Lack of hitting one of our BIGGEST problems

[The Lock]

13 hours ago, EdgarM said:

Hits are part of defense. The scores score and the defense stop the opposing team from scoring. If you do not hit the top players such as Kane and Monahan they tend to gain confidence and walk around the defense. Hits stop them from having possession of the puck and gaining that confidence. Why do you think players such as Chara and Pronger were so effective?

I think, first and foremost, puck possession is the most important thing. Coaches, players, media, countless other people have all mentioned how having the puck allows you to generate more scoring chances and eliminate the opposing team's scoring chances.

Puck possession can happen in a number of ways: hits, turnovers, blocked shots, etc. Hits help, but are not the end all.

I think there's a fine line really. Hits are great but, if that hit puts you out of position on defense, shouldn't you not take that hit? There's a difference between hitting just to hit and hitting in a smart way. You don't want to sacrifice defense just to make a hit. Players like Chara and Pronger were effective because they knew WHEN to hit. They didn't just hit for the sake of hitting. Their primary goal was defense first before hitting.

[EdgarM]

51 minutes ago, CBH1926 said:

I am not disagreeing that the hits are not part of the defense.

Hawks were 29th last year and 30th in hits in 2014, 2013 and 2012.

That has not stopped them from winning.

 

If Ducks spent more time playing hockey instead of chasing hits they might have won that series.

If the hit is there, go ahead and make it, but don't get out of position to make one.

Big Z and Pronger were more effective due to their size/skill rather their hitting ability.

I think each individual game is different and I agree some games are just not hitting games. The Canucks play great possession type games when there is little to no hitting. There are also games similar to the last game against Winnipeg where more hits were needed. Part of a great player is to make a hit at the "right time". 

Some times the opposing team is just walking all over us and a few well placed hits would slow them down abit to give our offense the time to come back. This is another area we lack where we get pinned in our own zone and everyone is skating in circles until the opposition scores. A bit of  a panic situation instead of getting a little aggressive to back them off a bit.

[Stormriders]

Reading several of the recent posts, I agree entirely that it is not all about hitting and my post was never intended to imply that.  As I originally said, hitting is only part of the equation, but a very important component.  I for one to not want to see our players skating all over the ice, putting themselves our of position etc. just to get a hit.  But I do want the opposition to know that we can and will hit and want them to be thinking that as they retrieve the puck or handle it.

I never played high level hockey, but a friend of mine did play pro, mostly in Europe.  He said that he was always aware of who was on the ice when he was on, and what they might do.  

As an example of what I mean, even at this early stage in his career, I think teams already know who Jake is and when he is on the ice they are looking for where he is in relationship to them.  They know that a player like him, if he hits them, they will pay the price, and that alone makes them play differently. It also opens up more room for skilled players like McCann and starts to provide more balance in the lineup.  So take well timed hits when they are there and keep the other team honest.  And lastly, please hit those hanging around our crease waiting for tap ins or screening, and if you are not sure how to do it, watch what the opposition usually does to our players hanging around the crease.

 

[two drink minimum]

The lack of hitting on this team pretty sad. If Dorsett Prust and Cracknuts aren't hitting or fighting then they don't need to play every night. The  money the Canucks are paying their 4th line should get them way more grit then they're currently getting.

[Positive Canuck]

Zero Intimidation Factor

Sedins Burrows Higgins Hansen Hamhuis  Vrbata  Edler  Bart Tanev  Sutter  Baerschi ?

sorry but there is absolutely nothing there that would scare a single player in the nhl.

 

 

[Monteeun]

38 minutes ago, Positive Canuck said:

Zero Intimidation Factor

Sedins Burrows Higgins Hansen Hamhuis  Vrbata  Edler  Bart Tanev  Sutter  Baerschi ?

sorry but there is absolutely nothing there that would scare a single player in the nhl.

 

 

I think the problem is that we put a lot of emphasis on defensive players. While they are good at what they do, it just means we lack a little bit of toughness.

[elvis15]

On 11/27/2015, 9:15:19, bigbadcanucks said:

How do I say this without sounding like a patronizing/condescending SOB?  Ever since elvis has refrained from mini-modding, I've read his posts, and have to say that he's an insightful hockey guy, who IMO, knows his stuff, and is someone who brings up good points (some of which I don't agree with, but gets me thinking).  Glad to talk hockey with ya anytime^^^^.

Anyways, bad on me for ignoring elvis's posts in the past...though to my defence, the old elvis was somewhat unbearable at times.  I'm a fan of the new elvis. 

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

EDIT: forgot this was a post about the Canucks not hitting enough...gotta say, the Canucks are endeavoring to play a strong puck possession game, which means that theoretically, they are doing less chasing and are the ones being chased. 

The Canucks game is based on puck pursuit and retrieval, so as someone has already mentioned, it's about take-aways by getting in lanes and using the stick effectively. 

Normally, when you take the body, you take yourself out of the play...this is sort of what I see Jake struggling with -- making the decision to take the body when there is support behind you vs. haphazardly hitting everything in sight.  Hitting and hitting hard has its time and place only if it has the desired effect (i.e., forcing d-men to make plays faster or with more urgency, hopefully resulting in turnovers...Weber is a text book case of someone who can be rushed and intimidated with this tactic), but hitting, IMO, has to deployed with purpose.

And plus, who actually believes the NHL stat line on hits anyways?  This is all subjective tracking by NHL officials that probably have a margin of error >20%.

I'm still the same poster, so no worries on that, but basically if you see a short post from me it's either something to note a similar thread or a joke in response to something else. Skip those if that doesn't interest you, and read the longer ones if they do.

On 11/27/2015, 10:45:29, Stormriders said:

Your reference to the super physical game against the Kings where we lost is a poor example.  That was in fact a good game but if you recall, the outcome was determined by the refs by giving our player, Tom Sestito a 5, 2, 2 for 9 minutes [plus a game] without penalizing the LA player Jordan Nolan at all.  I have never seen that before in all the games I have watched and it was unfair and clearly helped LA win, . . . 'How'd that work out for ya'.  And BTW, it was two years ago, not last year.

Your statement that we outhit every other team in the 2011 playoffs is also false.  In that playoff year, out of 25 playoff games, we outhit 12 times, were outhit 10 times, and three games with even hits.  Please use facts.  

If you were right that we had outhit all the teams in the playoffs in 2011, that would actually support my argument that we need to hit more, because that was our most successful season in the last how many years?, since we got to game 7 for the cup, as close as you can get without winning it.

Actually, the Kings game is even more of a good example because of that. Sestito trying to be overly physical did nothing but hurt the team, and we should have been easily controlling that game if hitting was the be all and end all you're proposing. Nolan could have stood up to Sestito's challenge, but then Sestito could have realized Nolan wasn't playing ball and backed off.

Even if I take your numbers as facts, 12-10-3 is above 500 the last time I checked. Go ahead and look up the hit totals, and then you'll get a better idea of what I'm talking about instead of trying to give a stat that supports my statement and say it doesn't (but then try and say what I said was true and that in supports your argument instead).

In 2011, we did so well because we were the top team in the league in the regular season and were at or near the top of pretty much every important statistic. Hitting was just a bonus. And yet, hitting wasn't enough to win us games when our strengths in other areas failed. Which again is the point.

Chasing the puck and hitting without gaining possession is not important to winning hockey games.

[elvis15]

On 11/27/2015, 1:49:10, hearditall said:

So when playoffs start & a Ferlund, Byfuglien, D.Brown, Lucic, Chara, etc.  starts their role who's gonna step up? Sbisa had his chance last playoffs & I remember he lost most battles... Our D is the same except we've lost grit in Bieksa for Bartkowski..

Alls I'm saying is we need a bit more size & strength especially on the back end. If you can't see that then someone's got the wrong prescriptions...Yes we need more skill too.....

When those guys start running around chasing hits, you move the puck and skate around them. That's how you combat teams with size, and especially when they're throwing guys like Ferlund and Peluso at you who aren't going to be effective outside of hitting.

[Time Lord]

1 hour ago, Positive Canuck said:

Zero Intimidation Factor

Sedins Burrows Higgins Hansen Hamhuis  Vrbata  Edler  Bart Tanev  Sutter  Baerschi ?

sorry but there is absolutely nothing there that would scare a single player in the nhl.

 

 

The point of hockey isn't to scare the other team. It's to beat them.

Should we trade the Sedins for Clutterbuck and Martin? That would make the team more physical and I guess it might scare other teams.

[riffraff]

15 minutes ago, elvis15 said:

When those guys start running around chasing hits, you move the puck and skate around them. That's how you combat teams with size, and especially when they're throwing guys like Ferlund and Peluso at you who aren't going to be effective outside of hitting.

Just like the last playoff series right?

[elvis15]

8 minutes ago, Time Lord said:

The point of hockey isn't to scare the other team. It's to beat them.

Should we trade the Sedins for Clutterbuck and Martin? That would make the team more physical and I guess it might scare other teams.

No kidding, and I think the Sedins intimidate enough with their ability to rip a defence apart with passing and score.

It'd be great if we could build a team of guys with high level skill and who are also fast and big, but it's hard to find those players to begin with, and even harder to keep them all together under the salary cap. I'd rather have skill and determination than size and nothing else.

[elvis15]

8 minutes ago, riffraff said:

Just like the last playoff series right?

If not our series, then certainly the series afterwards against Anaheim showed it. If we'd been smarter about moving the puck out of our own end then Ferlund would have looked like a chump chasing hits and we would have won.

Remind me again what were Benning's comments after the series ended? Was it that we needed to get bigger and more physical, or that we needed more speed?

[riffraff]

1 minute ago, elvis15 said:

If not our series, then certainly the series afterwards against Anaheim showed it. If we'd been smarter about moving the puck out of our own end then Ferlund would have looked like a chump chasing hits and we would have won.

Remind me again what were Benning's comments after the series ended? Was it that we needed to get bigger and more physical, or that we needed more speed?

My post was in response to you oversimplifying and discounting ferlands impact.

 

and I'm sure jb sees the importance of gaining size and speed based on his dealings to date.

 

not being a jerk but your post is full of woulda couldas and More than likely we would lose that series again with our current roster.

 

anaheim has physicality throughout the lineup from lines 1-4.  We certainly do not.  

 

In in defence our physicality starts with sbisa and ends there.

[The Lock]

1 hour ago, elvis15 said:

Remind me again what were Benning's comments after the series ended? Was it that we needed to get bigger and more physical, or that we needed more speed?

He kind of said all 3 things actually. I even looked at a few interviews over the summer before replying to this. Over the course of the summer he acknowledged that we need to improve in all 3 categories.

[Stormriders]

2 hours ago, elvis15 said:

Actually, the Kings game is even more of a good example because of that. Sestito trying to be overly physical did nothing but hurt the team, and we should have been easily controlling that game if hitting was the be all and end all you're proposing. Nolan could have stood up to Sestito's challenge, but then Sestito could have realized Nolan wasn't playing ball and backed off.

Even if I take your numbers as facts, 12-10-3 is above 500 the last time I checked. Go ahead and look up the hit totals, and then you'll get a better idea of what I'm talking about instead of trying to give a stat that supports my statement and say it doesn't (but then try and say what I said was true and that in supports your argument instead).

In 2011, we did so well because we were the top team in the league in the regular season and were at or near the top of pretty much every important statistic. Hitting was just a bonus. And yet, hitting wasn't enough to win us games when our strengths in other areas failed. Which again is the point.

Chasing the puck and hitting without gaining possession is not important to winning hockey games.

Wow, really elvis?  It was because Sestito was overly physical, and not because the refs decided to be unfair and penalize one player 9 minutes and the other NOTHING.  Not an extra 2 or even 5, but nothing on the other side of 9 minutes to one player?  How many times have you see that?  At least be objective instead of trying to defend your position.  I clearly remember when it happened and everyone on here, and yes we can be a bit bias, could not believe the call and the penalties.  Maybe you didn't see the game.

12 - 10 - 3 is indeed above 500, but not by a lot, and hardly a landslide or total dominance.  And last time I checked, the cumulative total in a series does not really mean that much, since results are per game.  Check the scores of each game and see if I am right, because each game stands alone.  If one game you win 7 - 1, and the next you lose 2 - 1, it's still 1 - 1, not 8 - 3.

Your quote that '. . . if hitting was the be all and end all you're proposing', is not remotely accurate.  I clearly said at the start of this post 'To me to be successful, you need the right balance of skill, speed, and physicality. 

And BTW, hitting in 2011 was not a bonus, it was an integral part of the whole, and that's my point.  I never said hitting was the most important, just part of what is important.  And right now we could use a little more.

[Positive Canuck]

2 hours ago, Time Lord said:

The point of hockey isn't to scare the other team. It's to beat them.

Should we trade the Sedins for Clutterbuck and Martin? That would make the team more physical and I guess it might scare other teams.

If you don't see our softness being a problem thats your opinion but not mine. No one is saying the Sedins have to be goons.
But when theyre surrounded by Hansen,Higgins,Vrbata,weber tanev edler hamhuis baershi sutter etc...you start to have too many guys that barely throw a meaningful bodycheck, intimidation is a very real thing in the ice, those that have played the game know this.

As Conn Smythe said, if you can't beat them in the alley you won't beat them on the ice.

 

We need to add Lucic and Buff and hope Pedan and Tryamkin turn into NHLers. 

 

[slickjim23]

People overrate toughness so much in the game of hockey. Just go out there, out skate, out score and out play your opponents and that's all you need. I really don't care if the Canucks are called pansies as long as they're winners. I don't want to watch a team full of 6'5 slow brutes go out and manhandle a bunch of people while getting rekt on the score board. I don't want to watch useless staged fights. Just go play some skilled hockey. That's all that's important. Model the blackhawks.

[Stormriders]

1 minute ago, slickjim23 said:

People overrate toughness so much in the game of hockey. Just go out there, out skate, out score and out play your opponents and that's all you need. I really don't care if the Canucks are called pansies as long as they're winners. I don't want to watch a team full of 6'5 slow brutes go out and manhandle a bunch of people while getting rekt on the score board. I don't want to watch useless staged fights. Just go play some skilled hockey. That's all that's important. Model the blackhawks.

I would love to.  Can I have Kane, Toews, Seabrook, Keith, and Hossa please.

[Me_]

Something bigger than the lack of hitting is going on with the Canucks; something within Canucks culture.

Every year is the same; start great in the rough department, 10 games into the season the hitting slows down and by the 25 game mark, the Canucks seem to be over powered physically.

By playoff time, the teams that make the playoffs and have continued to play rough seem like aggressor on their way to the Cup while the Canucks players are looking at the referees with watery eyes, wondering why the zebras aren't allowing them to play.

Prust, Dotsett, Cracknell, Virtanen, Bartkowski and Sbisa should be plenty of rough. 

I believe the onus is on the coaching staff to keep such a trait constant, and on management in order to change the culture.

Of course, Benning is doing it and hopefully this changes in time before such a player like Lucic is signed. Otherwise, even Lucic will succumb to becoming soft.

[DownUndaCanuck]

Most overrated aspect of the game on these boards, and a 5 page thread and counting sums it up.

You don't win by hitting players, you win by scoring goals. Sure, it's a physical game and hitting has a place every now and then, but hitting is so insignificant compared to speed and pure skill.

Give me a Pat Kane over a Corey Perry any day. I know one player doesn't make a team, and a successful team CERTAINLY needs a couple of players who can throw big hits every now and then, but not many. I think the Canucks have just the right amount of those types of players if not too many.