JM_ Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, kanucks25 said: Throw "analytics" aside. Anybody who watches the game can see Gudbranson is constantly lost in the D-zone and has an extremely difficult time making outlet passes. The "numbers" only support what we see. Really baffling why people are taking such a hard contrarian stand on this lol. I've also seen some great nights out of him too. With the right partner he's capable of bringing valuable things to this team. We need to pair him with whatever version of Brian Campbell we can find. IMO Guddys best games have been with Edler, thats the pairing I'd like to see going forward. Its not contrarian, people just see the value in him as an excellent team mate. It baffles people who appreciate that aspect of team play, when people go hard on the "numbers" and call him things like the worst d-man in the league. Its also very nitpicky. There are lots of complimentary players in the league who need the right pairing or wingers who play well with specific C's, e.g. It doesn't mean they're garbage, just the correct situation to be effective. Edited February 8, 2019 by Jimmy McGill 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SingleThorn Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 2 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said: Its also very nitpicky. There are lots of complimentary players in the league who need the right pairing or wingers who play well with specific C's, e.g. It doesn't mean they're garbage, just the correct situation to be effective. Noticed Dylan Strome doing just that last night. Compare his Arizona analytics to his DeBrincat pairing analytics. Probably slightly different. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toews Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 (edited) Guddy does bring some snarl that our team lacks but he is not the reliable top 4 RHD we thought we were trading for. I think he was re-signed because trade offers were underwhelming. That looks like a mistake now. We could have gotten the same impact from a guy like McQuaid who cost the Rangers a 4th and a depth defenseman and only comes with a 2.75M tag for this season. He will probably take haircut for an extension as well or you could get a pick for him at the deadline. Has every single defenseman performed their worst when paired with Gudbranson? It certainly seems like it. Edited February 8, 2019 by Toews 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 3 minutes ago, SingleThorn said: Noticed Dylan Strome doing just that last night. Compare his Arizona analytics to his DeBrincat pairing analytics. Probably slightly different. bingo. Or Burrows or Hansen with the twins. Sometimes "fit" is everything. I can appreciate a real effort at analysis, if its done well. I really haven't seen it yet. I haven't seen a single hockey analytics site thats provided any real insight, some "ah hah" moment where I really learned something new about a player. Occasionally they do some good video analysis isolating player development, there was a really good one about Stecher last year showing how much smarter his play is. But outside of a few things like that, I've seen nothing that isn't just glorified opinion. But I'm happy to be proven wrong if someone can post a site that provides a breakdown of their full methodology and assumptions, I'd be fascinated to see that. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 4 minutes ago, Toews said: Guddy does bring some snarl that our team lacks but he is not the reliable top 4 RHD we thought we were trading for. I think he was re-signed because trade offers were underwhelming. That looks like a mistake now. We could have gotten the same impact from a guy like McQuaid who cost the Rangers a 4th and a depth defenseman and only comes with a 2.75M tag for this season. He will probably take haircut for an extension as well or you could get a pick for him at the deadline. Has every single defenseman performed their worst when paired with Gudbranson? It certainly seems like it. not Edler. I think experience is the main reason, Eddy's just a calming presence, a smart and still mobile-enough player to be the right partner with Guddy. Hutton is still learning his game, and Pouliot...well he's what he is. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SingleThorn Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 1 minute ago, Jimmy McGill said: bingo. Or Burrows or Hansen with the twins. Sometimes "fit" is everything. I can appreciate a real effort at analysis, if its done well. I really haven't seen it yet. I haven't seen a single hockey analytics site thats provided any real insight, some "ah hah" moment where I really learned something new about a player. Occasionally they do some good video analysis isolating player development, there was a really good one about Stecher last year showing how much smarter his play is. But outside of a few things like that, I've seen nothing that isn't just glorified opinion. But I'm happy to be proven wrong if someone can post a site that provides a breakdown of their full methodology and assumptions, I'd be fascinated to see that. I was, many years ago, involved in analytics in the business world, mainly insurance and agriculture. When basing big money decisions on analytics, you want as few variables as possible. Hockey analytics can point to a trend and do have a modicum of value, but there are way too many variables to be taken seriously. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhillipBlunt Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 9 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said: not Edler. I think experience is the main reason, Eddy's just a calming presence, a smart and still mobile-enough player to be the right partner with Guddy. Hutton is still learning his game, and Pouliot...well he's what he is. I remember what's being said about Gudbranson was said about Edler a few years back. That Eagle needed a calming presence (like Erhoff or Salo) to help him keep his game composed. Now Edler is the calming presence. When Guddy is paired with Edler, his game is solid. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 10 minutes ago, SingleThorn said: I was, many years ago, involved in analytics in the business world, mainly insurance and agriculture. When basing big money decisions on analytics, you want as few variables as possible. Hockey analytics can point to a trend and do have a modicum of value, but there are way too many variables to be taken seriously. whats the most important thing about reading a balance sheet? the list of assumptions. Same thing here with hockey analytics. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duodenum Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 (edited) 43 minutes ago, kanucks25 said: Throw "analytics" aside. Anybody who watches the game can see Gudbranson is constantly lost in the D-zone and has an extremely difficult time making outlet passes. The "numbers" only support what we see. Really baffling why people are taking such a hard contrarian stand on this lol. When all the analysis points in one direction, attack the analysis. You're facing off against the Church of Real Gud. 22 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said: bingo. Or Burrows or Hansen with the twins. Sometimes "fit" is everything. I can appreciate a real effort at analysis, if its done well. I really haven't seen it yet. I haven't seen a single hockey analytics site thats provided any real insight, some "ah hah" moment where I really learned something new about a player. Occasionally they do some good video analysis isolating player development, there was a really good one about Stecher last year showing how much smarter his play is. But outside of a few things like that, I've seen nothing that isn't just glorified opinion. But I'm happy to be proven wrong if someone can post a site that provides a breakdown of their full methodology and assumptions, I'd be fascinated to see that. What kind of analysis do you need for the defenseman who gives up the most goals in the league on a team that's dead center in goals against in the league (16th)? Three times in the last three games, Gudbranson has been beat by a pass going through him to a forward directly behind him. That's not new either, he's given up 50 goals in 50 games (50 in 50!). 18 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said: not Edler. I think experience is the main reason, Eddy's just a calming presence, a smart and still mobile-enough player to be the right partner with Guddy. Hutton is still learning his game, and Pouliot...well he's what he is. And play him against the top lines in the league when he's struggling so much against weaker competition? Let's see him defend against the 3rd and 4th liners adequately first. Edler has done great this year with Tanev, he also did well playing with Stecher. I'd much rather have one of those two facing the top lines. Pouliot also looked better when paired with Edler, should we do that instead? What happens when there's an injury and Gudbranson has to play with someone else? Zero versatility is not a good thing. We can throw all the analytics aside and point to one simple stat: goals against. Why do you think he has one of the worst goals against in the league on a team that is 16th in goals against in the league? We have all the "analysis" coming from one side and denial coming from the other. What is the argument that Gudbranson is good? The "other side" would like to see some analysis as well. Edited February 8, 2019 by Duodenum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 7 minutes ago, Duodenum said: What kind of analysis do you need for the defenseman who gives up the most goals in the league on a team that's dead center in goals against in the league (16th)? We can throw all the analytics aside and point to one simple stat: goals against. Why do you think he has one of the worst goals against in the league on a team that is 16th in goals against in the league? OK lets look at goals against - there are a lot of good players ahead of and in the neighbourhood of Guddy on that stat: http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?report=plusminus&reportType=season&seasonFrom=20182019&seasonTo=20182019&gameType=2&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=teamGoalsAgainst I think he has that because he's been playing a lot with Del Zotto and Pouliot. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 40 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said: I've also seen some great nights out of him too. With the right partner he's capable of bringing valuable things to this team. We need to pair him with whatever version of Brian Campbell we can find. IMO Guddys best games have been with Edler, thats the pairing I'd like to see going forward. Its not contrarian, people just see the value in him as an excellent team mate. It baffles people who appreciate that aspect of team play, when people go hard on the "numbers" and call him things like the worst d-man in the league. Its also very nitpicky. There are lots of complimentary players in the league who need the right pairing or wingers who play well with specific C's, e.g. It doesn't mean they're garbage, just the correct situation to be effective. As I noted earlier in this thread, this is the crux of the matter IMO. Nobody's denying EG has had struggles since coming here or are claiming he has stats he doesn't. He does have some skills that we would be otherwise missing without him. As soon as you trade him, you're looking for a guy that replaces those things. Problem is, he needs a steady 2 way partner that covers his deficiencies to be effective (Campbell in FLA, Edler here). We have guys coming that would fit that mold (Brisebois and Juolevi) but until then, he's always going to look 'bad' playing with the uncomplimentary depth guys we currently have available. We could pair him with Edler (and maybe that comes to pass over the next couple years as Edler ages down the roster) as you suggest but as of now, that limits Edler's (much needed) offensive contributions and Gudbranson maxes out with 2nd pair minutes/usage, in a best case scenario. AKA - not the best use of Edler who can contribute more, with more minutes, in more situations, with other partners (Tanev, Stecher, possibly Hughes at some point). 30 minutes ago, Toews said: Guddy does bring some snarl that our team lacks but he is not the reliable top 4 RHD we thought we were trading for. I think he was re-signed because trade offers were underwhelming. That looks like a mistake now. We could have gotten the same impact from a guy like McQuaid who cost the Rangers a 4th and a depth defenseman and only comes with a 2.75M tag for this season. He will probably take haircut for an extension as well or you could get a pick for him at the deadline. Has every single defenseman performed their worst when paired with Gudbranson? It certainly seems like it. IMO, be more upset that management has done SFA to get a complimentary partner to get the most out of the guy they traded for, if anything. THAT is where the error/issue lies IMO. I mean I get it...we're mid rebuild and you're going to have a loose collection of sometimes uncomplimentary parts while rebuilding. But if you're going to trade for a guy, try to have a plan in place to get the most out of him. Perhaps they expected OJ to be here by now in that role? Somebody send a memo out to all the haters constantly accusing me of be a paid lackey of management and always agreeing with everything they do, I just critiqued them! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhukini Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 (edited) I'm not his biggest fan in the world but I think his last two games have been on the better side of okay actually. Sure nothing positive really transpires off his sticks, but we could say that about a lot of players on this roster, and there aren't glaring glaring mistakes to his game like there were before, and if there are its usually only been 1 a game. I mean he is only being played 13-15 minutes a game right now which is probably what he is capable of, and that's fine. better 13 minutes of okay hockey then playing him above his means at 18-20 minutes and having mistake after mistake. Edited February 8, 2019 by Zhukini Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 6 minutes ago, aGENT said: We could pair him with Edler (and maybe that comes to pass over the next couple years as Edler ages down the roster) as you suggest but as of now, that limits Edler's (much needed) offensive contributions and Gudbranson maxes out with 2nd pair minutes/usage, in a best case scenario. AKA - not the best use of Edler who can contribute more, with more minutes, in more situations, with other partners (Tanev, Stecher, possibly Hughes at some point). I just see it as the best overall mix of pairings, vs. leaving some serious gaps with a Pouliot-Guddy show. To me this configuration gives us the best overall group, sure maybe it takes away a few minutes from Edler but overall I think this would look much better. Hughes-Tanev Edler-Guddy Hutton-Stecher 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said: I just see it as the best overall mix of pairings, vs. leaving some serious gaps with a Pouliot-Guddy show. To me this configuration gives us the best overall group, sure maybe it takes away a few minutes from Edler but overall I think this would look much better. Hughes-Tanev Edler-Guddy Hutton-Stecher It gets more out of Guddy...at the expense of getting less out of Edler. Is that the right mix....? Edited February 8, 2019 by aGENT 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duodenum Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 12 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said: OK lets look at goals against - there are a lot of good players ahead of and in the neighbourhood of Guddy on that stat: http://www.nhl.com/stats/player?report=plusminus&reportType=season&seasonFrom=20182019&seasonTo=20182019&gameType=2&filter=gamesPlayed,gte,1&sort=teamGoalsAgainst I think he has that because he's been playing a lot with Del Zotto and Pouliot. Yes, we are now looking at the same list and you know what I see? A bunch of players that have played 150+ more minutes than Gudbranson this year. You need to "analyse" the stats you are given. Might want to take a peak at the points column as well, those other dmen sure seem to do a lot more offensively to make up for the goals against as well. Gudbranson's #1 teammate, by far, has been Ben Hutton this year. You should see Hutton's stats without Gudbranson, night and day. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 Just now, Duodenum said: Gudbranson's #1 teammate, by far, has been Ben Hutton this year. You should see Hutton's stats without Gudbranson, night and day. Almost like chemistry and line mates/pairings matter in a team sport 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JM_ Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 14 minutes ago, aGENT said: It gets more out of Guddy...at the expense of getting less out of Edler. Is that the right mix....? maybe. How much "less"? 3 or 4 5v5 minutes that Hutty and Stecher pick up? might be better for Edlers durability too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 Just now, Jimmy McGill said: maybe. How much "less"? 3 or 4 5v5 minutes that Hutty and Stecher pick up? might be better for Edlers durability too. Maybe. like I said...I dunno. My crystal ball gets fuzzy that far out When Hughes gets here it probably doesn't hurt to try for a couple games...whether they do or not is another question. It would basically give us three, half decent, 2nd pairs though. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanukfanatic Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 1 hour ago, kanucks25 said: Throw "analytics" aside. Anybody who watches the game can see Gudbranson is constantly lost in the D-zone and has an extremely difficult time making outlet passes. The "numbers" only support what we see. Really baffling why people are taking such a hard contrarian stand on this lol. Maybe because your whining gets old real quick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucker 67 Posted February 8, 2019 Share Posted February 8, 2019 ...posting here, because the other Gudbranson thread was closed. No doubt Gudbranson can drop the gloves, but he doesn't really want to. He's concerned about concussions. Travis Green also seems against Canucks players making opponents pay for hurting our young stars. This team still needs a lot of work. They aren't near ready to really compete in the playoffs. - 2 more top 6 wingers with decent size - Hughes and 1 more Dman with size - a new Special Teams coach (because the PP and PK are embarrassing) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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