The TDL Benning Complaint Thread Department

[oldnews]

3 hours ago, GreyHatnDart said:

Okay, fair points. But to suggest Gillis’ pro scouting was superior to Benning’s is laughable. Look at those players he traded picks for. Yikes. Not much long term out of any of those fellas. 

I wouldn't be that critical of pro-scouting under Gillis.

 

Signed Hamhuis.

Acquired Ehrhoff

Signed Malhotra

Acquired Higgins.

Samuelsson, Demitra...Pahlsson was actually a beast - it's was just bad timing to add him - the team wound up depleted heading into the playoffs.

I can 'forgive' him the odd Derek Roy - who also made some sense and didn't break that bank as a rare rental in the Gillis era.

 

It was the amateur scouting and development of prospects that appeared lacking in the Gillis tenure - but those were subordinate to contending, and also further hampered by picking so late while not scouting particularly well....

[Tomatoes11]

On 3/29/2019 at 1:47 AM, TheRealistOptimist said:

We're only in year 4 since we started falling back in the standings. 

After the Pens drafted Malkin, Crosby in back to back years, they finished 2nd last in the NHL the next year and got the #2nd Overall pick (J. Staal over J. Toews). 

End of the year finishes for a 4 year period - 2001-02 26th, 02-03 29th, 03-04 30th, 05-06 29th 

 

After the Hawks drafted #3 and #7 in back to back years, they finally got it right and drafted J. Toews #3 Overall in the 2006 NHL Draft, then the following year they finished 25th (6th worst), but they lucked out and won the Lottery and drafted Patrick Kane #1 in 2007. They didn't turn it around until the 2008-09 season.

End of the year finishes for a 4 year period - 2003-04 29th, 05-06 28th, 06-07 26th, 07-08 20th 

 

After LA Drafted #4, #2 and #5 in consecutive years, they had two first round playoff knockouts and then they won the Cup in 2012. 

End of year finishes for a 5 year period - 2003-04 20th, 05-06 20th, 06-07 28th, 07-08 29th, 08-09 26th

 

None of these teams turnarounds were immediate.

 

I thought I laid it out quite nicely. They weren't  2-3 year tear downs as you mentioned they could've been. You can easily do the research. 

We are in year 5 moving into year 6 next season. Why you decided to give Benning a free year when he should have started the tear down instantly is beyond me. To feed your narrative where we aren’t super behind those trajectories I guess? 

 

On 3/29/2019 at 1:47 AM, TheRealistOptimist said:

We're only in year 4 since we started falling back in the standings. 

After the Pens drafted Malkin, Crosby in back to back years, they finished 2nd last in the NHL the next year and got the #2nd Overall pick (J. Staal over J. Toews). 

End of the year finishes for a 4 year period - 2001-02 26th, 02-03 29th, 03-04 30th, 05-06 29th 

 

After the Hawks drafted #3 and #7 in back to back years, they finally got it right and drafted J. Toews #3 Overall in the 2006 NHL Draft, then the following year they finished 25th (6th worst), but they lucked out and won the Lottery and drafted Patrick Kane #1 in 2007. They didn't turn it around until the 2008-09 season.

End of the year finishes for a 4 year period - 2003-04 29th, 05-06 28th, 06-07 26th, 07-08 20th 

 

After LA Drafted #4, #2 and #5 in consecutive years, they had two first round playoff knockouts and then they won the Cup in 2012. 

End of year finishes for a 5 year period - 2003-04 20th, 05-06 20th, 06-07 28th, 07-08 29th, 08-09 26th

 

None of these teams turnarounds were immediate.

 

I thought I laid it out quite nicely. They weren't  2-3 year tear downs as you mentioned they could've been. You can easily do the research. 

 

[Tomatoes11]

On 3/29/2019 at 3:56 AM, IBatch said:

It’s pretty common knowledge that a complete tear down wasn’t going to happen until the Sedins retired no matter what.  I’d say the roster turnover reached a tear down of what was possible when Burrows and Hansen and Bieksa were sent packing.   The first two years didn’t work, and WD comeback year didn’t help things much (7th overall record) gave false hope the re-tool was working.

 

It is what it is, another high pick this year, and maybe the following one too and then we should start finding out what this young group of players is capable of.  Five years from now EP will only be 25.  Hughes 24.  Horvat 28.  It could take that long to get the best out of their primes, but I’d say with what’s coming behind them added plus at least three or four support players from the draft this team had a decent at worst chance of doing some damage.  Doesn’t mean we won’t make the playoffs before then (I’m thinking maybe next year, likely the following one), it just gives you an idea on how young our team is now, and how young it’s going to be for a long time.  Maybe Benning is still running the club, maybe he isn’t but whomever takes over better be smart enough to keep the core together because it will be one of the best and youngest ones around.

I don’t see why a complete tear down shouldn’t have been started right away. You can pay your dues to the Sedins and still tear down. We obviously weren’t going to win with them after 2011 so competing for them is just a big farce anyways. Could have done the farce with a team of rookies.

[IBatch]

4 hours ago, Tomatoes11 said:

I don’t see why a complete tear down shouldn’t have been started right away. You can pay your dues to the Sedins and still tear down. We obviously weren’t going to win with them after 2011 so competing for them is just a big farce anyways. Could have done the farce with a team of rookies.

Sure that sounds easy and good now.  Just don’t sign them and let the team tank right?  Or are you in the club that figured out the math like that guy on Brilliant Mind, of how a  GM could keep his job by not re-signing them OR even better who had the cap space for both of them and how to get them to waive their full NMCs.  Or how a GM could keep his job at all by suggesting a rebuild (bye bye Gillis).   The team was pretty bad regardless except for one year with WD...So what if it took an extra two years to get where it needed to be, in the big picture it’s only two years of suffering and we are used to that ... right?

[Kevin Biestra]

4 hours ago, Tomatoes11 said:

I don’t see why a complete tear down shouldn’t have been started right away. You can pay your dues to the Sedins and still tear down. We obviously weren’t going to win with them after 2011 so competing for them is just a big farce anyways. Could have done the farce with a team of rookies.

 

I don't think it's rational to win the Presidents' Trophy in 2012 and simultaneously say it's obvious we weren't going to win as a team.

 

And having won the league title in back to back seasons in 2011 and 2012, I don't think it's rational to think we "obviously weren't going to win" going into the 2012-2013 season.

[Rob_Zepp]

On 2/25/2019 at 5:19 PM, Warhippy said:

Please feel free to seat yourself in the waiting room provided in the link below for all your ZOMG BENNING related complaints.

 

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/forums/vancouver-canucks.36/

 

Honestly...wtf did you want him to do?  Tanev injured.  Edler wouldn't waive.  We don't yet have the depth to facilitate the trades or returns people seem to expect to happen.  benning has been rebuilding for just over 3 years.  Since he took over he took one of the oldest teams against the cap full of NMC and NTC's and literally zero prospect or roster depth.

 

His first year he traded across for NHL ready youth

His second year he traded across for NHL depth, kept a few

His third year he kept it

His fourth year he kept it

 

Now literally just now we're starting to see the depth of prospects enter the AHL, Still have prospects in Europe and the NCAA and have arguably two of the best young players under the age of 22 on our roster.  We were not supposed to be nearly as good as we are, we weren't supposed to challenge.  People hated Gudbranson when he brought him here, now they hate that he was traded.  people seem to think Benning lost on the DelZaster trade somehow and more.

 

You people literally cannot be pleased or take the time to see what is currently being built.

 

So please have a seat in the provided waiting room and lodge all your complaints there with the rest of the crowd.

 

Thank You

Management.

 

Just reading this for first time and this may be about the most balanced post made about the Vancouver Canucks on any medium this calendar year.   

 

The problem, however, in your "people are not happy" is because you likely get your perspective of that from a handful of trolls on CDC who are relentless.   HF board has same idiots under different names but they are even more ridiculous in what they say.   Talk to hockey people - people who know the NHL and professional game in general about where the Vancouver Canucks are in (irrespective of what you call it) their "rebuild" (years since being in playoffs) and they are waaaaay ahead of most teams in many, many ways.   Even the oft-noted Leafs took far more years to sniff playoffs once in the hinterlands, Oilers is a model for how to take two of the games best young players (and one who is arguably the best at any age) and stilll be dreadful, and the list goes on.   Chicago before its run.   Tampa before its.    On and on.

 

Canucks will improve in the standings this year by a handful of points but this season was never about points.    It was about growth of a new core - a core that appears to be a piece or two shy.   However, many people seem to forget about some of the pieces that are already there.   The game this morning against Dallas, watching MH should have reminded people that he and OJ were neck-and-neck playing similar games in Finland last year.    Demko - the Hughes inauguration overshadowed what was an outstanding NHL performance by a guy two years ahead of most NHL goalies in terms of arrival schedule.   Stetcher - quietly putting together a monster statistical season for defensive play that makes the eventual loss of Tanev easier to now see as not being that harmful.   Boeser - went from a pure sniper to now one of the better two-way players on the team.   Horvat - what a monster season and look at his wingers this year and say he couldn't have had five more goals and ten more assists with, say, Pearson the whole year (Pearson is looking like he could be a steal) or even better, Baer who people seemingly always forget was a stud prospect who simply didn't fit the Calgary system but on a per game still puts up top six production year in/out.   Even the much maligned Virtanen - he moves forward as much this coming summer as he did last and he will be in a small group of forwards in the NHL capable of 20 goals and intimidating and that is without making mention of his top-end speed which may be in 1% of the league.    Give EP 40 a summer to digest what just happened and allow his body to become more of an adult.   Allow Gaudette to take his great edge game and add some finish.   On and on.   

 

I talk to an awful lot of people who follow hockey in general and have no vested emotion or otherwise in the Vancouver Canucks.   Far and away the consensus is this is a team on the rise that will challenge for playoffs next season, will finally have more depth to address injuries and has a very respected management/coaching staff at both NHL/AHL levels that has made it a clear destination for players wanting to improve, prolong and be part of a "team first" culture - others can find the door.

[Tomatoes11]

2 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

I don't think it's rational to win the Presidents' Trophy in 2012 and simultaneously say it's obvious we weren't going to win as a team.

 

And having won the league title in back to back seasons in 2011 and 2012, I don't think it's rational to think we "obviously weren't going to win" going into the 2012-2013 season.

We definitely did not look like the same team with Ehrhoff and Torres bailing because they felt the Canucks always get shafted. That and the goalie controversy being at its height. Sure they maybe, sort of, had an outside shot sort of. But it was really like Calgary and Toronto ‘s chances this year. Not very high.

 

Calgary actually losing the season series to us is more of a red flag than their goaltending. St. Louis actually fired their coach when they got owned by us and look at them now. Lol

 

Toronto is probably losing to Boston in the first round.

 

So you are right. Maybe I wasn’t rational with that comment statistically but we definitely weren’t the favourites anymore after 2011. We lost a lot of pieces and a lot of mojo. We looked a lot weaker and you could sense it.

 

 

[189lb enforcers?]

6 hours ago, Tomatoes11 said:

We are in year 5 moving into year 6 next season. Why you decided to give Benning a free year when he should have started the tear down instantly is beyond me. To feed your narrative where we aren’t super behind those trajectories I guess? 

 

 

I’m generally with you in this thread, but we have to assume JB had his marching orders from Aquaman and that meant delaying the rebuild process.

 

I don’t think we can expect JB to have started a serious rebuild when the owners gave him their vision to execute.

 

This leaves the politician aspects of the Linden-Benning era to sort through, the statements where those two were telling fans how they expected a quick turn-around, for instance. There was certainly a lot of things to pick from regarding the management’s plan and process back then, including the allergic-like reaction to the R word. 

 

The hockey word mocked this market for the lack of rebuild efforts when the new regiem was hired here and rightfully so. It seemed like everybody except the Canucks knew what was needed for their ‘stale core’.

 

If we assume that JB’s boss wouldn’t let him seriously rebuild from the start, it does explain or excuse a lot of the counterintuitive strategic planning which saw the supernova and end of the Sedin era. 

 

JB and Linden were paid to do what Aquaman told them to. Apparently, Aquaman has finally handed the reigns over to management, but not after exhausting a successful PR campaign which whored Linden’s legacy out like a human-shield against the Canucks fans’ criticisms. 

 

Linden must have been hard up for cash back then, and JB so desperate for a GM gig that he’d take such a role under a hands-on owner who apparently refused to rebuild. 

 

What a bizarre ride its been as a Canucks fan this past decade. 

[IBatch]

1 hour ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Just reading this for first time and this may be about the most balanced post made about the Vancouver Canucks on any medium this calendar year.   

 

The problem, however, in your "people are not happy" is because you likely get your perspective of that from a handful of trolls on CDC who are relentless.   HF board has same idiots under different names but they are even more ridiculous in what they say.   Talk to hockey people - people who know the NHL and professional game in general about where the Vancouver Canucks are in (irrespective of what you call it) their "rebuild" (years since being in playoffs) and they are waaaaay ahead of most teams in many, many ways.   Even the oft-noted Leafs took far more years to sniff playoffs once in the hinterlands, Oilers is a model for how to take two of the games best young players (and one who is arguably the best at any age) and stilll be dreadful, and the list goes on.   Chicago before its run.   Tampa before its.    On and on.

 

Canucks will improve in the standings this year by a handful of points but this season was never about points.    It was about growth of a new core - a core that appears to be a piece or two shy.   However, many people seem to forget about some of the pieces that are already there.   The game this morning against Dallas, watching MH should have reminded people that he and OJ were neck-and-neck playing similar games in Finland last year.    Demko - the Hughes inauguration overshadowed what was an outstanding NHL performance by a guy two years ahead of most NHL goalies in terms of arrival schedule.   Stetcher - quietly putting together a monster statistical season for defensive play that makes the eventual loss of Tanev easier to now see as not being that harmful.   Boeser - went from a pure sniper to now one of the better two-way players on the team.   Horvat - what a monster season and look at his wingers this year and say he couldn't have had five more goals and ten more assists with, say, Pearson the whole year (Pearson is looking like he could be a steal) or even better, Baer who people seemingly always forget was a stud prospect who simply didn't fit the Calgary system but on a per game still puts up top six production year in/out.   Even the much maligned Virtanen - he moves forward as much this coming summer as he did last and he will be in a small group of forwards in the NHL capable of 20 goals and intimidating and that is without making mention of his top-end speed which may be in 1% of the league.    Give EP 40 a summer to digest what just happened and allow his body to become more of an adult.   Allow Gaudette to take his great edge game and add some finish.   On and on.   

 

I talk to an awful lot of people who follow hockey in general and have no vested emotion or otherwise in the Vancouver Canucks.   Far and away the consensus is this is a team on the rise that will challenge for playoffs next season, will finally have more depth to address injuries and has a very respected management/coaching staff at both NHL/AHL levels that has made it a clear destination for players wanting to improve, prolong and be part of a "team first" culture - others can find the door.

Good read Zepp, don’t always see eye to eye but that’s ok, on this one can’t disagree or complain or grumble or anything.   It’s nice to see informed views (ones that are more than just about Canuck fandom, but hockey fans in general that keep up with the rest of the league and seek out information that’s relevant from non-biased sources).

 

Agreed we are ahead of schedule on the rebuild.  If Hughes also gets Calder finalist consideration or win it I’d be hard pressed to find other teams that also managed this feet (three years in a row).

 

Next year will undoubtedly be another slow-medium climb up the standings, a playoff spot is neither a foregone conclusion or out of the picture.   Bear is a top six player when healthy, and will help Horvat or EPs production.  Pearson AND Schenn are starting to look like adroit moves (I like that word) or just good ones.  Who would have thought those two would be better than Gudbranson and MDZ...on our team at least so far they definitely are.  Toughness might have actually gone up, Schenn is playing a heavier game than Guddy did and like he’s fighting for his hockey life (sign him already!!).  Third star last night ...

 

Im not happy we’ve moved from 7th to 9th overnight and could end up 10th...but I am very proud of the team nonetheless.  This looks to be the last year we will pick in the top ten for sometime (unless the lottery is in our favour).  With LA sunk (a year before I figured they would) ANA in lah-lah land and incapable of really sucking because Gibson, Rakell (now that he’s back) and even Getzlaf won’t let them, ARI on the rise finally and EDM also in limbo with no troups left to really make a difference (Bouchard will but he’s at least a year out before making a significant impact) and even SJ getting back on track with their aging core (and the cliff that’s approaching) recently with their terrible losing skid without EK in the lineup (SJ IS going to sink without extra help, and even with it in a couple years) our division is ripe for the picking and even our conference to a certain degree (MIN and CHI hanging on tooth and nail).

 

A lot of movement will occur in our division over the next couple years.  ANA is only a few years off being a contender, have some young players but not enough to stop their demise.  Calgary looks to be our biggest threat, maybe Vegas too.  When Seattle comes they could duplicate what Vegas did given the juicy team and picks the accumulated, but all the GMs have wised up a bit and won’t be as quick to give away their futures just to protect one young player.  

 

Personally i I think the Canucks won’t take as long as CAR, ARI, BUF, EDM etc took or are stilling taking to get back to a  perennial playoff team.  The rebuild started two years late, but Benning still was thoughtful and mindful of the future and fixed our prospect pool.   As a result we have the third best group of 21 and unders currently in the NHL, and have seven-twelve year to work with that group ( before they become a SJ or LA or CHI or PIT or WSH, an older team still relying on stars they drafted a decade plus ago).  

 

Benning has punched above his draft position, averaging 7th overall the last four years but ranked 3rd, or plus four (like drafting 3rd overall each year and picking the 3rd best player in the draft each time).   For example the last two drafts he picked EP at five and Hughes at 7, one year later they were considered the second best players in the world not in the NHL.  Of course OJ and JV hurt that position, but relative to his peers (other GMS), he’s in the top ten (9th) for his drafting relative to his position.  EDM is dead last, because they can’t get anything past the first round.  TB is first, averaging 24th but drafting like they pick 8th each year.

 

The results are obvious and will start to trickle in at an accelerated rate now.  Hughes, OJ, and possibly Woo or McEwen or Madden or something else out of the woodwork, two or three players over the next couple years.  That’s a core baking in the oven and ready to go.

[189lb enforcers?]

The Leafs are/were also ‘ahead of schedule on their rebuild’ at one point and now look at them. 

 

The Canucks have an outside shot of rising away from the top of the draft too quickly as well and becoming that of which they relentlessly mock on here. 

 

Be careful what we ask for maybe?

Damn if you do, damned if you don’t, I guess. 

[TheRealistOptimist]

8 hours ago, Tomatoes11 said:

We are in year 5 moving into year 6 next season. Why you decided to give Benning a free year when he should have started the tear down instantly is beyond me. To feed your narrative where we aren’t super behind those trajectories I guess? 

2015 - we drafted #23 overall after making the playoffs

 

2016 - we drafted #5, 2017 - we drafted #5 and 2018 - we drafted #7

 

2018-19 is year #4 of us finishing low in the standings since JB took over.

 

I don’t know how this is that hard to comprehend? But you seem to be struggling.

 

2014-15 - Playoffs (8th)

Now count it with me...

1) 2015-16 - 28th

2) 2016-17 - 29th

3) 2017-18 - 26th

4) 2018-19 - 23rd (currently)

 

I clearly stated we were in year 4 of falling back in the standings. I DIDN’T say JB was in year 4 of the job.

 

Ps. If it was up to me, I would’ve started a complete rebuild/tear down earlier too regardless of the fact that the Sedin’s were still playing.

[IBatch]

2 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

I’m generally with you in this thread, but we have to assume JB had his marching orders from Aquaman and that meant delaying the rebuild process.

 

I don’t think we can expect JB to have started a serious rebuild when the owners gave him their vision to execute.

 

This leaves the politician aspects of the Linden-Benning era to sort through, the statements where those two were telling fans how they expected a quick turn-around, for instance. There was certainly a lot of things to pick from regarding the management’s plan and process back then, including the allergic-like reaction to the R word. 

 

The hockey word mocked this market for the lack of rebuild efforts when the new regiem was hired here and rightfully so. It seemed like everybody except the Canucks knew what was needed for their ‘stale core’.

 

If we assume that JB’s boss wouldn’t let him seriously rebuild from the start, it does explain or excuse a lot of the counterintuitive strategic planning which saw the supernova and end of the Sedin era. 

 

JB and Linden were paid to do what Aquaman told them to. Apparently, Aquaman has finally handed the reigns over to management, but not after exhausting a successful PR campaign which whored Linden’s legacy out like a human-shield against the Canucks fans’ criticisms. 

 

Linden must have been hard up for cash back then, and JB so desperate for a GM gig that he’d take such a role under a hands-on owner who apparently refused to rebuild. 

 

What a bizarre ride its been as a Canucks fan this past decade. 

This is a great post 189lbs.  I also think that they used Lindens good name as a shield or a way to placate us fans.  The most iconic Canuck in history makes it difficult to form criticisms of that bizarre as you stated part of the recent past.   I’m glad we don’t have to watch him field questions from the media anymore, or watch him during the draft lottery and that crest fallen brave face he put up.  I swear he looked gaunt by the time it was all said and done.  

 

Hopefully he makes another appearance as part of the organization when things are rosy again.  Also look forward to an honest forth coming discussion of why he left, and what it was he was actually proposing, there was obviously a rift in views and his was not the one the organization choose to run with.

[189lb enforcers?]

2 minutes ago, IBatch said:

This is a great post 189lbs.  I also think that they used Lindens good name as a shield or a way to placate us fans.  The most iconic Canuck in history makes it difficult to form criticisms of that bizarre as you stated part of the recent past.   I’m glad we don’t have to watch him field questions from the media anymore, or watch him during the draft lottery and that crest fallen brave face he put up.  I swear he looked gaunt by the time it was all said and done.  

 

Hopefully he makes another appearance as part of the organization when things are rosy again.  Also look forward to an honest forth coming discussion of why he left, and what it was he was actually proposing, there was obviously a rift in views and his was not the one the organization choose to run with.

Another quality Ibatch post. 

[ForsbergTheGreat]

3 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Just reading this for first time and this may be about the most balanced post made about the Vancouver Canucks on any medium this calendar year.   

 

The problem, however, in your "people are not happy" is because you likely get your perspective of that from a handful of trolls on CDC who are relentless.   HF board has same idiots under different names but they are even more ridiculous in what they say.   Talk to hockey people - people who know the NHL and professional game in general about where the Vancouver Canucks are in (irrespective of what you call it) their "rebuild" (years since being in playoffs) and they are waaaaay ahead of most teams in many, many ways.   Even the oft-noted Leafs took far more years to sniff playoffs once in the hinterlands, Oilers is a model for how to take two of the games best young players (and one who is arguably the best at any age) and stilll be dreadful, and the list goes on.   Chicago before its run.   Tampa before its.    On and on.

 

Thats funny because i talk to people currently involved in the nhl and the general sentiment around the Canucks rebuild is that the direction of the team the first couple of years was to avoid the roller coaster affect, where we’d go from being a consistent contender to consistently bottoming out. The belief was Canucks could maintain the playoff pace and at the same time quickly build up a prospect pool to smoothly transition over the core. 

 

The decisions made in the early years supported this, from trading picks and players away for closure to nhl youth, to signing free agents to support the twins, To bringing in players to protect the prospects we would be trying to rush. The moves made were all about speeding things up, rather than having patience's and waiting for your draft picks to develop. 

 

Moves to speed up the prospect pool:

Pedan for a 3rd

Vey for a 2nd

Baertchi for a 2nd

larsen for a 5th

Etem for a 6th

granlund for shinkaruk

Clendening for forsling

 

Moves to protect pool:

Dorsett for a 3rd

prust for a 5th Kassian 

Gudbranson for 2nd, 4th & McCann. 

 

Free agents to support twins to make a push:

miller, vanek, vbrata, eriksson, 

 

This was a typical shortcut theory. The same theory that Toronto put them selfs through at the beginning of their rebuild. Trading picks away for younger NHL talent in order to make them more competitive sooner. Versteeg, kessel, dion, bolland, Holland cost the leafs 3x 1st round picks, 2x 2nd, 2x 3rds, 3x 4th. Now that’s a lot of assets to move out between 2010-2013.

 

Now canucks tried the same method that has failed other teams so many times. Who knows it could have worked ....it started off right with Canucks heading right back into the post season. While also being able to get Boeser and gaudette in the draft.  Miller and vbrata fit right in, and sedin bounced back. The problem that Canucks didn’t expect was for the twins rapidly hit there decline over the next few years. We also didn’t expect our youth (virtanen, McCann, vey, Sven) to stall and slow development or not pan out at all, add in injuries and it was an unplanned disaster. But instead of us hearing the fat lady, we stuck with it a few more years before we really accepted fate. Once we hit that wall again, We fired our head coach and the focus began to shift. This was a back to the drawing board moment similarly to what the leafs did when shanahan came in. 

 

Since that time Canucks have added a lot more prospects into our system. All 4 our 100 picks in the 2017 draft are either in the ahl or have played in the NHL. Add in Quinn Hughes who is looking awesome in the nhl and we’re seeing the “majority” of our future promise is also stemming from when we went back to the drawing board (hopefully we can add more promise this June). But it will always make people wonder how much farther along this team would be had we not tried the shortcut route, just as leafs fans had also wondered.It’s not funny that FA’s message this summer was all about clarifying that there is no shortcuts in a rebuild. 

 

 

[oldnews]

2 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

The Leafs are/were also ‘ahead of schedule on their rebuild’ at one point and now look at them.

 This is a bit confusing as a set of claims.

 

First - the myth of the Leafs 'rebuild' began with the tank/accumlate-all-the-picks "Shanaplan".  Reality is that there is one drafted player on the Leafs' roster since the 'tank for picks' #proper-rebuild....and he's their 1st overall lottery pick.   Is that a "rebuild"?   Otherwise, virtually everything else pre-dated Matthews - in other words, the 'rebuild" in Toronto isn't really 'ahead of schedule' - it started well before the weak storyline of the genius of the Spamaplan.

 

Second - "now look at them"......Does that mean they're no longer destined to be a dynasty?

 

Btw - I don't think what people mock about that organization has anything to do with "rising away from the top of the draft too quickly".

 

 

 

[GreyHatnDart]

18 hours ago, Toews said:

Ok, what do you think was Gillis' strength? What exactly contributed to us finishing one win away from a Cup? Gillis' drafting was abysmal, you are seemingly objective about that but you cannot seem to give him credit for where he succeeded which was to put enough depth around the core to take us one win away from a Cup. I hope you won't be this dismissive of Benning's accomplishments four years removed from the job.

 

Look at Gillis' picks! But Benning gets a pass... for now.

Gillis looked at a lot of the psychology side of hockey... the sleep therapists and dieticians, which for our team and it’s schedule is an obvious plus. He made some very good timely moves, no doubt, but he certainly wasn’t above reproach in terms of contracts and pro scouting. In a lot of ways he was a good GM at that time, but he certainly did Benning no favours as to what he took over. 

 

Realistically, it wouldn’t be an appropriate comparison between the two GM’s until Benning’s tenure mirrors Gillis’ in terms of length. I can certainly be critical of Benning as well, I’ve acknowledged he’s made plenty of questionable moves. Benning doesn’t get himself a pass but all one needs to do is compare draft records and it’s pretty obvious who was more successful. Yes it’s easy to say Benning drafted higher = better players until you account for the second rounds and beyond, it’s not even comparable. At the end of the day they had completely different game plans and mandates for what they needed to do to both be successful and arguably they both did well in some areas and not others. 

 

I wont be dismissive, I’ll likely say the same thing 4 years down the road that I said 4 years down the road from the Burke and Nonis era. Mistakes were made but triumphs were also. Our new core is miles ahead of the Sedin one... heck Pettersson outscored them combined in his rookie year. We’re on an upward swing, and at this point Benning imo is the person we can thank for that. 

[Rob_Zepp]

1 hour ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

 

Thats funny because i talk to people currently involved in the nhl and the general sentiment around the Canucks rebuild is that the direction of the team the first couple of years was to avoid the roller coaster affect, where we’d go from being a consistent contender to consistently bottoming out. The belief was Canucks could maintain the playoff pace and at the same time quickly build up a prospect pool to smoothly transition over the core. 

 

The decisions made in the early years supported this, from trading picks and players away for closure to nhl youth, to signing free agents to support the twins, To bringing in players to protect the prospects we would be trying to rush. The moves made were all about speeding things up, rather than having patience's and waiting for your draft picks to develop. 

 

Moves to speed up the prospect pool:

Pedan for a 3rd

Vey for a 2nd

Baertchi for a 2nd

larsen for a 5th

Etem for a 6th

granlund for shinkaruk

Clendening for forsling

 

Moves to protect pool:

Dorsett for a 3rd

prust for a 5th Kassian 

Gudbranson for 2nd, 4th & McCann. 

 

Free agents to support twins to make a push:

miller, vanek, vbrata, eriksson, 

 

This was a typical shortcut theory. The same theory that Toronto put them selfs through at the beginning of their rebuild. Trading picks away for younger NHL talent in order to make them more competitive sooner. Versteeg, kessel, dion, bolland, Holland cost the leafs 3x 1st round picks, 2x 2nd, 2x 3rds, 3x 4th. Now that’s a lot of assets to move out between 2010-2013.

 

Now canucks tried the same method that has failed other teams so many times. Who knows it could have worked ....it started off right with Canucks heading right back into the post season. While also being able to get Boeser and gaudette in the draft.  Miller and vbrata fit right in, and sedin bounced back. The problem that Canucks didn’t expect was for the twins rapidly hit there decline over the next few years. We also didn’t expect our youth (virtanen, McCann, vey, Sven) to stall and slow development or not pan out at all, add in injuries and it was an unplanned disaster. But instead of us hearing the fat lady, we stuck with it a few more years before we really accepted fate. Once we hit that wall again, We fired our head coach and the focus began to shift. This was a back to the drawing board moment similarly to what the leafs did when shanahan came in. 

 

Since that time Canucks have added a lot more prospects into our system. All 4 our 100 picks in the 2017 draft are either in the ahl or have played in the NHL. Add in Quinn Hughes who is looking awesome in the nhl and we’re seeing the “majority” of our future promise is also stemming from when we went back to the drawing board (hopefully we can add more promise this June). But it will always make people wonder how much farther along this team would be had we not tried the shortcut route, just as leafs fans had also wondered.It’s not funny that FA’s message this summer was all about clarifying that there is no shortcuts in a rebuild. 

 

 

That is why I said starting the first year not making the playoffs.   I totally agree (and most in the game would too) that the Linden led "win one for the Sedins" of the first WD season was not a clear path to what has happened since.    

[Pete M]

8 hours ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Just reading this for first time and this may be about the most balanced post made about the Vancouver Canucks on any medium this calendar year.   

 

The problem, however, in your "people are not happy" is because you likely get your perspective of that from a handful of trolls on CDC who are relentless.   HF board has same idiots under different names but they are even more ridiculous in what they say.   Talk to hockey people - people who know the NHL and professional game in general about where the Vancouver Canucks are in (irrespective of what you call it) their "rebuild" (years since being in playoffs) and they are waaaaay ahead of most teams in many, many ways.   Even the oft-noted Leafs took far more years to sniff playoffs once in the hinterlands, Oilers is a model for how to take two of the games best young players (and one who is arguably the best at any age) and stilll be dreadful, and the list goes on.   Chicago before its run.   Tampa before its.    On and on.

 

Canucks will improve in the standings this year by a handful of points but this season was never about points.    It was about growth of a new core - a core that appears to be a piece or two shy.   However, many people seem to forget about some of the pieces that are already there.   The game this morning against Dallas, watching MH should have reminded people that he and OJ were neck-and-neck playing similar games in Finland last year.    Demko - the Hughes inauguration overshadowed what was an outstanding NHL performance by a guy two years ahead of most NHL goalies in terms of arrival schedule.   Stetcher - quietly putting together a monster statistical season for defensive play that makes the eventual loss of Tanev easier to now see as not being that harmful.   Boeser - went from a pure sniper to now one of the better two-way players on the team.   Horvat - what a monster season and look at his wingers this year and say he couldn't have had five more goals and ten more assists with, say, Pearson the whole year (Pearson is looking like he could be a steal) or even better, Baer who people seemingly always forget was a stud prospect who simply didn't fit the Calgary system but on a per game still puts up top six production year in/out.   Even the much maligned Virtanen - he moves forward as much this coming summer as he did last and he will be in a small group of forwards in the NHL capable of 20 goals and intimidating and that is without making mention of his top-end speed which may be in 1% of the league.    Give EP 40 a summer to digest what just happened and allow his body to become more of an adult.   Allow Gaudette to take his great edge game and add some finish.   On and on.   

 

I talk to an awful lot of people who follow hockey in general and have no vested emotion or otherwise in the Vancouver Canucks.   Far and away the consensus is this is a team on the rise that will challenge for playoffs next season, will finally have more depth to address injuries and has a very respected management/coaching staff at both NHL/AHL levels that has made it a clear destination for players wanting to improve, prolong and be part of a "team first" culture - others can find the door.

The young core is in place....just need to keep complimenting them with more core pieces, especially on "D" and be patient...they have the vets on the fourth line and a couple vets on "D", Horvat is now considered a vet...the continued development of the young core is key (they need to take it to the next level) ...they're still three years away from contending...so patience is definitely necessary and no knee jerk reactions from management or derailing the development with 30+ year old vets taking up spots from the emerging prospects..

[oldnews]

19 hours ago, chilliwiggins said:

Yes but it was him who bought a farm team for the Canucks as we were always using teams not owned by the bucks which improves developing tenfold.   Also allows for more youth to be under contract between the 2 teams which people seldom know about

yeah, and he signed Tanev as an undrafted UFA - but that doesn't really improve his drafting record - and the discussion / or at least the post people were questioning, was about pro-scouting in Gillis' tenure, which is far better than suggested.   He brought in a number of key 'foundational' and complementary players without which there probably was no run to the SCF.

[Nucker 67]

I went through all of Benning's trades since he was brought in, in 2014, I believe he's made 36 trades. There are 4 trades that are still undecided as "a winner" has yet to be determined. I reviewed 32 of this trades and I think he's actually done better than some think. IMO, his trade record is 20-5-7.

 

The 5 Trades that were losses are: (in order of happening)

 

1) 2nd (2014) for Linden Vey

2) Gustav Forsling for Adam Clendening

3) Zack Kassian and a 5th for Brandon Prust

4) Jared McCann, 2nd (2016) and a 4th (2016) for Erik Gudbranson and a 5th (2016)

5) Anders Nilsson and Darren Archibald for Mike McKenna, Tom Pyatt and a 6th (2019)

 

There are 7 trades where there is no clear winner, so those are ties.