Its the D... Its always been the D. How is this so hard for GMs to understand?

[ShawnAntoski]

22 hours ago, fanfor42 said:

Under Martin 4 - 1 - 1

 

Under Demko 2 - 9 - 2

 

Same defense.  Better goaltending and the team is above .500.

 

Now are we a contender?  No.  But we are not this bad if Demko was  anything other than terrible.

 

If we had decent goaltending and were sitting above .500 the conversation would be we need to make a couple of moves to replace Myers and add another top 4 D and we would feel pretty good about things.

 

The way it is - with Demko so terrible - it makes the D look absolutely horrible and magnifies the problem 10 fold.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I like Demko, but his goaltending level in years past, has covered up alot and has HELPED keep the team in NHL Purgatory.  Anyways, Allvin has yet to earn his next contract...

Edited November 23, 2022 by ShawnAntoski

[lmm]

2 hours ago, EddieVedder said:

Chychrun is stable, just plays on a shit team.  

Would take chychrun anyday here but we cant give up any more pics of podz, so not happening

I don't think Chychrun is the answer in vancouver

If he goes to Boston he probably becomes an allstar and anchors their D for the next decade

If he comes to Vancouver he will become a hybrid Gudbranson/OEL

 

I just don't feel that Vancouver can make a successful team by taking players from losing orginizations

look at the difference between Schenn- OEL, Myers, Stillman, 

Its not really a skill level ting, its that those guys have gotten used to running around like a fire drill when things get tough

Schenn on the other hand starts knocking guys over

 

When people in vancouver talk about structure, they expect it from the coach

in Boston it is organizational structure 

 

Look at Jake DeBrusk, a couple of years ago he was mentioned in trades talk for Jake Virtanen

now he is a contributing member of one of the hottest teams in the league, without ever getting traded

another example is Taylor Hall, who has been traded

[Viper007]

4 hours ago, Junkyard Dog said:

 

Not to take away from how bad Demko has been but Martin has definitely had it easier. He's had a backups schedule facing weaker competition. 

 

All of his wins are against bottom teams and a slumping aging injured Pens team that were on pace to lose 7 in a row(we were loss 3 of 7 and they got destroyed in the first two losses). Canucks were able to play better against that sort of competition in comparison to some of the top competition they've faced with Demko.

 

I reckon Martin will likely get lit up vs a top team since he's yet to face anyone of high calibre, has given up a lot of goals vs weaker competition and also due to how poorly the Canucks play in front of their goalies vs good teams. No matter who we have in net they'll be under siege for most of the game. It isn't a good environment for any goalie atm. 

Why are you making excuses for the Pens?  The Canucks were on the back end of a back to back.  It was suppose to be a scheduled loss for the Canucks.  The Canucks earned that win.

[AnthonyG]

On 11/22/2022 at 7:05 AM, Shayster007 said:

Martin has a 3.49 GAA and a save% of .898

 

This is not a goaltending issue, this is 100% a defense issue.

Its pretty equal parts of goaltending, defensive zone coverage and Riley…. Fvcking… Stillman. 
 

Demko has made our defence look worse than it really is. Fumbling pucks, poor rebound control, several shots that have trickled out behind him, not being tight on his post etc..But at the same time, our defence hasn’t been great. Stillman is on the ice for 1 goal against per game, minimum. a fair share of goals that have gone in this year have been tips/deflections off of bodies. Which means we need to do a better job of boxing out and tying up sticks infront of the net. Limit the amount of deflections/tips on net that are making it difficult for our goalies to save. Our system of defensive zone coverage is ugly. Like why in the hell are we seeing defensemen challenging their guys on the blueline? Wingers covering for centres and D, D covering wingers area’s, centres all over the place… they are playing a strict man to man coverage and following their assignments all around our zone and when it gets a little scrambly, guys are getting lost and assignments are getting free. Cover your part of the zone and stick to that, quit running around. Just go back and rewatch the goals that went in from the game the other day, look at the confusion and misplacement of guys. On the 5th goal JT Miller took Boesers spot, Aman had to race to the point to cover Millers spot, Boeser had to turn around to cover Aman’s spot because Miller took his place, Stillman had nfc what he was doing, Myers was infront of the net and giving instructions to Stillman to go to the corner where the open man was… and the delay on all 3 guys that needed to be covered, resulted in a goal against. The pointman that Miller should have gone to was open, he had control of the puck, Aman ditched the guy along the wall to race to the point to pressure the dman, the guy he left exposed received the puck because Aman left him, Stillman was busy covering no one and then Pietrangelo sneaks in back door because Boeser had to turn around and head down low and tries covering the front of the net. Like to me thats a complete and entire dzone coverage breakdown, its all over the place. Same with on the 2nd goal, Myers turns back for a split second thinking Boeser would step in and take over the coverage of Eichel, but instead Boeser skates away and follows the dman and Myers turns back to skate at Eichel and is pointing at someone to cover an area.

[Timråfan]

3 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Its pretty equal parts of goaltending, defensive zone coverage and Riley…. Fvcking… Stillman. 
 

Demko has made our defence look worse than it really is. Fumbling pucks, poor rebound control, several shots that have trickled out behind him, not being tight on his post etc..But at the same time, our defence hasn’t been great. Stillman is on the ice for 1 goal against per game, minimum. a fair share of goals that have gone in this year have been tips/deflections off of bodies. Which means we need to do a better job of boxing out and tying up sticks infront of the net. Limit the amount of deflections/tips on net that are making it difficult for our goalies to save. Our system of defensive zone coverage is ugly. Like why in the hell are we seeing defensemen challenging their guys on the blueline? Wingers covering for centres and D, D covering wingers area’s, centres all over the place… they are playing a strict man to man coverage and following their assignments all around our zone and when it gets a little scrambly, guys are getting lost and assignments are getting free. Cover your part of the zone and stick to that, quit running around. Just go back and rewatch the goals that went in from the game the other day, look at the confusion and misplacement of guys. On the 5th goal JT Miller took Boesers spot, Aman had to race to the point to cover Millers spot, Boeser had to turn around to cover Aman’s spot because Miller took his place, Stillman had nfc what he was doing, Myers was infront of the net and giving instructions to Stillman to go to the corner where the open man was… and the delay on all 3 guys that needed to be covered, resulted in a goal against. The pointman that Miller should have gone to was open, he had control of the puck, Aman ditched the guy along the wall to race to the point to pressure the dman, the guy he left exposed received the puck because Aman left him, Stillman was busy covering no one and then Pietrangelo sneaks in back door because Boeser had to turn around and head down low and tries covering the front of the net. Like to me thats a complete and entire dzone coverage breakdown, its all over the place. Same with on the 2nd goal, Myers turns back for a split second thinking Boeser would step in and take over the coverage of Eichel, but instead Boeser skates away and follows the dman and Myers turns back to skate at Eichel and is pointing at someone to cover an area.

So your saying it’s a coach issue when everyone else blames players/management?

[MeanSeanBean]

56 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Its pretty equal parts of goaltending, defensive zone coverage and Riley…. Fvcking… Stillman. 
 

Demko has made our defence look worse than it really is. Fumbling pucks, poor rebound control, several shots that have trickled out behind him, not being tight on his post etc..But at the same time, our defence hasn’t been great. Stillman is on the ice for 1 goal against per game, minimum. a fair share of goals that have gone in this year have been tips/deflections off of bodies. Which means we need to do a better job of boxing out and tying up sticks infront of the net. Limit the amount of deflections/tips on net that are making it difficult for our goalies to save. Our system of defensive zone coverage is ugly. Like why in the hell are we seeing defensemen challenging their guys on the blueline? Wingers covering for centres and D, D covering wingers area’s, centres all over the place… they are playing a strict man to man coverage and following their assignments all around our zone and when it gets a little scrambly, guys are getting lost and assignments are getting free. Cover your part of the zone and stick to that, quit running around. Just go back and rewatch the goals that went in from the game the other day, look at the confusion and misplacement of guys. On the 5th goal JT Miller took Boesers spot, Aman had to race to the point to cover Millers spot, Boeser had to turn around to cover Aman’s spot because Miller took his place, Stillman had nfc what he was doing, Myers was infront of the net and giving instructions to Stillman to go to the corner where the open man was… and the delay on all 3 guys that needed to be covered, resulted in a goal against. The pointman that Miller should have gone to was open, he had control of the puck, Aman ditched the guy along the wall to race to the point to pressure the dman, the guy he left exposed received the puck because Aman left him, Stillman was busy covering no one and then Pietrangelo sneaks in back door because Boeser had to turn around and head down low and tries covering the front of the net. Like to me thats a complete and entire dzone coverage breakdown, its all over the place. Same with on the 2nd goal, Myers turns back for a split second thinking Boeser would step in and take over the coverage of Eichel, but instead Boeser skates away and follows the dman and Myers turns back to skate at Eichel and is pointing at someone to cover an area.

Only partially agree. Demko has been below average, if the average is how good Demko is. I don't believe he has been below average in the grand scheme of an NHL goalie. I have the time for maybe slightly, but he hasn't been terrible, IMO.

 

Last year he was just so bloody good it covered up how absolutely terrible our D was. I heard arguments of our D being above average and not a major fault of this team. I absolutely boggled my mind, even last year our D was atrocious most of the time, but looked decent because of how incredible Demko was.

 

What we are seeing now is the quality of this team when our team isn't getting top 3 goaltending. But this is beyond just the quality of our defensemen 

 

Outside of a very select few, our forward group has been embarassingly bad defensively. This whole team is flawed from a construction level, to a compete level, to a coaches issue.

 

I don't think Bruce is free of blame either. I like the guy, and think he's a tremendous coach. But he isn't giving the boys the best opportunity to win.

 

This team has so few bright lights right now, it's depressing.

 

[ShawnAntoski]

On 11/21/2022 at 10:56 PM, *Buzzsaw* said:

Over the past 12 years we've see a team which was one of the best in the league when it came to defensemen, gradually lose that quality.

 

One after the other... the GM's of this team have prioritized offense, even focused their efforts on 3rd or 4th liners... and paid barely any attention to the glaring deficiencies on the blue line.

 

Yes, there is Quinn Hughes as the exception which proves the rule... he is a fine young player, and has improved defensively hugely over the last two years, but his focus has always been offense...  and he can't do it all on his own.

 

To see Luke Schenn leading the team in +/- is really pathetic.  Not that Schenn isn't a real gamer, and someone who deserves a pat on the back... but he shouldn't be tops on the Canucks.

 

Over the summer the new GM and his staff had a chance to rectify the problem... but what did they do?  Spent $5 million to acquire Ilya Mikheyev and seemed to put all their energy in signing additional offensive talent in the form of Andrei Kuzmenko or 3rd liners like Curtis Lazar.

 

Meanwhile free agent D like 6' 3" 232 lb Ben Chiarot and defensively reliable, 6' 2"  206 lb multiple Stanley Cup winner Oli Maata get ignored and signed by Detroit.  Chiarot for the same price as Mikheyev, Maata for half that at 2.5 mil... $500,000 less than Lazar.

 

Last season Boston made a deal for unrestricted free agent Hampus Lindholm which saw the hugely talented Swede, 6th overall pick in 2012 at 6' 4'' 216 lb, now 28 and the peak of his abilities, move from Anaheim and sign for 6.5 mil a year.  Yes, the trade price was high, but if you want quality, you pay for it.  Where are the Canucks when it comes to deals like this?

Now part way into the season the Canucks are scrambling to pick up the left-overs... sure Ethan Bear is a decent D, but should he be playing on a top pairing?  More like a 6/7.

 

This team has some excellent offensive players... we really don't need to add additional... what the team needs are quality defensemen.

 

When are the GMs of this team going to apply their efforts to acquire a decent defense?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Good points but I am not so sure, Allvin has the creativity, ability & stomach to create a market for a team altering trade.  Anyways, he is signed for one more year and I wonder who comes, after him & JR ? 

[AnthonyG]

28 minutes ago, Shayster007 said:

Only partially agree. Demko has been below average, if the average is how good Demko is. I don't believe he has been below average in the grand scheme of an NHL goalie. I have the time for maybe slightly, but he hasn't been terrible, IMO.

 

Last year he was just so bloody good it covered up how absolutely terrible our D was. I heard arguments of our D being above average and not a major fault of this team. I absolutely boggled my mind, even last year our D was atrocious most of the time, but looked decent because of how incredible Demko was.

 

What we are seeing now is the quality of this team when our team isn't getting top 3 goaltending. But this is beyond just the quality of our defensemen 

 

Outside of a very select few, our forward group has been embarassingly bad defensively. This whole team is flawed from a construction level, to a compete level, to a coaches issue.

 

I don't think Bruce is free of blame either. I like the guy, and think he's a tremendous coach. But he isn't giving the boys the best opportunity to win.

 

This team has so few bright lights right now, it's depressing.

 

Like I cant blame Demko for a lot of the losses earlier in the season. If you look back at pretty much 90% of the goals that went in, there were a lot of bizarre bounces and crap like that. But the goals against started creeping into Demko’s confidence and its been crushing him every time a puck goes in. That 3rd goal for VGK, I knew we were in trouble. I didnt even feel comfortable with a 2 goal lead and when that was cut in half I was already preparing for them to blow it in regulation.

[AnthonyG]

1 hour ago, Timråfan said:

So your saying it’s a coach issue when everyone else blames players/management?

Its a combination of players, goaltending and dzone coverage where we are shadowing guys instead of defending your own area i.e. wingers on the point, centre helps down low in the corners and infront of the net, dmen work their own corners and infront of the net when its not in their corner. This way you arent caught running around and guys getting out of position. You go from a box plus one structure, to guys all over the ice and the structure collapses and begins to get exposed and you can end up having multiple guys in line with each other rather than spread out and taking away more area of ice.

 

Players are also not pulling their weight, just go look at the forwards either floating around or actually just standing still watching. Stillman is clueless and I feel bad for anyone paired with him. This system is getting guys completely lost and out of place and when it gets scrambly they abandon their man and we see 4 canucks guys vs  3 vegas players and vegas has more open ice and better positioning to get the loose puck and box us out of our own crease

 

then you have Demko who is struggling, I’m not expecting or asking him to steal every game, but ffs when you have a 2 goal lead in less than 13 mins of hockey to play, a good goalie closes that out on his own. All of this combined is making for a very ugly season. I can handle watching a team you expect to lose, I cant handle a team that is supposed to win but continues to sink lower and lower after every passing game with every lead they get.

[MeanSeanBean]

44 minutes ago, AnthonyG said:

Like I cant blame Demko for a lot of the losses earlier in the season. If you look back at pretty much 90% of the goals that went in, there were a lot of bizarre bounces and crap like that. But the goals against started creeping into Demko’s confidence and its been crushing him every time a puck goes in. That 3rd goal for VGK, I knew we were in trouble. I didnt even feel comfortable with a 2 goal lead and when that was cut in half I was already preparing for them to blow it in regulation.

Again, I don't think Demko was problem in the Vegas game. Yes, he needed to be better then the 3rd period. But he also was lights out in the first 2 periods when the D completely left him out to try.

 

The only thing I'm sure about with this team is it needs to be better if we are going to compete. Much better.

[AnthonyG]

19 minutes ago, Shayster007 said:

Again, I don't think Demko was problem in the Vegas game. Yes, he needed to be better then the 3rd period. But he also was lights out in the first 2 periods when the D completely left him out to try.

 

The only thing I'm sure about with this team is it needs to be better if we are going to compete. Much better.

He began to crumble. The 3rd goal was the start, the bad giveaway to that led to the tying goal which rattled him even further and they score 2 more goals and have 1 disallowed. Thats 4 goals in under 10 minutes… everything became frantic and scrambly around Demko. The team around him became desperate to protect a lead. The lack of pressure on VGK in our own zone screamed desperation.

[Junkyard Dog]

19 hours ago, Viper007 said:

Why are you making excuses for the Pens?  The Canucks were on the back end of a back to back.  It was suppose to be a scheduled loss for the Canucks.  The Canucks earned that win.

They were outscored 10-4 in the 2 games prior. They were struggling and just had lost Guenztel who's a known Canuck killer.  They went on to lose 7 games in a row.

 

They talked about how poorly that Western Canadian trip was in today's game vs the Flames at home. It was one of the worst road trips out of any team all year

 

Canucks outplayed a struggling team.  Those aren't excuses those are facts.

 

 

[R3aL]

1 hour ago, Junkyard Dog said:

They were outscored 10-4 in the 2 games prior. They were struggling and just had lost Guenztel who's a known Canuck killer.  They went on to lose 7 games in a row.

 

They talked about how poorly that Western Canadian trip was in today's game vs the Flames at home. It was one of the worst road trips out of any team all year

 

Canucks outplayed a struggling team.  Those aren't excuses those are facts.

 

 

Yea lots of fans I’ve talked to just wouldn’t accept that wasn’t the best pitsburg game for them that’s part of the reason we looked so good.

 

 

[Viper007]

2 hours ago, Junkyard Dog said:

They were outscored 10-4 in the 2 games prior. They were struggling and just had lost Guenztel who's a known Canuck killer.  They went on to lose 7 games in a row.

 

They talked about how poorly that Western Canadian trip was in today's game vs the Flames at home. It was one of the worst road trips out of any team all year

 

Canucks outplayed a struggling team.  Those aren't excuses those are facts.

 

 

According to your logic, well the Canucks have been struggling all season so I guess all their losses and wins by the other team don't really count.  Cause you know the Canucks have been struggling all season.

[Junkyard Dog]

49 minutes ago, Viper007 said:

According to your logic, well the Canucks have been struggling all season so I guess all their losses and wins by the other team don't really count.  Cause you know the Canucks have been struggling all season.

I am not sure how you came to that conclusion. It makes zero sense based off what I said. You're just assuming I am saying something entirely different from what I am actually saying. Nothing you're saying relates in anyway what I was talking about.

 

You literally took what I said in my second sentence only. What I said in regards to the Pens was in regards to something else entirely which for some reason you decided to ignore.

 

You're coming at me about something that correlates to what I was actually saying which was an entirely separate topic about Martin.

[Junkyard Dog]

2 hours ago, R3aL said:

Yea lots of fans I’ve talked to just wouldn’t accept that wasn’t the best pitsburg game for them that’s part of the reason we looked so good.

 

 

Today's game is different. Avs carried the play but we won. Martin played well and got some good bounces/luck(Avs hit like 6 posts and the off the boards behind Martin and through the crease) but in games like this you'll usually need them to achieve victory.

[Viper007]

11 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

I am not sure how you came to that conclusion. It makes zero sense based off what I said. You're just assuming I am saying something entirely different from what I am actually saying. Nothing you're saying relates in anyway what I was talking about.

 

You literally took what I said in my second sentence only. What I said in regards to the Pens was in regards to something else entirely which for some reason you decided to ignore.

 

You're coming at me about something that correlates to what I was actually saying which was an entirely separate topic about Martin.

I have issues with not giving the Canucks props for the win and instead giving excuses for the Pens.  Saying it was because the Pens were sucking at that time and missing Guentzel.  The Canucks don't control injuries or when teams are playing well or not, they can just play the game.  The Canucks "earned" the win.  You seem to dismiss it and make reasons for the Pens losing the game instead of giving credit to the Canucks for playing a good game on the back end of a back to back game.

[Junkyard Dog]

Just now, Viper007 said:

I have issues with not giving the Canucks props for the win and instead giving excuses for the Pens.  Saying it was because the Pens were sucking at that time and missing Guentzel.  The Canucks don't control injuries or when teams are playing well or not, they can just play the game.  The Canucks "earned" the win.  You seem to dismiss it and make reasons for the Pens losing the game instead of giving credit to the Canucks for playing a good game on the back end of a back to back game.

I neither gave them props or dismissed it. That wasn't what I was even talking about for the 2nd time. 

 

This is what I said

 

Quote

All of his wins are against bottom teams and a slumping aging injured Pens team that were on pace to lose 7 in a row(we were loss 3 of 7 and they got destroyed in the first two losses). Canucks were able to play better against that sort of competition in comparison to some of the top competition they've faced with Demko.

It was in relation to Martin having an easier schedule of teams than Demko, which he has had up until the point I said that(and still to this day considering the amount of games Demko has played in comparison).

 

 

 

You're misrepresenting what I was talking about and trying to create an argument that isn't there. 

 

 

[R3aL]

1 hour ago, Junkyard Dog said:

Today's game is different. Avs carried the play but we won. Martin played well and got some good bounces/luck(Avs hit like 6 posts and the off the boards behind Martin and through the crease) but in games like this you'll usually need them to achieve victory.

We had some iron too notably when petey dented a post, but ya def some good puck luck was needed in a Game like that and we def got more they had so many posts that could have easily gone in. 

 

might be a big confidence boost for them beating the aves too see how they carry themselves next game. Praying stillman doesn’t draw back in randomly 

[Phat Fingers]

On 11/22/2022 at 11:05 AM, Shayster007 said:

Martin has a 3.49 GAA and a save% of .898

 

This is not a goaltending issue, this is 100% a defense issue.

Defence is a team game.  
 

Demko has not been himself.

 

The Forwards aren’t getting back.

 

putting Bo and Petey out on a PK… so which All Star forward is getting down infront of a shot from Makar or Toews?  
 

puting Bo out or Petey with a forward that has to keep his ass in the NHL, that will be the honey badger and Hansen the shit out of it, or Alex Burrows 2.0, that is a bit more logical.  
 

don’t know of this was a face off issue, but goals against on the PK is killing this team. We need to stop those pucks, and it’s been Swiss chees.

 

Not a PK expert, but Demko’s play has been an issue as he is our best PKer by a mile.   Martin is standing up taking the team on his shoulders for now.

 

His play has gotten stronger, Bear has settled into a decent looking role with OEL and Schenn has been awesome. 
 

Hughes is our best player, but looks a tad off his speed.  Still amazing, but maybe his lingering injury is an issue.

 

as for the Ava win.. Dries had a good game. But man that’s a lot of winger for a AHL bottom six go between player to have.  
 

Garland got robbed, the Nucks came to play and that one goal off the skate, if that was Markus Naslund or Danny Sedin… it’s called back… lol. 
 

but Demko is not top atm, Hughes is not 100% and Schenn is at 150% and this team has a underdog complex…. I hope Bruce has the locker room.  He should they let him down and he deserves better. 
 

Bear could be the guy to balance out our second pair with OEL.

 

Myers can eat minutes, so he is effective, price tag aside, and he should be able to play with anyone 5 vs 5 on any pairing… he has been here long enough.

 

I really liked Brisbios when he was up with the team.  Was very effective and his play was a stand out for an ahl call up. 

at least they can score…