course, we are lacking the killer instinct.  I don't think that it's for a lack of trying though, it's a lack of confidence and it starts from the net out.  

 

Demko has been incredibly shaky/bad to start this year and it's not inspiring any confidence.  I mean look at the Preds, they were down but they knew that Saros was going to shut the door no matter how many good scoring chances we got.  

[IBatch]

4 minutes ago, Strawbone said:

Miller vs Bo is like Republicans vs Democrats. Half the people are on either side and you’ll never get them to agree. 

Why can't everyone just be happy we have both?  And good grief.  Check out what the Sedins got their 2nd and 3rd deals cap percentage wise, and what they'd actually accomplished to date.  In the playoffs nothing.  And they'd didn't get 217 points their last 202 regular season games either - and signed their 3rd deal in a global financial crisis where flat cap was also expected at the time...and both got more then Miller. 

[Strawbone]

1 minute ago, stawns said:

I don't think anyone disagrees that miller is a great player, he is.  That's not where the disagreement is

Yeah I meant the discussion about which one should be traded. 

[canuck73_3]

7 minutes ago, Strawbone said:

Miller vs Bo is like Republicans vs Democrats. Half the people are on either side and you’ll never get them to agree. 

The difference for me is Miller has value now we can capitalize on and keeping him hinders the competitiveness of the contending roster forward, the ages don’t lineup to be effective long term. 

[canuck73_3]

1 minute ago, Strawbone said:

Yeah I meant the discussion about which one should be traded. 

Well one fits the timeline of the team and the other doesn’t. 

[rychicken]

10 minutes ago, Strawbone said:

Miller vs Bo is like Republicans vs Democrats. Half the people are on either side and you’ll never get them to agree. 

Vote for Ross Perot

[SilentSam]

9 minutes ago, stawns said:

You sell, for sure, but you don't sell on the young players with their prime years ahead of them and you don't sell on players who play key ropes that you don't have replacements for.  You can sell on miller without taking a massive step backwards because there are players who can fill that role.  You don't sell on Bo because there is no one on the team or in the system to fill that role and they'd be taking a massive, likely catastrophic step backward by doing so.

 

10 minutes ago, Boudrias said:

If he senses a gut job then I think he moves on. Inevitably I think we are headed for a tear down. Maybe PA is good for that road but is Rutherford. He will likely retire before a new roster matures. Will the Acqullinis be up for that? Will the fans? In 50 years they haven't been. Look how ownership in Ottawa was pillored. Actually the most loyal group has been Edmonton. Years of whoops. 

I see it like this,   Move Miller and the Canucks keep their past and present identity with Horvat.

That identity and culture is what Horvat represents, and something Rutherford is trying to change.

Horvat is potting good points right now , is unsigned,  and possibly going to push to UFA.

 

We are in a great position to max out on Horvats value,  and change the culture by trading him.

 

[canuck73_3]

4 minutes ago, SilentSam said:

 

I see it like this,   Move Miller and the Canucks keep their past and present identity with Horvat.

That identity and culture is what Horvat represents, and something Rutherford is trying to change.

Horvat is potting good points right now , is unsigned,  and possibly going to push to UFA.

 

We are in a great position to max out on Horvats value,  and change the culture by trading him.

 

Change the culture to sulking and giving up? No thanks.

[Kevin Biestra]

7 hours ago, IBatch said:

Well let's be real...as a long time fan we haven't had a goalie we've ever drafted to get that excited about other then Demko and Schnieder.   It's still a bit early to be sounding the alarm - not that i'm saying we shouldn't consider that either.   Goaltending is the most yo-yo position in pro sports.     Theodore.  Boucher had five shutouts in a row, after a long period of trying to get PHI over the top finding the next Hextall or Parent etc.  Jim Carey.   No not the Pet Detective,  but might as well been.   Even Carey Price.     We were totally spoiled with Luongo and even he wasn't enough.   Demko ... well.   That's a tad harsh.  Personally, having met him once in Laval, i'd consider he's way more concerned about his suits, not his social media status, at least get it right (takes a certain type of man, who's not even an NHLer yet, to rock a plaid peach suit).   

 

I think Glen Hanlon gave some reason to be excited.  Calder votes his first year, post-season all star team votes the second and then just ran into King Richard in the lineup.

 

Troy Gamble was also quite promising until his concussions.  He had actually unseated Kirk McLean as the starter for a season and as I have mentioned on here and as you may recall, a lot of fans wanted McLean traded for whatever could be recouped...and this was before the 92 and 93 division championships, never mind the 94 run.  And pretty shortly after McLean being a Vezina finalist and the Calgary 89 series.

 

But yeah we've acquired most of our great goalies through trades.  Kirk, Lu, the King, Markstrom, Suitcase.  Even the lesser appreciated but impressive short runs like Steve Weeks, John Garrett and Cesare Maniago.  A couple decent ones like Charlie Hodge in the expansion draft.  Almost none in the entry draft.

Although we did also draft Murray Bannerman...very good goalie...who we jettisoned shortly thereafter around the same time as Rick Vaive, Brent Ashton and Bill Derlago.

 

 

Edited November 6, 2022 by Kevin Biestra

[BigTramFan]

17 minutes ago, stawns said:

Miller will be 30 when his new deal kicks in.  You'll probably get a couple years of peak miller, then a year or two of still effective, but off his peak Miller and a few years of slow, not so good miller.  

 

At 28, you'll get 4ish years of peak Bo and a couple years of just off his peak and then a year or two of declining play.  To me, the difference is significant and Bo also has a more important skill set that will help remain effective even into his declining years.

 

 

Yes that sounds more like correct numbers to me. So definitely not 1-2 years of peak Miller compared to 5-6 of peak Horvat.

 

I also disagree with your comment about Horvat's skill set remaining effective into his declining years compared to Miller.

 

Bo will lose speed and I believe his effectiveness will decline rapidly at that point. He is not a playmaker. He will still be good at faceoffs, but that's not a big deal.

 

Miller already is not very fast so his decline won't be as obvious when he loses speed, he has a great passing game which will also make his decline less obvious. He also brings a physical game that Horvat doesn't provide. Miller will play on the wing and continue to be more effective at his role than Horvat at the same age imo.

 

*note: I am not comparing the play of these 2 guys, as they play very different styles, just whether age will have more/less impact on their decline

Edited November 6, 2022 by BigTramFan

[spook007]

1 hour ago, stawns said:

not tomention, you're probably going to have to add a sweetener to move Boeser

Add OEL...  

 

Ok, just joking, but Boeser would be a good start, if they keep Bo.....

Next season a few more goes, but its a mess... hopefully the cap goes up.

 

Bo at 8M and cuz at 4M (short term contract), and Boeser gone, just about breaks even....

The year after get tougher...

 

If they want to improve the D, They need another large contract to go (Garland perhaps)...

 

Still believe the plan was to offload Bo, and so far it looks to have back fired...

[canuck73_3]

1 minute ago, BigTramFan said:

Yes that sounds more like correct numbers to me. So definitely not 1-2 years of peak Miller compared to 5-6 of peak Horvat.

 

I also disagree with your comment about Horvat's skill set remaining effective into his declining years compared to Miller.

 

Bo will lose speed and I believe his effectiveness will decline rapidly at that point. He is not a playmaker. He will still be good at faceoffs, but that's not a big deal.

 

Miller already is not very fast so his decline won't be as obvious when he loses speed, he has a great passing game which will also make his decline less obvious. He also brings a physical game that Horvat doesn't provide. Miller will play on the wing and continue to be more effective at his role than Horvat at the same age imo.

Not as optimistic about Miller long term vs. Bo and brushing faceoffs off as not important. Remember 2011 during Malhotra then after Malhotra? 

[Mustard Tiger]

4 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:

So this “build is terrible” so moving out Miller, Myers and Boeser/Garland is dumb? Gotcha. 

I never meant to imply that.. In a perfect world I resign KUZ and EP this summer. I pray we land a top 5 and draft a potential franchise C. Assuming we get the Fiala / Tofu rate for all our fwds with good value... This can be a pretty quick fix. Obvious you cannot assume every kid pans out... But if we look at it as a 2 year plan ( this and next ) We will have well over half the cap available, A Bunch of ELCs / Money to re-sign some guys coming off ELCs + money available to weaponize the cap for even more future assets.

 

Without NHL depth and without a deep prospect pool we will never compete for a cup. Pretty good opportunity to correct that starting this TDL

[canuck73_3]

1 minute ago, spook007 said:

Add OEL...  

 

Ok, just joking, but Boeser would be a good start, if they keep Bo.....

Next season a few more goes, but its a mess... hopefully the cap goes up.

 

Bo at 8M and cuz at 4M (short term contract), and Boeser gone, just about breaks even....

The year after get tougher...

 

If they want to improve the D, They need another large contract to go (Garland perhaps)...

 

Still believe the plan was to offload Bo, and so far it looks to have back fired...

Rathbone sweetener, easy. He won’t get used here as long as we have Quinn. 

[canuck73_3]

1 minute ago, Mustard Tiger said:

I never meant to imply that.. In a perfect world I resign KUZ and EP this summer. I pray we land a top 5 and draft a potential franchise C. Assuming we get the Fiala / Tofu rate for all our fwds with good value... This can be a pretty quick fix. Obvious you cannot assume every kid pans out... But if we look at it as a 2 year plan ( this and next ) We will have well over half the cap available, A Bunch of ELCs / Money to re-sign some guys coming off ELCs + money available to weaponize the cap for even more future assets.

 

Without NHL depth and without a deep prospect pool we will never compete for a cup. Pretty good opportunity to correct that starting this TDL

Sign Bo, Kuzmenko, trade Miller for top 4 dman prospect pick, Boeser/Garland for pick/prospect/checking C, Myers for pick/retention if needed. 

[SilentSam]

6 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:

Change the culture to sulking and giving up? No thanks.

Club full of choir boys looking for empathy.

no wonder your attached to it.

[spook007]

Just now, canuck73_3 said:

Rathbone sweetener, easy. He won’t get used here as long as we have Quinn. 

100%.... 

 

We need D that can defend first and foremost on our bottom pairing, and as long as OEL is here, he and QH will be the offensive forces on the top 2 D pairings... 

[canuck73_3]

Just now, SilentSam said:

Club full of choir boys looking for empathy.

no wonder your attached to it.

Yawn. 

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Muttley said:

Boudreau needs to be on Miller about shorter shifts. Bo too, at times.

These are players that are only effective when they're within their physical endurance range.

 

JT, Bo, Hughes, Petey are all guilty of getting preferential treatment when it comes to their shift length.  

 

It's kind of disrespectful to the rest of your teammates if you think that you're better then them 1 minute into your shift, with no energy left.  

 

During the bubble year, we saw a few great plays being made by Quinn and Petey when they were at the very ends of their shifts and it was applauded because of the success.  

During the disaster 2020-21 year, we saw that leash get much longer.  I can think of so many games, especially in OT, where Quinn and JT would stay out on the ice for so long instead of going for a change.  

 

 

[BigTramFan]

2 minutes ago, canuck73_3 said:

Not as optimistic about Miller long term vs. Bo and brushing faceoffs off as not important. Remember 2011 during Malhotra then after Malhotra? 

My point is not whether winning faceoffs are important. More that if you shouldn't be paying someone $7-8m x 8 years for just their faceoff ability, i.e. do we want a $7.5m Beagle?