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Failure in Management and Coaching


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#1 *Buzzsaw*

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 10:24 PM

*
POPULAR

MANAGEMENT

Most important Failure

Everyone in Vancouver has known for the last 3 years that the Sedins need to get a BIG, TOUGH, SMART, forward with a goal scoring touch to play with them and make space.

It's been clear since early in the season that Kassian isn't that player.

Mike Gillis had the opportunity to get someone for the playoffs, hell for the season, and he didn't. Instead he got a small, non-physical player in Roy, exactly what the team didn't need.

He knew the team is in the last frame of its window to win the cup, it's not getting any younger, and he still fails, when all kinds of other teams around the league were able to succeed. Draft choices??? Sell them, it doesn't matter, get the player you need so you can win NOW.

This is the NUMBER ONE reason the team is losing.

Other failures:

Not keeping/getting some real skilled toughness for the 2nd, 3rd and 4th lines. Letting Aaron Volpati go is an example.

Kassian for Hodgeson: 'Nuff said

COACHING

Most important failure:

You don't have a big tough skilled forward to play with the Sedins, the Sedins are unable to manage defensively in the playoffs, their point production is way down, now even Daniel is refusing to shoot the puck, everybody knows their moves, other teams know that 99% of the time they are going to try to get it to the front of the net where Burrows is, what do you do?

Split them up. Match them with two tougher linemates. After all, most lines have only one passer, make a Sedin the passer on two different lines. How about Burrows, Daniel and Kesler??? Or Henrik, Higgins and Hansen? Toughness and skill. But AV does not have the imagination or guts to do this.

2nd most important failure:

Edler and Bieksa have been shaky all year, continually making errors and they have zero confidence.

WHY ARE THEY PLAYING TOGETHER?

Double your trouble??? :picard:

Get at least one of them off the ice and replace him with Ballard who had a decent season and who has not been nearly as error prone. Or if you want to take a chance and hope that Barker responds to Cup fever, replace both of them, with Ballard and Barker.

3rd Most important failure:

The Powerplay

Replace Edler on the 1st unit power play with Garrison. Garrison has a better shot, he handles the puck better, and he doesn't make stupid errors defensively.

Get a bigger body in front of the net. Burrows may be good at deflecting the puck, but only when he is on his feet, and lately he has been flat on his back or so tied up with the defenceman he can't even wave at the puck.

The body should be either Kesler, Higgins or Kassian, I lean to Kassian or Higgins, since Kesler has the wicked one timer from the half circle, but whoever it is just has to be able to stand up to the battering and stay on his feet. Change the personel in front of the net till you get someone who can stay there. Hell, even Sestito, EVEN Edler. (that's one place where we don't have to worry about him coughing up the puck)

But no, AV doesn't have the imagination or guts.

I could go on, and I'm sure others can add... :sadno:
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#2 *Buzzsaw*

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:02 PM

Interested to hear the comments.
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#3 The Magician

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:03 PM

HAHA this thread is so lonely. Only solution is to make CDC the owner, GM, and coach.
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#4 Special Ed

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:06 PM

I agree that there has been a failure at the top. However I'm not sure that changes are needed. Mistakes were made but underneath there was still a lot of success in recent years. What I would like to see is an acknowledgement of those failures by management. Then to hear of a clear cut plan on turning this team back in the right direction. Also the goalie controversy has to be over by next season.

As I have already mentioned a few times. One reason for the failure was the need to get bigger and tougher after the Boston series. This diminished our scoring ability and the Hodgson trade is a good example of that. During the offseason one of our goalies should be traded for an offensive player.

Edited by Special Ed, 05 May 2013 - 11:09 PM.

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If you like looking at statistics to determine who's better, you're just a casual fan.

2.41 season GAA isn't very impressive. Let's not get into playoffs and his SV%.

Cory Schneider is the next Patrick Roy.


#5 JelloIce

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:20 PM

As far as I'm concerned, AV's coaching system can turn Kassian from a developing power forward into a stay at home defenceman.
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#6 Legend Killer

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:21 PM

Mismanagement of assets.
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For the first time in a long time.. the future looks bright..

#7 Trebreh

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:22 PM

Luongo 5.2m (Backup)
Ballard 4.2m as a depth defenceman on the team that AV doesn't even use.
Booth 4.2m who was suppose to be a top 6 forward....
Malhotra 2.5m - Why didn't we just buy him out in the summer or traded him if Gillis didn't plan on playing him?
Raymond 2.5m - He should've been dealt at the deadline when his stock was high. Another missed opportunity by the genius management.

That's 18m of our salary.........

Failure to re-sign Torres because he dared ask for a 700k raise and an extra year that he earned. Then Gillis tried to trade a pick to get him at the deadline?! horrible management.

Then after Torres debacle, he goes on a 4th line shopping spree signing borderline AHLers Ebbett, Duco, Pinozotto, Wiese to replace what Torres gave us.
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#8 ButterBean

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:38 PM

Some of AV's countless mistakes was having Edler on the 1st unit instead of Garrison and pairing Edler with Bieksa.
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#9 MJDDawg

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:45 PM

Why is anyone surprised at the current state of affairs?

We have a team that other than for a handful of legitimate NHL stars is stocked full of third line forwards and 2nd/3rd pairing defencemen. It's been the Mike Gillis way. He's taken a roster that led the league in most offensive categories and transformed it into a laughing stock.
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Always vigilant and on the lookout for Tiger Singh,The Stork, Shamu101, Mangoes, Cucumbers, Proballhockeyplayer, Dal Colle, DontTradeEdler, RespectYourEdlers23, D.T.E. and...

 


#10 wallstreetamigo

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:52 PM

This is what happens when the GM and coach want a team where everyone plays the exact same way.

Other teams have actual roles for players. And other teams recognize when certain players are sucking and they give others a chance to step up and contribute in their stead.

Av may as well only dress:

Sedins, Burrows, Kesler, Hansen, Higgins, Raymond, and Roy at forward and Edler, Bieksa, Hamhuis, and Garrison on defence

No one else matters no matter how much those players suck they will never get a chance anyway. It is a major reason this team cannot win or score in the playoffs.

They would rather lose with their core playing their system and "hanging in there" with other teams rather than give those doghouse guys a shot to make a difference.
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#11 Deadweed

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:52 PM

MANAGEMENT

Most important Failure

Everyone in Vancouver has known for the last 3 years that the Sedins need to get a BIG, TOUGH, SMART, forward with a goal scoring touch to play with them and make space.

It's been clear since early in the season that Kassian isn't that player.

Mike Gillis had the opportunity to get someone for the playoffs, hell for the season, and he didn't. Instead he got a small, non-physical player in Roy, exactly what the team didn't need.

He knew the team is in the last frame of its window to win the cup, it's not getting any younger, and he still fails, when all kinds of other teams around the league were able to succeed. Draft choices??? Sell them, it doesn't matter, get the player you need so you can win NOW.

This is the NUMBER ONE reason the team is losing.

Other failures:

Not keeping/getting some real skilled toughness for the 2nd, 3rd and 4th lines. Letting Aaron Volpati go is an example.

Kassian for Hodgeson: 'Nuff said

COACHING

Most important failure:

You don't have a big tough skilled forward to play with the Sedins, the Sedins are unable to manage defensively in the playoffs, their point production is way down, now even Daniel is refusing to shoot the puck, everybody knows their moves, other teams know that 99% of the time they are going to try to get it to the front of the net where Burrows is, what do you do?

Split them up. Match them with two tougher linemates. After all, most lines have only one passer, make a Sedin the passer on two different lines. How about Burrows, Daniel and Kesler??? Or Henrik, Higgins and Hansen? Toughness and skill. But AV does not have the imagination or guts to do this.

2nd most important failure:

Edler and Bieksa have been shaky all year, continually making errors and they have zero confidence.

WHY ARE THEY PLAYING TOGETHER?

Double your trouble??? :picard:

Get at least one of them off the ice and replace him with Ballard who had a decent season and who has not been nearly as error prone. Or if you want to take a chance and hope that Barker responds to Cup fever, replace both of them, with Ballard and Barker.

3rd Most important failure:

The Powerplay

Replace Edler on the 1st unit power play with Garrison. Garrison has a better shot, he handles the puck better, and he doesn't make stupid errors defensively.

Get a bigger body in front of the net. Burrows may be good at deflecting the puck, but only when he is on his feet, and lately he has been flat on his back or so tied up with the defenceman he can't even wave at the puck.

The body should be either Kesler, Higgins or Kassian, I lean to Kassian or Higgins, since Kesler has the wicked one timer from the half circle, but whoever it is just has to be able to stand up to the battering and stay on his feet. Change the personel in front of the net till you get someone who can stay there. Hell, even Sestito, EVEN Edler. (that's one place where we don't have to worry about him coughing up the puck)

But no, AV doesn't have the imagination or guts.

I could go on, and I'm sure others can add... :sadno:


how would like a coaching offer?
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#12 wallstreetamigo

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:53 PM

If Gillis and AV survive this it is obvious that the Aquilinis only care about profit, not winning it all.

Canucks fans have no business calling the Sharks playoff choke artists. None at all.

Edited by wallstreetamigo, 05 May 2013 - 11:54 PM.

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#13 MoneypuckOverlord

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:54 PM

Some of AV's countless mistakes was having Edler on the 1st unit instead of Garrison and pairing Edler with Bieksa.


Edler has costed us playoffs games last year, and this year. This guy really needs to go. I will gladly trade him a long with Bieksa in hopes of getting 1 star defencemen.


If Gillis and AV survive this it is obvious that the Aquilinis only care about profit, not winning it all.

Canucks fans have no business calling the Sharks playoff choke artists. None at all.


Guarnateed they will be back next year.

Edited by MoneypuckOverlord, 05 May 2013 - 11:55 PM.

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Players Nikolaj Ehlers have been compared too by the fan base of the Vancouver Canucks.

 

1 Pavel Bure

2 Markus Naslund

3 Nathan Mackkinon

4 Jonathan Drouin.

5 Jonathan Tavares

 

http://bleacherrepor...d-top-prospects

combine results.  Ehlers 5'11 162 lbs of solid rock.  


#14 wallstreetamigo

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:58 PM

Edler has costed us playoffs games last year, and this year. This guy really needs to go. I will gladly trade him a long with Bieksa in hopes of getting 1 star defencemen.

Guarnateed they will be back next year.


Unfortunately I too think AV and Gillis survive.

And hell yes to Bieksa and Edler for a true star dman.
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#15 samurai

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 12:14 AM

Luongo 5.2m (Backup)
Ballard 4.2m as a depth defenceman on the team that AV doesn't even use.
Booth 4.2m who was suppose to be a top 6 forward....
Malhotra 2.5m - Why didn't we just buy him out in the summer or traded him if Gillis didn't plan on playing him?
Raymond 2.5m - He should've been dealt at the deadline when his stock was high. Another missed opportunity by the genius management.

That's 18m of our salary.........

Failure to re-sign Torres because he dared ask for a 700k raise and an extra year that he earned. Then Gillis tried to trade a pick to get him at the deadline?! horrible management.

Then after Torres debacle, he goes on a 4th line shopping spree signing borderline AHLers Ebbett, Duco, Pinozotto, Wiese to replace what Torres gave us.



Perhaps on the Mason, but after that yes absolutely some very poor management over the past few years. You can throw in Tanner Glass as well - let him go and then try and get him back a year later. Volpatti as well.

Edited by samurai, 06 May 2013 - 12:17 AM.

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#16 rampage

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 12:33 AM

MG has made a ton of mistakes.


Forget it im not even going to list them all way too many.
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#17 *Buzzsaw*

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 10:42 AM

This is the thread where you talk about Gillis and AV screwing up.
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#18 gradin123

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 10:44 AM

This is the thread where you talk about Gillis and AV screwing up.


Until the Mods lock or remove it.
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#19 skyfall

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 11:01 AM

If Gillis and AV survive this it is obvious that the Aquilinis only care about profit, not winning it all.

Canucks fans have no business calling the Sharks playoff choke artists. None at all.


Now the profit is drying up when tickets have to be discounted. I think whatever discontent there was last year has been doubled or tripled this year by most fans, loyal and casual. At least in Burke's day the team was playing a fun style of hockey while losing. This team plays boring and loses when it counts. I remember when Aquilini fired Nonis and said part of the reason was because his buddies, the season ticket holders, were complaining to him. I'm pretty sure they're pretty pissed off now and letting him know about it. Changes must be made.
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#20 TOMapleLaughs

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 11:07 AM

Gillis up to end of 2010-11 season:
Posted Image


Gillis from end of 2010-11 season to now:
Posted Image


The Gillis Canucks era is Scarface: The Rise and Fall of Tony Montana.
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#21 DIBdaQUIB

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 11:22 AM

IT's not just the mismanagement of the players they have. It's the alienating of top prospects or givcing up on players that later blossum under a different coach/system. It's trading away prospects and picks for reclamation projects and letting proven performers (Torres) walk, only later trying to get them back for more picks/prospects. Not being able to recognize the value of certain layers to the team's success and letting them walk (Salo, Ehrhoff) while spendin huge cap space on failed projects (Ballard, Booth).

MG had a good run with a team that was built mostly by his predecessor. HE has been too generous rewarding "loyalty" and "potential" instead of results. Now the team has a core that can't be moved, has little value regardless based on their reputation as soft and chokers and very little talent in the wings to step in - not like they'd be given a serious chance with AV coaching anyways.

THe core looks tired and uninspired. THe new kids are frustrated 'cause they can't get a chance no matter how they play to take oiver (KAssian last night looked terific with the Twins for a few shifts but AV goes right back to the Burrows lineup.

Say what you will about HOdgson's attitude but he saw the "boys club" and entitlement attitude of teh Nuck's management and knew he had to get out of town or he would waste his best years playing shut down 3rd line minutes.

THis team looks like they have had teh life sucked out of them and I attribute it to constant stupid and ineffective decisions by the coach and GM.
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#22 ALTtimegreat

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 11:32 AM

Luongo 5.2m (Backup)
Ballard 4.2m as a depth defenceman on the team that AV doesn't even use.
Booth 4.2m who was suppose to be a top 6 forward....
Malhotra 2.5m - Why didn't we just buy him out in the summer or traded him if Gillis didn't plan on playing him?
Raymond 2.5m - He should've been dealt at the deadline when his stock was high. Another missed opportunity by the genius management.

That's 18m of our salary.........

Failure to re-sign Torres because he dared ask for a 700k raise and an extra year that he earned. Then Gillis tried to trade a pick to get him at the deadline?! horrible management.

Then after Torres debacle, he goes on a 4th line shopping spree signing borderline AHLers Ebbett, Duco, Pinozotto, Wiese to replace what Torres gave us.

lol Gillis.. this is the guy with a cap advisor and still put canucks in cap trouble
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#23 Bodee

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 11:44 AM

"IT's not just the mismanagement of the players they have. It's the alienating of top prospects or givcing up on players that later blossum under a different coach/system. It's trading away prospects and picks for reclamation projects and letting proven performers (Torres) walk, only later trying to get them back for more picks/prospects. Not being able to recognize the value of certain layers to the team's success and letting them walk (Salo, Ehrhoff) while spendin huge cap space on failed projects (Ballard, Booth)."


This.
But why has it taken so long for CDC to see it? This was all obvious to anyone watching, last year. They have had a long close season to analyse and make plans to upgrade this team and they have royally f----d up.

In fact I got one of my warnings for saying as much after last season.

Edited by Bodee, 06 May 2013 - 11:46 AM.

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#24 SILLY GOOSE

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 11:49 AM

Get at least one of them off the ice and replace him with Ballard who had a decent season and who has not been nearly as error prone. Or if you want to take a chance and hope that Barker responds to Cup fever, replace both of them, with Ballard and Barker.


Delusional to think Ballard is any less error prone than Edler or Bieksa. Ballard would get SHREDDED by San Jose, especially their top two lines.
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#25 oldtimer

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 11:55 AM

The whole Canucks establishment is to blame.Management is arrogant and thought this market would forever buy whatever dysfunctional product they throw on the ice. Starting last year the supposed "sell outs" were manufactured by ownership buying out remaining tickets and this year they could not even sell out a play off game.
This fan base knows its hockey, the team did not perform properly last year nor this year and everyone knew this was not a play off team and yet Gillis would come on the air and pompously act as if they are above it all and they are so knowledgeable they can see things we cannot see.
Somehow we are so deep it is completely ok to have carried for 2 yrs a dman at $4.5M sitting in the press box and this year add a $5.5M goalie sitting every game.
In the playoffs do you want Mason Raymond at 2.5M or Torres at 1.75M suiting up for you. Those were all choices made by Gillis and they had consequences.
Hopefully the whole management team of the Canucks realizes that the arrogance era has come to an end and that they have to earn the fan base back!
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#26 yabadabadoo

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 11:59 AM

We've seen the rapid decay over the past two years of what was once a contending team...there are many factors that have caused this, and yes, the inability of AV and MG to fulfill the mandates both have been given are big factors.

To a lesser degree injuries, the abrupt change in the way the game is being played, the shortened season, aging players, etc. have contributed to the demise, but when faced with these "challenges", the response from management, coaching staff and players was to retreat into its shell like a frightened turtle rather than fighting back.

Ray Shero saw deficiencies and boldly addressed them...same for Peter Chiarelli...MG, well he gave it a good varsity try and came close to Schultz, Clowe, Doan, Torres...well done, MG.

AV couldn't move away from the so-called puck possession game, which is nothing more than cycling the puck around the perimeter of the ice...if you're defending this, why wouldn't you let the Canucks forwards cycle around for 30-40 seconds, watch them wear themselves out, turn the puck over so that you can take an odd-man rush back the other way and score? We gave up so many odd-man rushes over the past few years that ended up with the puck in our net...and couple this with Edler and Bieksa being turnover machines in our zone, it was a recipe for disaster. Add to this the chip and chase method once we had the lead...way to abandon what works in a game, AV.

So now, we have a team that isn't fast enough to keep up with Chicago, Anaheim, San Jose, Edmonton; that isn't big/tough enough to play against LA, St. Louis, Winnipeg; that doesn't have the heart of Columbus, Nashville; leaving Colorado, Calgary, Phoenix, Dallas as the only teams that we'll arguably have a legitimate chance of beating consistently from here on out.

The Sedins have woefully lost their quickness...Burrows is a pariah as far as the officials are concerned, so even though he's mugged on the ice, he won't get a call...Roy, Raymond, Hansen, Higgins -- are a bunch of third/fourth liners disguised as second liners, but they have been exposed for what they are...Kesler and Booth can't stay healthy if their lives depended on it...it's no wonder we can't score more than a goal per game in the playoffs.

MG keeps telling us that we are a good team and he's happy with what he's got...well we've drank enough of that kool aid Mike. Nice results with the "good team"you've assembled. It's time for a serious overhaul.

Aquillini will not have the cajones to fire MG...AV will probably get a pass as well because of the shortened season and injuries. So, I expect this off season to be another one with a bunch of lip service of how tough the western conference is, and that they are going to keep upgrading the team, when it reality, the team will continue to regress.

Where are these BOLD moves you promised MG? Talk is cheap...show us you mean what you say.

After 20+ years of being a season ticket holder, I will not be renewing...the two lockouts, bad product on the ice, and even worse service from the Canucks have left me with no desire to spend any money on the Canucks from here on out...I'd rather pay Shaw Cable a minute amount of what I've paid the Griffiths, Orca Bay and Canucks Sports Entertainment over the years to watch games from the comfort of my family room.

Edited by yabadabadoo, 06 May 2013 - 12:09 PM.

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#27 DIBdaQUIB

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 12:00 PM

"IT's not just the mismanagement of the players they have. It's the alienating of top prospects or givcing up on players that later blossum under a different coach/system. It's trading away prospects and picks for reclamation projects and letting proven performers (Torres) walk, only later trying to get them back for more picks/prospects. Not being able to recognize the value of certain layers to the team's success and letting them walk (Salo, Ehrhoff) while spendin huge cap space on failed projects (Ballard, Booth)."


This.
But why has it taken so long for CDC to see it? This was all obvious to anyone watching, last year. They have had a long close season to analyse and make plans to upgrade this team and they have royally f----d up.

In fact I got one of my warnings for saying as much after last season.


It's never popular to make observations on CDC that are not consistent with the team being "elite" or " just saving themselves". SOMe of us were concerened with how the team played even during the run to the SCF but despite uninspired play for over 2 years and horrible playoff performances, many simply believe this group can get it done.

Perhaps it's understandable to not want to acknowledge that the guys that at one point looked so strong and capable have fallen adn can't get up. Fans invest a lot of themselves in the team and players and want to believe.

WHat seems to escape many posters ie that even those who are critical of the players, team and management, feel the same hurt but are willing to call a spade a spade.
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#28 wendythirteenthrashers

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 12:21 PM

As far as I'm concerned, AV's coaching system can turn Kassian from a developing power forward into a stay at home defenceman.


AGREED//// you can hardly pin this on kass..... he is being ruined by avs bull doghouse style coaching.... at the beginning of the season he was with the twins..scoring and confident.... what happens...twins arent producing so he gets demoted and line juggled into oblivion....

hes been one of our best players in the playoffs.... where are the vets?
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#29 yabadabadoo

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 12:29 PM

If Gillis and AV survive this it is obvious that the Aquilinis only care about profit, not winning it all.

Canucks fans have no business calling the Sharks playoff choke artists. None at all.


The Aquillinis have so much money that for Francesco in particular, their ownership of the Canucks is about vanity and picking up hot girls. The dude was a fat, out of shape developer/enterprise farmer having been the beneficiary of what his old man built, before he and his bros formed CS&E...since those early CS&E days, he's slimmed down, picked up a bunch hot girls riding around in his Bentley and limousine, wining and dining them in the private dining rooms at Gotham/Joe Fortes, leading to his divorce proceedings on the grounds of infidelity, so no, it's not really about the money for these guys.

This actually bodes well for Canucks fans, since the ultimate for the Aquillinis would be to win the Stanley Cup, not because of their philanthropic visions, but moreso for their own vanity. If the Canucks ever win the cup and I hear the Aquillinis state publicly that "We did this for you, Vancouver", I will probably puke a little bit in my mouth.

Edited by yabadabadoo, 06 May 2013 - 12:34 PM.

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#30 Barry_Wilkins

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 12:57 PM

Not keeping/getting some real skilled toughness for the 2nd, 3rd and 4th lines. Letting Aaron Volpati go is an example.
Kassian for Hodgeson: 'Nuff said


I've always hated the expression "nuff said". It's lazy shorthand for: "I just created a great argument that is so awesome it doesn't even need to receive a rebuttal".

Here's mine, anyway. You just contradicted yourself in the above quote. Kassian IS "real, skilled toughness". Players that have talent AND toughness are actually fairly rare. I liked the trade when it happened, but only time will tell if Kassian develops. I'm optimistic, though.

Edited by Barry_Wilkins, 06 May 2013 - 12:57 PM.

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