[PROPOSAL] VAN - NJD BLOCKBUSTER

[qwijibo]

6 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Obviously, New Jersey does this only if they can sign Petey to an extension.  Petey is a better player than Hughes.  Offensively and defensively.  We are talking about a potential 120-point player who can win the Selke.  If he is on that New Jersey team, Petey might be able to win the scoring title.  Podkolzin is a nice piece for New Jersey, he would literally be their biggest forward.  I am actually high on D-Petey.  I think he is an Edler clone.  At the end of the day, it all depends on what New jersey thinks of our younger players and who they are high on.  For all we know, they could really be in love with Podkolzin.  He had 14 goals as a rookie, so there is alot of potential there.

 

If I am New Jersey, I probably am not trading the Hughes brothers right now, as there is no reason to.  It's just a hypothetical trade at this point.  I'm sure New Jersey thinks Luke can be a top pairing Dman so they will wait to develop him...

Hughes pretty much matched Petterssons point output this past year and he did it being 2 1/2 years younger.  I think it's premature to declare EP40 the superior player when Hughes is 2 years behind in development.  

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, qwijibo said:

Hughes pretty much matched Petterssons point output this past year and he did it being 2 1/2 years younger.  I think it's premature to declare EP40 the superior player when Hughes is 2 years behind in development.  

There is no knowledgeable hockey mind that would choose Jack Hughes over Petey. 

[dm_ranger]

1 hour ago, Alflives said:

There is no knowledgeable hockey mind that would choose Jack Hughes over Petey. 

But we all know a drunk one that would pick Petey over Jack 

[Elias Pettersson]

3 hours ago, qwijibo said:

Hughes pretty much matched Petterssons point output this past year and he did it being 2 1/2 years younger.  I think it's premature to declare EP40 the superior player when Hughes is 2 years behind in development.  

First off, Petey won the Calder. Jack did not. Second, Petey has been playing on a much inferior team. If Petey was on that New Jersey team he is probably getting 120 points. Third, Petey is much better defensively and is at the same level as Hischier in that regard. 
 

Petey is a complete centre. He is Jack and Hischier combined into one player. Nobody is taking Jack over Petey. 

[qwijibo]

6 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

First off, Petey won the Calder. Jack did not. Second, Petey has been playing on a much inferior team. If Petey was on that New Jersey team he is probably getting 120 points. Third, Petey is much better defensively and is at the same level as Hischier in that regard. 
 

Petey is a complete centre. He is Jack and Hischier combined into one player. Nobody is taking Jack over Petey. 

Hughes put up 99 points as a 21 year old.  Yes Pettersson is better ATM. But to assume Hughes is done refining his game as a kid who just turned 22 is myopic.  Both players still haven't hit thier ceilings. 

 

But Hughes is also signed to a very team friendly deal for 7 years.  Even if Pettersson signs it's going to be for a lot more than $8m.  Considering where he is already and adding in his contract I think most GM's would value Hughes over Pettersson 

[dougieL]

13 hours ago, Codez27 said:

Van:

 

Petey

Hoglander 

Boeser (50% retained)

2nd round pick 

 

Njd:

 

Jack Hughes

Luke Hughes

 

Remember that Jack is locked up at one of the most efficient deals in the NHL. His trade value is through the roof. Pettersson will presumably be looking for a deal that is way more lucrative than Jack's. Even if you think Pettersson is a better player (which I think is debatable), Jack's actual trade value is much higher simply because of the contract.

 

Then even if you think Jack and Pettersson are a wash (which they aren't), then why would NJ trade Luke for Hoglander, Boeser (50% retained), 2nd round pick?

 

We'd have to include Willander and multiple unprotected 1st round picks for NJ to even sniff at it.

[dougieL]

1 hour ago, Elias Pettersson said:

First off, Petey won the Calder. Jack did not. Second, Petey has been playing on a much inferior team. If Petey was on that New Jersey team he is probably getting 120 points. Third, Petey is much better defensively and is at the same level as Hischier in that regard. 
 

Petey is a complete centre. He is Jack and Hischier combined into one player. Nobody is taking Jack over Petey. 

Wait...Calder trophy has zero bearing on trade value at this point in their careers...

 

Second, it's true that if Pettersson joins NJ, he'd probably score more points, mostly because he'd be playing on the same team as Jack. Similarly, if Jack joins the Canucks, he'd probably score more points, mostly because he'd be playing on the same team as Pettersson...or do you mean if Pettersson took Jack's place on the NJ team, he'd score 120pts? 

 

I'd probably agree with you that Pettersson is more solid defensively at this point, though remember that Jack is 2 years younger. I could see a world though, where at their peaks, Pettersson is still the more complete player. But Jack is so young that I think it's hard to predict at this point.

 

But I still come back to...Jack's cap hit is only 8m. I highly doubt we'd get Pettersson for anywhere near 8.

[Elias Pettersson]

8 minutes ago, dougieL said:

Wait...Calder trophy has zero bearing on trade value at this point in their careers...

 

Second, it's true that if Pettersson joins NJ, he'd probably score more points, mostly because he'd be playing on the same team as Jack. Similarly, if Jack joins the Canucks, he'd probably score more points, mostly because he'd be playing on the same team as Pettersson...or do you mean if Pettersson took Jack's place on the NJ team, he'd score 120pts? 

 

I'd probably agree with you that Pettersson is more solid defensively at this point, though remember that Jack is 2 years younger. I could see a world though, where at their peaks, Pettersson is still the more complete player. But Jack is so young that I think it's hard to predict at this point.

 

But I still come back to...Jack's cap hit is only 8m. I highly doubt we'd get Pettersson for anywhere near 8.

The cap hit for sure is the real difference maker.  If Petey is playing with Meier and Bratt and doesn't need to be concerned about defence because Hischier is on the 2nd line, then he is easily getting 120 points, maybe even more.  If Jack is playing with Kuzmenko and Mikheyev and Miller has to be our defensive centre, is Jack really in a better position than he is now?

 

Jack got 99 points.  Doesn't mean he will get any more than that.  Matthews has already peaked at 106 points.  Kaprizov peaked at 108 points.  Last year he was on a pace for only 91 points.  So, it's not a given that Jack will be a 120-point scorer in the future.  We will see...

Edited September 14, 2023 by Elias Pettersson

[qwijibo]

25 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

The cap hit for sure is the real difference maker.  If Petey is playing with Meier and Bratt and doesn't need to be concerned about defence because Hischier is on the 2nd line, then he is easily getting 120 points, maybe even more.  If Jack is playing with Kuzmenko and Mikheyev and Miller has to be our defensive centre, is Jack really in a better position than he is now?

 

Jack got 99 points.  Doesn't mean he will get any more than that.  Matthews has already peaked at 106 points.  Kaprizov peaked at 108 points.  Last year he was on a pace for only 91 points.  So, it's not a given that Jack will be a 120-point scorer in the future.  We will see...

Pettersson scored 103 with a winger shooting at an unsustainable  27% accuracy on a system that by in large ignored defence.  There's no guarantee Pettersson will ever top last season any more thsn there is that Hughes will .  Saying a 21 year old has topped out his potential is just silly.  

 

I'm not gonna get in a passing match about who's better or who could be better.  The bottom line is Hughes has more TRADE VALUE due to his younger age and cheap contract.  

[Elias Pettersson]

21 minutes ago, qwijibo said:

Pettersson scored 103 with a winger shooting at an unsustainable  27% accuracy on a system that by in large ignored defence.  There's no guarantee Pettersson will ever top last season any more thsn there is that Hughes will .  Saying a 21 year old has topped out his potential is just silly.  

 

I'm not gonna get in a passing match about who's better or who could be better.  The bottom line is Hughes has more TRADE VALUE due to his younger age and cheap contract.  

This is debatable and only an opinion.  More teams would be interested in a 200' centre who plays a complete game regardless of the cap hit.  Also, Jack Hughes doesn't even know how to win a faceoff or kill penalties.  So, he is not even a true centre.  I would put BIG money on Petey getting a better return value as a complete centre than a 5'10" player who can't even win a faceoff, doesn't hit and doesn't block shots...

[qwijibo]

4 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

This is debatable and only an opinion.  More teams would be interested in a 200' centre who plays a complete game regardless of the cap hit.  Also, Jack Hughes doesn't even know how to win a faceoff or kill penalties.  So, he is not even a true centre.  I would put BIG money on Petey getting a better return value as a complete centre than a 5'10" player who can't even win a faceoff, doesn't hit and doesn't block shots...

Hockeydb has Hughes at 5'11 - 175.  So despite being 3" shorter that Pettersson  he weights tge same. No need to try to make him sound smaller than he is 

 

And Once again. He just turned 22.  Pettersson's faceoff percentage at 21 was 44.3%. That's better than Hughes last season but still nothing to write home about.  Pettersson's game has matured. Hughes will too. Do you think the kid is a finished product at 21? 

[Elias Pettersson]

9 minutes ago, qwijibo said:

Hockeydb has Hughes at 5'11 - 175.  So despite being 3" shorter that Pettersson  he weights tge same. No need to try to make him sound smaller than he is 

 

And Once again. He just turned 22.  Pettersson's faceoff percentage at 21 was 44.3%. That's better than Hughes last season but still nothing to write home about.  Pettersson's game has matured. Hughes will too. Do you think the kid is a finished product at 21? 

His faceoff percentage is 35%.  Do you think that somehow that will improve?  Petey's hasn't improved much since he was 21 but at 44% it's at least tolerable.  At 35%, you aren't even a true centre.  Who is actually taking the faceoffs for Hughes, because last year he took less than 500 faceoffs even though he plays 20 minutes a night?  Is a player who takes less than 500 faceoffs a year and doesn't kill penalties considered a true centre?  Can you name another centre like that?  They must have Hischier or McLeod coming out to take faceoffs in the dzone for Hughes, as his dzone starts are only 35%.  Meanwhile, Petey's dzone starts are at 47% and he takes his own faceoffs.  Complete player all the way.  

 

Hughes isn't a physical player either, so it doesn't matter how much he weighs.  He doesn't hit and doesn't block shots.  Do you think he is going to change his game?  Petey at the very least tries to be a somewhat physical presence in games and blocks shots, kills penalties, he is very engaged in all aspects of the game.  His trade value is through the roof, regardless of his contract status.  Hughes is a glorified winger at this point.  He cannot be considered a true centre until he is trusted enough to take his own faceoffs in the dzone.

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

42 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

His faceoff percentage is 35%.  Do you think that somehow that will improve?  Petey's hasn't improved much since he was 21 but at 44% it's at least tolerable.  At 35%, you aren't even a true centre.  Who is actually taking the faceoffs for Hughes, because last year he took less than 500 faceoffs even though he plays 20 minutes a night?  Is a player who takes less than 500 faceoffs a year and doesn't kill penalties considered a true centre?  Can you name another centre like that?  They must have Hischier or McLeod coming out to take faceoffs in the dzone for Hughes, as his dzone starts are only 35%.  Meanwhile, Petey's dzone starts are at 47% and he takes his own faceoffs.  Complete player all the way.  

 

Hughes isn't a physical player either, so it doesn't matter how much he weighs.  He doesn't hit and doesn't block shots.  Do you think he is going to change his game?  Petey at the very least tries to be a somewhat physical presence in games and blocks shots, kills penalties, he is very engaged in all aspects of the game.  His trade value is through the roof, regardless of his contract status.  Hughes is a glorified winger at this point.  He cannot be considered a true centre until he is trusted enough to take his own faceoffs in the dzone.

Honestly, I feel like Pettersson has a lot of defensive zone starts because the Canucks suck.  He always had the intelligence and skills necessary to become an elite two-way forward, which bode well for a team that always struggles to gain possession.  

 

Yes, Pettersson is an extremely rare talent who has both insane offensive and defensive skills.  But Jack Hughes is also an insane offensive talent who likely hasn't hit his ceiling.  He isn't going to change his game, but I think it's reasonable to expect him to get even better.  It's always going to be an uneven comparison when you pit a two-way forward against a more one-dimensional forward.  It's like comparing.... Nate MacKinnon to Patrice Bergeron.  Bergeron isn't twice as good just because he's great on both sides of the ice.  What I'm trying to say is that it's just not a clear-cut debate.  You ask 100 people whether they prefer Jack or Petey and you'll likely get a 50/50 split.

[Elias Pettersson]

32 minutes ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

Honestly, I feel like Pettersson has a lot of defensive zone starts because the Canucks suck.  He always had the intelligence and skills necessary to become an elite two-way forward, which bode well for a team that always struggles to gain possession.  

 

Yes, Pettersson is an extremely rare talent who has both insane offensive and defensive skills.  But Jack Hughes is also an insane offensive talent who likely hasn't hit his ceiling.  He isn't going to change his game, but I think it's reasonable to expect him to get even better.  It's always going to be an uneven comparison when you pit a two-way forward against a more one-dimensional forward.  It's like comparing.... Nate MacKinnon to Patrice Bergeron.  Bergeron isn't twice as good just because he's great on both sides of the ice.  What I'm trying to say is that it's just not a clear-cut debate.  You ask 100 people whether they prefer Jack or Petey and you'll likely get a 50/50 split.

Patrice Bergeron is a career 65-70 point centre.  Nathan Mackinnon is pushing 115 points.  You are comparing apples to oranges.  Compare Bergeron to Steve Yzerman or Sergei Fedorov.  Or Pavel Datsyuk.  Who are you taking?  Yzerman, Fedorov and Datsyuk are all 100-point elite two-way centres.  You can't compare Bergeron to them.  Just like you can't compare Jack Hughes to Petey.  Petey had more points last year than Hughes, more hits, more blocks, better faceoff percentage, kills penalties.  What exactly does Hughes have over Petey that 50 people out of 100 would choose him?  If Vancouver makes the playoffs last year, then Petey is most likely a Selke finalist and top 5-6 in the Hart voting.  No way Jack gets more Hart votes than Petey if Vancouver is a legit playoff team.  

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

25 minutes ago, Elias Pettersson said:

Patrice Bergeron is a career 65-70 point centre.  Nathan Mackinnon is pushing 115 points.  You are comparing apples to oranges.  Compare Bergeron to Steve Yzerman or Sergei Fedorov.  Or Pavel Datsyuk.  Who are you taking?  Yzerman, Fedorov and Datsyuk are all 100-point elite two-way centres.  You can't compare Bergeron to them.  Just like you can't compare Jack Hughes to Petey.  Petey had more points last year than Hughes, more hits, more blocks, better faceoff percentage, kills penalties.  What exactly does Hughes have over Petey that 50 people out of 100 would choose him?  If Vancouver makes the playoffs last year, then Petey is most likely a Selke finalist and top 5-6 in the Hart voting.  No way Jack gets more Hart votes than Petey if Vancouver is a legit playoff team.  

Actually yeah, let's compare Datsyuk to MacKinnon, then.  It's still apples to oranges.  But you gotta make the trade somewhere, and those two seem to have equal value.

 

Look at it this way.  A lot of folks here wouldn't be upset if we traded Petey for Jack straight up.  I sure as hell know the OP wouldn't be upset about it.  Good luck getting Petey for anything close to $8M, though...

 

  

 

If you don't like my favourite Twitter user, let's use your favourite Twitter user:

Again - I'm not saying I'd pick Jack Hughes over Pettersson.  But they are toe-to-toe in terms of the value they bring to their respective teams.

[Elias Pettersson]

22 minutes ago, Bob.Loblaw said:

Actually yeah, let's compare Datsyuk to MacKinnon, then.  It's still apples to oranges.  But you gotta make the trade somewhere, and those two seem to have equal value.

 

Look at it this way.  A lot of folks here wouldn't be upset if we traded Petey for Jack straight up.  I sure as hell know the OP wouldn't be upset about it.  Good luck getting Petey for anything close to $8M, though...

 

  

 

If you don't like my favourite Twitter user, let's use your favourite Twitter user:

Again - I'm not saying I'd pick Jack Hughes over Pettersson.  But they are toe-to-toe in terms of the value they bring to their respective teams.

The 2019 draft class.  So, you are comparing Jack Hughes to Kaapo Kakko, Kirby Dach, Alex Turcotte, Dylan Cozens, Trevor Zegras and Vasili Podkolzin and saying that it's unfair to compare him to his peers?  Like none of those guys are even elite players.  It's like comparing Petey to Boeser.  Such an awful draft class in the top 10.

 

I don't use WAR cards to compare players, I use them only for information purposes to acquire data.  So those numbers mean nothing to me.  Do those WAR cards show the difference in faceoff %, hits, blocks, scoring chances, between these two players?  Who is on the ice in the last minute of the game?  Hughes or Hischier?  Petey or Miller?  Does Hughes even play in his own end?  Does the WAR card track that?  

 

They are definitely not toe to toe in terms of the value they bring to their teams.  Hughes has to rely on Hischier and to a lesser extent McLeod for any defensive faceoff or dzone coverage for every single game.  He has to be monitored for who is on the ice for the other team and making sure he has the right matchups.  Vancouver doesn't have to worry about this with Petey as he is a complete centre.  He can be on the ice at any point in the game, and he does not have to be taken off the ice for mathup purposes.  The other team actually has to match up against him every time.  

 

Jack Hughes is a glorified winger at this point in his career, but you are trying hard to argue that he is equivalent to a 100-point elite two-way centre.  You say most people will agree with you, so I will start a poll and see what happens.  Forget about the cap hit, it's straight up Jack or Petey.  May the best man win...

[Ilunga]

4 hours ago, Elias Pettersson said:

The cap hit for sure is the real difference maker.  If Petey is playing with Meier and Bratt and doesn't need to be concerned about defence because Hischier is on the 2nd line, then he is easily getting 120 points, maybe even more.  If Jack is playing with Kuzmenko and Mikheyev and Miller has to be our defensive centre, is Jack really in a better position than he is now?

 

Jack got 99 points.  Doesn't mean he will get any more than that.  Matthews has already peaked at 106 points.  Kaprizov peaked at 108 points.  Last year he was on a pace for only 91 points.  So, it's not a given that Jack will be a 120-point scorer in the future.  We will see...

Brother you just can't make predictions like that.

With that sort of logic Stammer had peaked at 28 when he scored 98 points, three seasons later he scored 106.

I know there was covid interupted seasons inbetween however he still had his best season ever at 32. 

Crosby just had his best season in four years, second best season in ten years at 36. 

 

Matthews is just hitting his prime and has the talent around him to put up more than 106 points sometime in the next four years.

Kaprizov doesn't have the same quality of talent around him so it makes it more difficult for him to pass his career best season to date ATM. 

 

ATM if I had to choose between Petey and Jack on talent alone I would choose Petey.

However if I was building a team from scratch and being limited by the cap I would choose Jack.

 

I believe both players will only get better.