Louie Eriksson and Jake Virtanen and Jim Benning

[oldnews]

9 minutes ago, The 5th Line said:

Green admitted that they would of preferred Gaudette in the minors. Injuries caused issues but he's still considered a rushed prospect.  McCann, Virtanen, Gaudette,. Why does it have to be in the present when you are using them as examples yourself.    

 

You were speaking in the present tense - "we rush".   You're talking about one player - who did not look out of place at all - he simply wasn't ready for a 3C role - and therefore he wasn't playing one - he was sheltered, and flanked with solid defensive wingers - was not exposed - and the only real 'harm' done was that he was playing 10 minutes a night in the NHL when he 'could have' been playing 20 in Utica.

Ironically, half the posters on these boards already pencil him into the 3C role and think Sutter should have been moved already.

I think it's pretty dishonest though, to pick one player out of a half-dozen, who was sheltered and pretend he was 'rushed' when you're also aware it was an injury contingency - and we are talking about a 22 yr old who just won the Hobey Baker - he's not a wallflower that is going to be wrecked or damaged by experiencing what it takes to play at the NHL level.

 

A further irony - not only did the team have Sutter to play that role - and used Horvat to compensate for his loss - not Gaudette - but they also went out and signed Beagle, knowing what he could bring to complement the young top 6 - and knowing that Gaudette would take time to properly grow into one of those roles - if he doesn't in fact command a top 6 primary scoring role in the end..

 

I see no issue whatsoever with Gaudette and think you're really reaching to make a point that isn't there - at least hasn't been since the McCann days, when the team got its first real taste of youth, and a fanbase starving to see prospects at the NHL level. 

[oldnews]

2 minutes ago, Horvat is a Boss said:

 

You keep cutting out parts of my posts. Why?

It was the part I intended to respond to - that is all.

 

The rest of the post - about Tavares is water under the bridge I don't care to revisit - having him play shutdown with Marner blocking shots is a recipe for not making it through the grind of the playoffs imo.

And that bits about the blueline - which we agree on - I see no point requoting.

 

I simply focused on the part I wanted to elaborate on or discuss further.

I agreed that stockpiling picks does not necessarily gain results - and to take it further, pointed out that the sped- up, teardown accerated bottleneck window thing is not self-evidently the best way to go about things - and yet, nevertheless, there is a large contingent not only on these boards, but in hockey 'journalism' who don't understand what a team is doing if they don't tear it down.  I'm pointing out counterpoints to that.

[Noble 6]

1 minute ago, oldnews said:

It was the part I intended to respond to - that is all.

 

The rest of the post - about Tavares is water under the bridge I don't care to revisit - having him play shutdown with Marner blocking shots is a recipe for not making it through the grind of the playoffs imo.

And that bits about the blueline - which we agree on - I see no point requoting.

 

I simply focused on the part I wanted to elaborate on or discuss further.

I agreed that stockpiling picks does not necessarily gain results - and to take it further, pointed out that the sped- up, teardown accerated bottleneck window thing is not self-evidently the best way to go about things - and yet, nevertheless, there is a large contingent not only on these boards, but in hockey 'journalism' who don't understand what a team is doing if they don't tear it down.  I'm pointing out counterpoints to that.

 

I told you why Tavares was playing that role and you seem to have ignored it. It's Kadri's role, but he's not playing right now. Tavares is not their shut down center. 

 

The accelerated rebuild can be the best way to go about things if you do it properly (Toronto). The long, patient rebuilds can be done successfully if you do things properly (Winnipeg). How does it make logical sense to take 10 years to do a job that could've been done in 5 a different way?

[oldnews]

2 minutes ago, The 5th Line said:

Tear it down in one year, two years , three.. it doesn't matter when, like who cares?  we have hung on to assets

again - right on the heels of your 'fact checking'.

 

if you dont' "hang on", but deal Hansen in year one, you get nothing.  Burrows - you get nothing.  etc. shoulda/coulda/woulda traded guys with NMCs, etc = meaningless stories.

 

I don't think you're getting the point about keeping things in context.    You want a simply one-liner, easy answers - things don't necessarily work that way.

[oldnews]

12 minutes ago, Horvat is a Boss said:

 

I told you why Tavares was playing that role and you seem to have ignored it. It's Kadri's role, but he's not playing right now. Tavares is not their shut down center. 

 

What you "told" me isn't something I particularly value as informational - it's an opinion I don't consider that informed, but moved on from - but apparently you want to continue to try to flog it.

 

Kadri - their "shutdown" center - got 61.5% ozone starts in the first two games - was in the Leafs top 10 throughout the regular season, and got precisely 0:00 minutes of penalty killing time through the season - 20 Leafs played more 'shutdown' on their special teams,  16 players had higher defensive zone starts than Kadri.

 

Those are some unique metrics for a "shutdown" center.

 

So, back to the drawing board - and regardless, Kadri has literally nothing to do with the disappearing Leafs 4th line when they need a shutdown presence.

 

Sorry, but I moved on from this for a reason and don't care to beat it to death any further.   The Leafs "build" is lacking in some pretty evident areas - that's my opinion - you're not going to "tell" me otherwise unless you have some information I can use to teach myself better on the matter.

 

Edited April 19, 2019 by oldnews

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, oldnews said:

again - right on the heels of your 'fact checking'.

 

if you dont' "hang on", but deal Hansen in year one, you get nothing.  Burrows - you get nothing.  etc. shoulda/coulda/woulda traded guys with NMCs, etc = meaningless stories.

 

I don't think you're getting the point about keeping things in context.    You want a simply one-liner, easy answers - things don't necessarily work that way.

I think the salary cap is making the window for winning shorter.  Like you say, it’s complicated.  A team’s top cap dollar guys need to be really productive, while being supported from very productive guys making ELC dollars, and middling guys, who don’t make too much.  Pay the wrong guys too much (or too soon) and it’s big trouble.  Then if you don’t gamble on young guys coming out of their ELCs being big produces, and pay them long term lower cap dollars (Schifele for example) your window could be closed before it opens.  

Im confusing myself, and getting a headache. 

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, oldnews said:

What you "told" me isn't something I particularly value as informational - it's an opinion I don't consider that informed, but moved on from - but apparently you want to continue to try to flog it.

 

Kadri - their "shutdown" center - got 61.5% ozone starts in the first two games - was in the Leafs top 10 throughout the regular season, and got precisely 0:00 minutes of penalty killing time through the season - 20 Leafs played more 'shutdown' on their special teams,  16 players had higher defensive zone starts than Kadri.

 

Those are some unique metrics for a "shutdown" center.

 

So, back to the drawing board - and regardless, Kadri has literally nothing to do with the disappearing Leafs 4th line when they need a shutdown presence.

 

Sorry, but I moved on from this for a reason and don't care to beat it to death any further.   The Leafs "build" is lacking in some pretty evident areas - that's my opinion - you're not going to "tell" me otherwise unless you have some information I can use to teach myself better on the matter.

 

Kadri didn’t PK?  Wow!  I’ve seen even Marner on their PK.  I just assumed Kadri would PK.  That’s a very interesting statistic ON.  Thanks for the information.  

[oldnews]

30 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Kadri didn’t PK?  Wow!  I’ve seen even Marner on their PK.  I just assumed Kadri would PK.  That’s a very interesting statistic ON.  Thanks for the information.  

https://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/TOR/2019.html

 

Edited April 19, 2019 by oldnews

[IBatch]

22 hours ago, oldnews said:

Like I said elsewhere - yeah, it does - if your 1C is taking repeat dzone draw after dzone draw in the last four minutes of games, with Marner throwing himself in front of point blasts trying to preserve a one goal lead in the first round of the playoffs.    Having one of the best top 6 in the league is precisely when you built out the rest of your depth in order to contend.  As they're doing it, they're risking their stars, taxing their stars - at the start of a playoff grind - as a result of lacking the depth role players to utilize in those situations.

We all know that Kadri acting his normal self in game one and getting ejected for the series would mean the top six would be in for it...  statiscslly Kadri lines up pretty evenly with Horvat, I’d bet if we had Tavares and Mathews as our top two centers we’d be ok too.  That’s incredible depth down the middle.  Their AHL team also stacks up ok compared to the rest of the league even without Kapanen and Johnsson... It’s a more than a bit of a stretch to say they don’t have depth in their forward lineup, but their defense is another matter entirely.  

 

Mediocre, maybe even worse.  Andersson on most nights is shellacked but they still manage to win more than lose, most would say because they can outscore the opposition and have a very good if not an elite goaltender.  Maybe they’d still play  Marner and Tavares in the later part of a close game, becuase well they are two great players, if I was Babcock I’d probably do it too.  Sure they don’t have FOUR top lines, but nodody does these days even TB (who has  two first lines and one second to work with, yet a brooming in the first round.).  TO will soon be right up against the cap and lose something as a result, perhaps they will change tactics and organize a team with two first lines and two lines that try desperately to get the puck and keep it out of their zone.  As of right now anyways, only TB has a more impressive forward group, at least on paper anyways.   Who’s our third line? And second line? And first line?  They have us beat on all three by a long shot, maybe on par with our fourth line though but does it really matter?.    

 

Fourth lines are definitely used more now, since before expansion even, so I get what your saying.  I just don’t think it matters that much given who they do have isn’t that much different than any other team.  For sure they could do better but it’s not their weak point, that is and will be defense for some time.  And soon they won’t have the best of times anyways once their cap hell  ensues, this could be their best chance at a cup for years to come.   Man I don’t like taking their side either. So screw them and their  terrible depth, but still want them to beat any US team they come across.  Would rather have to listen and read about them winning a cup than seeing it South of the border again and again and again. 

[Alflives]

9 minutes ago, oldnews said:

https://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/TOR/2019.html

 

Thanks ON.  Do PP ozone starts and PK dzone starts count in a player’s stats, or is it only 5 on 5?  These numbers are pretty cool though.  

[Noble 6]

44 minutes ago, oldnews said:

What you "told" me isn't something I particularly value as informational - it's an opinion I don't consider that informed, but moved on from - but apparently you want to continue to try to flog it.

 

Kadri - their "shutdown" center - got 61.5% ozone starts in the first two games - was in the Leafs top 10 throughout the regular season, and got precisely 0:00 minutes of penalty killing time through the season - 20 Leafs played more 'shutdown' on their special teams,  16 players had higher defensive zone starts than Kadri.

 

Those are some unique metrics for a "shutdown" center.

 

So, back to the drawing board - and regardless, Kadri has literally nothing to do with the disappearing Leafs 4th line when they need a shutdown presence.

 

Sorry, but I moved on from this for a reason and don't care to beat it to death any further.   The Leafs "build" is lacking in some pretty evident areas - that's my opinion - you're not going to "tell" me otherwise unless you have some information I can use to teach myself better on the matter.

 

 

Toronto doesn't use centers on their penalty kill. Their main guys up front are Hyman, Brown, Kapanen and Marner. There's a significant drop after that for forwards. That's also why it's not crazy to see Marner out there to defend a lead, Babcock trusts him. 

 

Kadri had 53% offensive zone starts in the regular season. The only center below him was Tavares, with 52%. If anything, that's an argument that Tavares has been the Leafs shut down center all along and this is nothing new. In reality, the Leafs don't really use one. Boston has last change in the first two games, so Babcock didn't get the matchups he wanted. 

 

Besides, having a defensively capable center in the top 6 is pretty important to winning a Cup. Every winner this decade has had one (Backstrom, Crosby, Toews, Kopitar and Bergeron). If it's working then it's fine. Most Playoff teams aren't spending a lot of money on a shutdown center in the bottom 6 anyway. 

 

[CanadianRugby]

7 hours ago, oldnews said:

Dude - in 2016 you declared the Leafs rebuild 'finished'.

You posted drivel threads expecting the Canucks rething to be 'on pace' - with a team that has been drafting top 10 since 2008.

Proclaimed the Leafs the next Blackhawks, drooling over their core while not realizing it takes a lot more than a few shiny top10s to be a dynasty.

 

You now finally have the sense to walk back your fool's game.  Kudos to you for that.

I think due to your narcissistic tendencies, this is the reality you've convinced yourself of.  

Nobody ever said things like it only takes top 10s to build a dynasty.  You know that, but you don't have it in you to ever admit you're wrong.  Either that, or you're the ultimate 'have to get the last word in' guy.  

[CanucksJay]

Welps, after watching Calgary Puck implode, I'd rather have small things Louie over James Neal. 

Watching their discussion / assassination of Neal is like deja vu. Year 1 of a lengthy contract. 

Time to grab some popcorn 

 

 

[oldnews]

On 4/19/2019 at 4:19 PM, Alflives said:

Thanks ON.  Do PP ozone starts and PK dzone starts count in a player’s stats, or is it only 5 on 5?  These numbers are pretty cool though.  

I don't think they include the special teams numbers in those 5 on 5 numbers - the pk numbers would be even more pronounced.

[oldnews]

On 4/19/2019 at 4:30 PM, Horvat is a Boss said:

 

Toronto doesn't use centers on their penalty kill. Their main guys up front are Hyman, Brown, Kapanen and Marner. There's a significant drop after that for forwards. That's also why it's not crazy to see Marner out there to defend a lead, Babcock trusts him. 

 

Kadri had 53% offensive zone starts in the regular season. The only center below him was Tavares, with 52%. If anything, that's an argument that Tavares has been the Leafs shut down center all along and this is nothing new. In reality, the Leafs don't really use one. Boston has last change in the first two games, so Babcock didn't get the matchups he wanted. 

 

Besides, having a defensively capable center in the top 6 is pretty important to winning a Cup. Every winner this decade has had one (Backstrom, Crosby, Toews, Kopitar and Bergeron). If it's working then it's fine. Most Playoff teams aren't spending a lot of money on a shutdown center in the bottom 6 anyway. 

 

That's a brilliant 'plan' when you need to win a draw....meh, who needs to win draws on a penalty kill?

 

But your claim is only really true post-deadline - to that point, Par Lindholm was their #3 pk forward  - an actual center that won more than 50% of his draws....that they dealt for a player that hasn't dressed in the playoffs....

 

Meanwhile - Tavares at 31% ozone starts in the playoffs....I imagine there's some stealth DubaSpamaplan genius behind that.

 

[Noble 6]

1 hour ago, oldnews said:

That's a brilliant 'plan' when you need to win a draw....meh, who needs to win draws on a penalty kill?

 

But your claim is only really true post-deadline - to that point, Par Lindholm was their #3 pk forward  - an actual center that won more than 50% of his draws....that they dealt for a player that hasn't dressed in the playoffs....

 

Meanwhile - Tavares at 31% ozone starts in the playoffs....I imagine there's some stealth DubaSpamaplan genius behind that.

 

 

You should be talking to Babcock and Dubas if you don't like the way they do things. 

 

Lindholm played mainly on the wing on the 4th line. Gauthier was their 4C for most of the year. So Lindholm was actually a winger winning over 50% of his draws. 

 

Tavares probably takes so many defensive zone draws because he plays with two of the most defensively responsible wingers on the team (at least according to Babcock). It's likely more important to Babcock that Hyman and Marner are out there in those situations than Tavares. If you don't like that it's fine. 

[EastVanCanuck]

Old News trolling those leaf lovers like bitches.  I LOVE IT!

[Schneider.Man604]

Whatever happened happened. Lets just leave it at that the cards fell in place that we got to pick EP40 and QH43. What if we picked better payers all those years and fell in different positions for the draft lottery. Lets look at the positives and not the negatives. As far as everything goes right now we should be happy as Canucks fans. JV18 can skate like Mason Raymond(haha) but can hit like a freight train!. I am glad we picked up he plays with passion and is a home town boy! He will turn things around and if I am not mistaken had a career year this year ( I could be wrong) GO CANUCKS GO!

Edited April 22, 2019 by Schneider.Man604

[86Viking]

On 4/15/2019 at 10:36 AM, Borvat said:

Bottom line for me is that he needed to deal with the Sedin's not being able to be moved (rightfully so I guess) and wait for them to retire. 

So we went through that once with the Twins....does he make the same mistake again by giving a retirement contract with ntc or nmc to Edler??? If he buckles and gives Edler a new deal has our GM really learned from the past?

 

We have 2 top 4 LHD going in to next year, yes Hughes is young but he will be a top 4 guy for us. Also have our high draft pick OJ who should be coming to camp ready to compete for an NHL spot or at worst be a call up during the year.

 

I hope JB does little in the UFA market, if anything short 1 or 2 yr year deals on players with no NTC so they can be flipped for assets at the TDL.

[Borvat]

OOps

Edited April 22, 2019 by Borvat
double post