Canuck GM’s and draft success: who was best?

[Kevin Biestra]

1 hour ago, Ray_Cathode said:

He endured, and as much as he was traded, teams kept wanting what he brought to the game.

 

Yeah Brent Ashton was one of my favorite solid dependable journeyman 60 point guys like Mel Bridgman and Terry Ruskowski.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

On 8/18/2023 at 12:49 AM, Ray_Cathode said:

You forgot Edler, not at all a bad defenceman. On the other hand, if getting to the Stanley Cup final is any measure: the Sedins went once to the Stanley Cup final, so did Fraser, Gradin and Smyl - two of whom were Milford picks. The year the Sedins were taken was one of the worst drafts in history - I’ll give Burke additional credit… not for scouting… because the Sedins were the class of a nearly empty class… I’ll give him extra credit for that magnificent trade… that was a marvel of advanced engineering, and it took a guy of Burke’s bravado to pull it off - especially getting the guys who picked first to not take a Sedin!

Burke just couldn't get a goalie.  His achilles heel.  Course he had a mandate from ownership to cut costs (which didn't just obviously include players but probably administrative staff like amateur scouts).  He had to deal with no cap (a position made worse with the mentioned strings attached to the team budget).  JB had the green light to spend, spend, spend (like Gillis).  That's a real advantage.  Plus for all of Crawford's faults, he's bloody Bill Belichick compared to the two stiffs JB hired *IN SEVEN FREAKING YEARS* as head coaches.

 

And unlike one former Canucks GM, he *NEVER* blown one (let alone TWO) top ten draft picks as Canucks GM.  Can't say Allen is a blown pick since he did play over 700 games at the NHL level.  OJ had fewer NHL games than bust Brendan Gaunce.

Edited August 19, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Burke just couldn't get a goalie.  His achilles heel.  Course he had a mandate from ownership to cut costs (which didn't just obviously include players but probably administrative staff like amateur scouts).  He had to deal with no cap (a position made worse with the mentioned strings attached to the team budget).  JB had the green light to spend, spend, spend (like Gillis).  That's a real advantage.  Plus for all of Crawford's faults, he's bloody Bill Belichick compared to the two stiffs JB hired *IN SEVEN FREAKING YEARS* as head coaches.

 

And unlike one former Canucks GM, he *NEVER* blown one (let alone TWO) top ten draft picks as Canucks GM.  Can't say Allen is a blown pick since he did play over 700 games at the NHL level.  OJ had fewer NHL games than bust Brendan Gaunce.

Gaunce?  Well that's doing  JV a little dirty.   153 games...11 goals and 24 points.    Allen.  Was a total bust for Vancouver.   When he played with us he was a big, big bust.   In Florida he filled a role.   That he couldn't and didn't ever do in Vancouver.   Jason Strudwick is considered one of the worst D's to ever play for us, and he did as much or more.     Florida ... well they had nobody back then.   Ben Hutton got a job too for Vancouver, because back then we sucked.  So did Adrian Plavsic.   Doesn't mean he was good.   To me anyways, Allen was a blown pick.   Especially given how they promoted him, was expecting a lot more. 

 

Edit:  My eyes suck spraying stuff.  You're right,  OJ was a terrible pick.  It's the most upset, i've ever been, with whom we picked.  Even more than Allen who was >>>> then OJ.  In the end,  Allen to me wasn't a lot different the Stajonov, got us something back that was incredible. 

 

Burke was a good GM.  Nonis was good too.   MG ive got mixed feelings.   Wish Quin was managing that team.  

Edited August 19, 2023 by IBatch

[NewbieCanuckFan]

27 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Gaunce?  Well that's doing  JV a little dirty.   153 games...11 goals and 24 points.    Allen.  Was a total bust for Vancouver.   When he played with us he was a big, big bust.   In Florida he filled a role.   That he couldn't and didn't ever do in Vancouver.   Jason Strudwick is considered one of the worst D's to ever play for us, and he did as much or more.     Florida ... well they had nobody back then.   Ben Hutton got a job too for Vancouver, because back then we sucked.  So did Adrian Plavsic.   Doesn't mean he was good.   To me anyways, Allen was a blown pick.   Especially given how they promoted him, was expecting a lot more. 

 

Edit:  My eyes suck spraying stuff.  You're right,  OJ was a terrible pick.  It's the most upset, i've ever been, with whom we picked.  Even more than Allen who was >>>> then OJ.  In the end,  Allen to me wasn't a lot different the Stajonov, got us something back that was incredible. 

 

Burke was a good GM.  Nonis was good too.   MG ive got mixed feelings.   Wish Quin was managing that team.  

That is true.  Imho, there is Quinn, then Burke

..then everyone else.

[Kevin Biestra]

5 hours ago, IBatch said:

Gaunce?  Well that's doing  JV a little dirty.   153 games...11 goals and 24 points.    Allen.  Was a total bust for Vancouver.   When he played with us he was a big, big bust.   In Florida he filled a role.   That he couldn't and didn't ever do in Vancouver.   Jason Strudwick is considered one of the worst D's to ever play for us, and he did as much or more.     Florida ... well they had nobody back then.   Ben Hutton got a job too for Vancouver, because back then we sucked.  So did Adrian Plavsic.   Doesn't mean he was good.   To me anyways, Allen was a blown pick.   Especially given how they promoted him, was expecting a lot more. 

 

Edit:  My eyes suck spraying stuff.  You're right,  OJ was a terrible pick.  It's the most upset, i've ever been, with whom we picked.  Even more than Allen who was >>>> then OJ.  In the end,  Allen to me wasn't a lot different the Stajonov, got us something back that was incredible. 

 

Burke was a good GM.  Nonis was good too.   MG ive got mixed feelings.   Wish Quin was managing that team.  

 

Heh, I liked Adrien Plavsic but I think I was the only one.

[canuck73_3]

19 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Heh, I liked Adrien Plavsic but I think I was the only one.

I always hoped he’d break out shame he didn’t. 

[Ray_Cathode]

On 8/19/2023 at 8:36 AM, NewbieCanuckFan said:

Burke just couldn't get a goalie.  His achilles heel.  Course he had a mandate from ownership to cut costs (which didn't just obviously include players but probably administrative staff like amateur scouts).  He had to deal with no cap (a position made worse with the mentioned strings attached to the team budget).  JB had the green light to spend, spend, spend (like Gillis).  That's a real advantage.  Plus for all of Crawford's faults, he's bloody Bill Belichick compared to the two stiffs JB hired *IN SEVEN FREAKING YEARS* as head coaches.

 

And unlike one former Canucks GM, he *NEVER* blown one (let alone TWO) top ten draft picks as Canucks GM.  Can't say Allen is a blown pick since he did play over 700 games at the NHL level.  OJ had fewer NHL games than bust Brendan Gaunce.

Burke also struggled to fill in a team behind the core. That too, might have been frustrated, as you say, by budget constraint. But scouting under Burke and Nonis was kind of a hill between two valleys. Still gotta go with my guy Jake, though, for top dog.

[Viper007]

On 8/17/2023 at 1:52 PM, Primal Optimist said:

I think I am gonna get Hammered on this thought, but none the less, here is an opinion for your consideration:

 

We drafted Petey, Brock, Huggy, Podz, in the first round

Hogger and Demko in the top half of the second round...

 

So who is our later round 'gems' that good drafting departments manage to find, several eastern clubs come to mind with deep drafting ability. I don't really see that in the Canucks front office, to be blunt. 

 

WHo is our best Canucks draftee NOT selected higher than 48th overall that is a current Canucks Asset? Jet Woo? Jack Rathbone? (Jack is six years post draft year and not in the lineup soooo....?)

 

So  with that in mind, what is the logic of paying Stan Smyl to be a scout?  I am really not in favour of keeping any of our scouting staff who have been Canucks scouts for six years or longer based on the idea that they are over the long term rather unsuccessful beyond the consensus top 48 picks, where lets face it, it is hard to actually totally whiff, knowing where all the various talking heads rank the first couple rounds going into the draft...

 

Sorry to not have a favourable opinion on our longer term scouts, i know they are doing their job but results matter in these kinds of jobs. I love talking to Stan for instance at Royals games on the odd occasion where He has sat near me, he has great insight into the game, to me, a fan. But we need a fourth rounder to flourish at least once a decade imo to consider our draft department in the upper third, and in my opinion it is NOT there now.\

 

EDIT: and yes i just went and looked, Stan is a bad example as I don't see him on the team scouting list this year, lol..but you get the idea: we need to retool any of our older scouts positions.

 

 

Not going to flame you, but you have to still consider players that were drafted by the GM who aren't still with the club.  Just because they got traded away doesn't mean that it doesn't count as a good draft pick or not by the GM at the time.  IE. McCann, Forsling. 

 

IMO the GM gets too much credit/criticism for draft picks.  It's mainly the scouting team that determines who gets picked.

[Primal Optimist]

35 minutes ago, Viper007 said:

Not going to flame you, but you have to still consider players that were drafted by the GM who aren't still with the club.  Just because they got traded away doesn't mean that it doesn't count as a good draft pick or not by the GM at the time.  IE. McCann, Forsling. 

 

IMO the GM gets too much credit/criticism for draft picks.  It's mainly the scouting team that determines who gets picked.

so from like 2005ish till now, two guys? I think the exceptions prove the rule. hehe. the Canucks draft team, historically has been terrible, aside from consensus top 45 picks, which you don't need an expensive scouting department to select from, lol. There are likely others yeah, but it is a very weak crop of NON top talent, yet other teams find them every year. 

[Viper007]

37 minutes ago, Primal Optimist said:

so from like 2005ish till now, two guys? I think the exceptions prove the rule. hehe. the Canucks draft team, historically has been terrible, aside from consensus top 45 picks, which you don't need an expensive scouting department to select from, lol. There are likely others yeah, but it is a very weak crop of NON top talent, yet other teams find them every year. 

I'm assuming you mean 2015.  Since 2005, i'm sure many scouts have come/gone within the organization.  Hell they've changed the head scout like 3 times within the 8 years of Benning era.

[Primal Optimist]

I meant 2005, but whatever makes you happy. I am not here to argue.

[Viper007]

3 minutes ago, Primal Optimist said:

I meant 2005, but whatever makes you happy. I am not here to argue.

Oh so we're comparing the organization as a whole and not a specific GM regime?  OK.  What are we considering a success for after draft 45 picks?  Most teams don't get top talent after the 2nd round other than a few here and there.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Viper007

[Primal Optimist]

Just now, Viper007 said:

Oh so we're comparing the organization as a whole and not a specific GM regime?  OK.  What are we considering a success for after draft 45 picks?

It doesnt matter. Forget I said anything. It was just an opinion not a wish to defend a doctoral thesis. Take care. 

[Viper007]

Just now, Primal Optimist said:

It doesnt matter. Forget I said anything. It was just an opinion not a wish to defend a doctoral thesis. Take care. 

No no nothing to defend.  I totally agree with you.  Our drafting has been pretty dismal.  But Benning has had the best success, which is sad.

[NewbieCanuckFan]

On 8/21/2023 at 6:46 PM, Viper007 said:

No no nothing to defend.  I totally agree with you.  Our drafting has been pretty dismal.  But Benning has had the best success, which is sad.

He's also had a number of fairly high picks and the payroll to hire alot of scouts.  Burke never had that luxury.

[IBatch]

On 8/24/2023 at 12:58 PM, NewbieCanuckFan said:

He's also had a number of fairly high picks and the payroll to hire alot of scouts.  Burke never had that luxury.

Burke had a 4th and a 2nd or 3rd.   That was a bad team when he took over from Keenan but had very good bones (and a ton of youth coming up or on the team already).  Of course he did his draft day gymnastics, which at one point even think included the first overall (Patrick Stefan lol ) which ended up sending a decent/good young top four with loads of potential (Brian McAbe was a tough hockey player too, got in the league because is his nasty and his willingness to drop the gloves) .. so Brian Burke had 2,3,4th overall picks.  He used them to draft Allen (a total bust for us, wasn't at all like advertised) at 4th, and the Sedins.    So he did have that luxury and some.   5th,5th,6th,7th versus 2,3,4 is pretty even.    JV, OJ, EP, QHs.    Who's going to be the better?   

Brian McAbe went on to be one of the better offensive defensemen (and never lost his grit, his can opener was the best i've ever seen, got caught maybe 1 out of 3 times lol) of that era for Florida and then Toronto.   

 

Edit:  As far as "luxury" goes,  Quin and the guys before them, we're the ones who didn't have that luxury.  Since then scouting and development staff has more then tripled.     It started during Burkes era, a little before.    Burke was actually the guy who under Quins request, find out if Bure had played enough games and get the proof to be drafted.   Burke did the leg work, got the proof (nice to have a law background as your right hand man), gave it to Quin and then advised him NOT to waste the pick on Bure ... because "that's a small body gentleman".   Funny how things haven't changed. 

 

Id rank Milford, Quin, Burke, JB so far.   As drafting goes.    Quin found more in the later rounds... and most of the players on Burkes teams came from the Quin and to a degree Keenan era, directly or indirectly.    Ohlund.  Jovo.  Aucion. Sopel. Strudwick.  Naslund.   Bertuzzi.  Scatchard.  Cooke.   Walker.   Peca - cups of coffee and sure I missed some too. 

 

 

Morrison?  Don't remember.  But Peca-Mogilny- Morrison.   

 

What Burke did, laid the ground work for after he left with the Sedins, Bieksa and Kesler, which during the Burke era, he had to regularly defend (Sedin sisters ... a lot of people weren't happy with how they played, they couldn't excel in that stifling system - even thought of quitting a couple times including when they first came over and played against Thornton in a young stars/prospect thing and were totally owned by him - and Burke had a really hard time finding anyone to play with them).    Who else did he actually draft?   Chubarov?  Ruutu I think.  And that guy who he screwed up his contract talks with that went on to play some decent hockey in PHI, Umberger.  Six drafts I think without checking.    Two HHOFers, no other GM can say that.    It's close between Quin and Burke, Quin wins over sheer quantity though, and Linden, Bure, Nedved  we're all great picks,  Nedved of course became Hedican, who was a solid top four D.   Peca .. well it would be tough to say whom was better, Kesler or Peca.    Walker ugh ... what a waste (thanks Keenan!).    Aucion and Hedican went on to have more success, one a cup, the other close to a Norris finalist in NYI. 

 

Edit:  Basically Quin/Keenan built the majority of the WCE era team.  Burke and Nonis created the core of  the Sedin era team (post Naslund).  Allvin will hold onto Miller, EP and QHs as long as he can, but doubt much more come from the JB era once the dust settles.  

Edited August 27, 2023 by IBatch

[IBatch]

On 8/8/2023 at 2:28 AM, Kevin Biestra said:

 

A lot of these names were much better than people who weren't watching back then will realize.

 

Bannerman was an All Star and Hanlon got Vezina votes in multiple years.  Derlago was a 40 goal scorer.  Brent Ashton 1000 games.  Dirk Graham a Selke winner and Hawks captain.  Lanz a 50 point defenseman.  Lidster held the Canucks D scoring record for almost 40 years.  Butcher also an All Star and NHL captain.  Wendell Young a legit 1B/2A goalie.

 

People will hopefully know Vaive for his three 50 goal seasons and any Canucks history aficionado ought to know Smyl, Skriko and Sundstrom...but even all four of these guys are underappreciated some decades later.

 

Anyway Milford was really good but these were also some strong draft years.  With regard to an earlier comment...Vaive would probably be the counterexample to the suggestion he never drafted a true star.  But of course we traded him and Derlago to go big in the early 80s and it actually paid off with the 1982 run.

 

Not sure what you mean by Ashton in 1985 if we're talking about Brent Ashton.  We had drafted and traded him before the 1982 run I think.  Very solid and underappreciated player...just a dependable 1000 game, 60 points a season kind of guy...like Mike Foligno or Tony McKegney.

 

Just read this again.   Glad you're around to set the record straight for that era.   It's all too easy to go back a couple decades, when careers are over and say "we could have picked so and so".    Or done this or that. 

It is valid to point out those were some strong drafts, because they were.   Especially 79-83 or so.    It's no surprise we haven't won a cup when we compare our drafting to say the Oilers.    They absolutely killed it.    Milford still did a lot better than quite a few of his peers though.    So did Quin, as did Burke.   JB?  Well it looked for a few years there, that he was doing something very special.    It's too bad he sucked at most everything else, his timing more than anything.   Covid killed his plans and he did the worst thing possible and doubled down too early.    I bet EP would have already signed, if there were 2-3 up and coming stars on the team right now.   This idea that our fanbase can't survive a total rebuild, has cost us at least five years.   And possibly cost a lot more.    Hopefully Allvin can pray to the Mighty Quin, and trade his way out of the mess we currently are in.   Which looks to be the mushy middle.   At least for a couple more years.  

[IBatch]

On 8/19/2023 at 7:53 PM, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Heh, I liked Adrien Plavsic but I think I was the only one.

No worries.   I liked this Carbanoue guy, who was the captain and leading scorer for a local inline skate league.    Wasn't around long, but his story was great and he fought (literally) hard to make the team and seemed to have all the right tools to be a dark horse late bloomer bottom six checking type, with some decent hands.   Never happened though.   So get an esoteric like or dislike for a flash in the pan.    Harold Druken is another guy I thought might stick (young guy) but never did.   Scheaffer too.  Scatchard ... seemed destined for a career bottom six guy too for awhile, his rookie fight with Thornton was epic.   Those two really seemed to hate each other, 

 

As for Adrian Plavsic, at the time my mates and I were still missing Butcher and others like Snepsts, Lidster and often screamed at the TV when he made mistakes lol.   Became a lightning rod and would groan when they put him out.   Hedican and Aucion ... we were cautious and not very trusting of the next guy or new guy.     Murray Baron.    Liked his game.    Not many D's just starting out are mistake free.   McAbe used to can opener guys with his stick while slew footing them all the time, loved it when the refs weren't watching, but early on his timing wasn't great, often put us on the PK.   Jovo was too small.   We had all sorts of biases based on the crop of guys before them.  

Edited August 27, 2023 by IBatch

[NewbieCanuckFan]

7 hours ago, IBatch said:

Burke had a 4th and a 2nd or 3rd.  

He had one (the other was obtained by his 'wheeling & dealing'.

 

"Edit:  As far as "luxury" goes,  Quin and the guys before them, we're the ones who didn't have that luxury.  Since then scouting and development staff has more then tripled.     It started during Burkes era, a little before.    Burke was actually the guy who under Quins request, find out if Bure had played enough games and get the proof to be drafted.   Burke did the leg work, got the proof (nice to have a law background as your right hand man), gave it to Quin and then advised him NOT to waste the pick on Bure ... because "that's a small body gentleman".   Funny how things haven't changed. "

 

heh, "It ain't cheating if you don't get caught".  Not accusing anybody of doing 'skullduggery' but story does sound a bit fishy that mysterious gameday sheets were "found" listing Bure's name.  Hey, if I was a defendant in a case, I'd want a lawyer like Burke.

 

Also, while the Griffith's family were running into financial issues (money losses on the Grizzlies for example), I don't think Quinn had the edict from ownership to 'cut payroll' like Burke had (re: from players to administrative staff like scouting).  And this was during the time with no cap (where other teams could just outspend you for free agents/players).

 

edit:  I may have the timelines confused, as heh, we're talking like well over twenty years ago.

Edited August 27, 2023 by NewbieCanuckFan