A Game Of Thrones: To the point of the TV show, no spoilers beyond that

[canuckistani]

2 hours ago, RUPERTKBD said:

Threats are one thing.....people say things out of anger that they don't mean. Every time Dany has brought up something genocidal, she's always seen reason before carrying those acts out. As I said earlier, it's why she went against the advice of Ellaria and Yara and didn't raze KL to the ground when she had three dragons and the Lannisters had zero scorpions.

 

All of her other ruthless acts were carried out against perceived injustice. The Wise Masters of Slaver's Bay are slave traders who crucify children. The Tarlys had just finished the sack of Highgarden, an ally of Dany's. The Lannisters are, well, the Lannisters.....However, the smallfolk of Kings Landing were innocents. The same kind of innocents that kept Dany in Meereen, when she could have been sailing to Westeros long before she did.

 

The Dany who freed those slaves from Astapor, Yunkai and Meereen never would have murdered all those noncombatants in KL.

 

BTW: When did Dany threaten to burn Volantis to the ground?

 

 

Um okay, but they are an entire social class. That includes women, children and the elderly. Like Roman citizens of the old. Or Athenians. Or rich white Americans from 200 years ago. Saying 'kill the masters' is the same as saying 'kill the Romans/Athenians/white rich americans'. It involves killing a LOT of innocent people. That makes her a genocider already. 

[Canorth]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

It’s being a while, I read the first books years before the show came out and then the last two book years ago.  For some reason I though she had some of her ally’s already landed in Westeros scoping things out?  Not an army but someone.  It gets mixed up with the show a bit but the show passed the books a while ago.  Wish he finished the series ... maybe he will ... or it will be like the wheel of time (Jordan) and someone else will have to finish it after he dies ha ha.

Definitely. I've read them three times and still get mixed up with the show. 

 

What pisses me off, is that he continues to write.....He has written a 3000 page chronicle of the history of the Targaryen family. I appreciated it, nonethelesss; however, he needs to focus. My guess is that he has no idea where this story is going to go

Edited May 14, 2019 by Canorth

[Tre Mac]

What if it's the Three-Eyed Raven(s) that's making all the Targaryens mad?  Dany's father heard 'burn them all' and planted wildfire all around KL, those voices were probably about the walkers but he thought it meant everyone, and maybe Bran is doing the same with Dany?  Maybe all the deaths in KL were part of a smaller sacrifice to ensure a targaryan doesn't take the thorne and Bran knows this.

[UFCanuck]

2 minutes ago, Canorth said:

Definitely. I've read them three times and still get mixed up with the show. 

 

What pisses me off, is that he continues to write.....He has written a 3000 page chronicle of the history of the Targaryen family. I appreciated it, nonetje

 a guess is that he has no idea where this story is going to go

Have you seen the way he looks, I think he's hoping he dies before he has to write the ending. Now that's a twist and will keep people guessing forever. 

I'm kidding he'll live forever.

[Canorth]

7 minutes ago, playboi19 said:

Have you seen the way he looks, I think he's hoping he dies before he has to write the ending. Now that's a twist and will keep people guessing forever. 

I'm kidding he'll live forever.

That's part of my point. He's old and getting older. I just hope that he has manuscripts for both "Winds of Winter" and "A dream for Spring".... so that his minions can at least can finish it off and and bring closure to this epic tale.

[RUPERTKBD]

24 minutes ago, canuckistani said:

Um okay, but they are an entire social class. That includes women, children and the elderly. Like Roman citizens of the old. Or Athenians. Or rich white Americans from 200 years ago. Saying 'kill the masters' is the same as saying 'kill the Romans/Athenians/white rich americans'. It involves killing a LOT of innocent people. That makes her a genocider already. 

Disagree. The Masters as I saw it were the leaders of the respective houses. That's why Hizdahr was complaining about the crucifixion of his father.

 

In any event. This comes down to a disagreement. You buy into the theory that all of the "foreshadowing" the show writers have been throwing in explains Dany's razing of Kings Landing. That's a fair enough assessment and I admit that there are several that agree with your position..

 

Me? I don't buy it. Maybe if they had dedicated more time to Dany's descent into madness, but for me, the pacing was far too fast for me to believe that this wasn't a complete departure from the character we've been watching for several seasons.

[RUPERTKBD]

5 minutes ago, Canorth said:

That's part of my point. He's old and getting older. I just hope that he has manuscripts for both "Winds of Winter" and "A dream for Spring".... so that his minions can at least can finish it off and and bring closure to this epic tale.

It's a bit hard to believe, but Uncle George is only 70 years old. Still, he looks like a heart attack waiting to happen and unlike Tolkien, he doesn't have any kids who can finish his work for him.

 

TBH, back when there was only the books, I thought he had already died. After a Feast for Crows, I waited for DWD and waited.....and waited....and waited....

 

...when it finally came out I was a bit shocked and had to go back and re-read the first four, because I had forgotten so much.

[Gnarcore]

2 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

It's a bit hard to believe, but Uncle George is only 70 years old. Still, he looks like a heart attack waiting to happen and unlike Tolkien, he doesn't have any kids who can finish his work for him.

 

TBH, back when there was only the books, I thought he had already died. After a Feast for Crows, I waited for DWD and waited.....and waited....and waited....

 

...when it finally came out I was a bit shocked and had to go back and re-read the first four, because I had forgotten so much.

The actor who played Barristan recently said the books are actually done but George had a deal with D & D to wait until the series is over to release them.  I hope that this is true. 

[RUPERTKBD]

8 minutes ago, Gnarcore said:

The actor who played Barristan recently said the books are actually done but George had a deal with D & D to wait until the series is over to release them.  I hope that this is true. 

Martin has refuted that. I'm not sure if it was "Fake News!" or if Ian McElhinney had an axe to grind. (He was apparently, unhappy with how his character was handled)

 

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/may/14/george-rr-martin-scorns-absurd-claims-hes-finished-writing-game-of-thrones

[Gnarcore]

11 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

Martin has refuted that. I'm not sure if it was "Fake News!" or if Ian McElhinney had an axe to grind. (He was apparently, unhappy with how his character was handled)

 

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2019/may/14/george-rr-martin-scorns-absurd-claims-hes-finished-writing-game-of-thrones

Well thanks for crushing my dreams....  

 

His character was handled poorly.....  No way he goes out to those punks like that. 

[RUPERTKBD]

1 minute ago, Gnarcore said:

Well thanks for crushing my dreams....  

 

His character was handled poorly.....  No way he goes out to those punks like that. 

Anytime.

 

I'm here all week....

[canuckistani]

36 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

Disagree. The Masters as I saw it were the leaders of the respective houses. That's why Hizdahr was complaining about the crucifixion of his father.

 

In any event. This comes down to a disagreement. You buy into the theory that all of the "foreshadowing" the show writers have been throwing in explains Dany's razing of Kings Landing. That's a fair enough assessment and I admit that there are several that agree with your position..

 

Me? I don't buy it. Maybe if they had dedicated more time to Dany's descent into madness, but for me, the pacing was far too fast for me to believe that this wasn't a complete departure from the character we've been watching for several seasons.

Hizdahr was also 'not there' when his father got cruicified. (when Dany says if its so bad, why wernt you crucified, Hizdar says because he was away)

So it again boils down to, is it okay to genocide all Romans/Greeks/Rich White Americans from 200 years ago for being slavers ? Even if it were just the men who headed the household, its still carte blanche genocide. Its genocide when you target an entire class of people, regardless of what that class is, without individual trials for their crimes. 

Saying 'lets kill all pirates' is also genocide. Her actions in slavers bay is why i've never liked her as a character. 

[Gurn]

Dany can still be killed by a dragon, not burnt, but eaten will work.

[IBatch]

58 minutes ago, Canorth said:

Definitely. I've read them three times and still get mixed up with the show. 

 

What pisses me off, is that he continues to write.....He has written a 3000 page chronicle of the history of the Targaryen family. I appreciated it, nonethelesss; however, he needs to focus. My guess is that he has no idea where this story is going to go

He made one of the best fanstasy series ever, and you could see how it was developing so that Snow and Danny would eventually meet up and everyone (I thought including Cersia) would have a titanic battle and it would end there.  So many loose ends left it’s frustrating.  Read the first book when it came out and loved it.  Years later read the rest and the first book again.  

[RUPERTKBD]

1 minute ago, canuckistani said:

Hizdahr was also 'not there' when his father got cruicified. (when Dany says if its so bad, why wernt you crucified, Hizdar says because he was away)

So it again boils down to, is it okay to genocide all Romans/Greeks/Rich White Americans from 200 years ago for being slavers ? Even if it were just the men who headed the household, its still carte blanche genocide. Its genocide when you target an entire class of people, regardless of what that class is, without individual trials for their crimes. 

Saying 'lets kill all pirates' is also genocide. Her actions in slavers bay is why i've never liked her as a character. 

If we want to get pedantic about the definition of genocide, I'll concede the point.

 

My original point still stands: The people Dany killed in the past were all people who had committed some sort of transgression in her estimation. The citizens of KL had done no such thing and she knew it.

 

She didn't raze Meereen, Yunkai or Astapor for exactly that reason....she knew how many innocents would die along with the guilty.

[canuckistani]

3 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

If we want to get pedantic about the definition of genocide, I'll concede the point.

 

My original point still stands: The people Dany killed in the past were all people who had committed some sort of transgression in her estimation. The citizens of KL had done no such thing and she knew it.

 

She didn't raze Meereen, Yunkai or Astapor for exactly that reason....she knew how many innocents would die along with the guilty.

its not pedantic dude, pedantic would be, whether executing all the SS officers is genocide or not, coz some of them were just guards, etc. 
You cannot execute an entire social class and not call it genocide. 

 

As for transgressions- in her mind the citizens of KL are aiding and abetting 'tyranny' of those who stole from her. She even makes a reference that unlike slaves of Mireen, they didnt rise up. 

[Gnarcore]

4 minutes ago, RUPERTKBD said:

 

 

She didn't raze Meereen, Yunkai or Astapor for exactly that reason....she knew how many innocents would die along with the guilty.

Thing is I think she would have burned KL and Meereen if not held in check by others. With Missandei dying I think what ever reason was left in her to listen to others is gone.  She had snapped and gone Mad Queen.  Like many things the past 2 seasons we have a lot of plot convenience going on but as I've said before there is some ground laid for it  

[canuckistani]

And IMO she didn't raze Mireen or Yunkai is precisely because it does not benefit her cause. Think about it. She is a foreigner with an army of 9,000 unsullied. Thats it. her dragons were way too young and both her advisors said the unsullied are a start but not enough to take over Westeros. So she has to stay. But she is an outsider, in a very old part of the world. Her bloodline means nothing, how is she supposed to conquer and rule and feed her army ? The answer is obvious - cause/triumph social change, so you can endear yourself with a social class, at the expense of another social class, so that you can gain followers, support and power base. Her 'championing of the slaves' was a means to an end - she's always had a streak of 'burn everything down if i am angry' in her, which makes her position with slaves a standard political move. 

[RUPERTKBD]

18 minutes ago, Gnarcore said:

Thing is I think she would have burned KL and Meereen if not held in check by others. With Missandei dying I think what ever reason was left in her to listen to others is gone.  She had snapped and gone Mad Queen.  Like many things the past 2 seasons we have a lot of plot convenience going on but as I've said before there is some ground laid for it  

She more or less was this time too. Remember she agreed to stop the attack if the bells were rung?

 

The "plot convenience" is exactly my point. The show writers have been trying to convince us that she's been descending into madness for quite some time, but from my perspective, it all happened in that one moment when she was sitting on Drogon's back, listening to the bells ring.

 

As I said earlier, what would have been in character, would be her flying straight at the Red Keep and reducing it (and supposedly Cersei) to rubble.

[RUPERTKBD]

13 minutes ago, canuckistani said:

And IMO she didn't raze Mireen or Yunkai is precisely because it does not benefit her cause. Think about it. She is a foreigner with an army of 9,000 unsullied. Thats it. her dragons were way too young and both her advisors said the unsullied are a start but not enough to take over Westeros. So she has to stay. But she is an outsider, in a very old part of the world. Her bloodline means nothing, how is she supposed to conquer and rule and feed her army ? The answer is obvious - cause/triumph social change, so you can endear yourself with a social class, at the expense of another social class, so that you can gain followers, support and power base. Her 'championing of the slaves' was a means to an end - she's always had a streak of 'burn everything down if i am angry' in her, which makes her position with slaves a standard political move. 

Again, I think we just need to agree to disagree.

 

I don't believe her decisions in Slaver's Bay were based on military expedience. I believe she truly cared about those people. I doubt that either of us will convince the other, so we might as well leave it at that.