LeanBeef Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 What does it matter if Toews pts were on the PP/SH? He still had 4 pts, he was not shutdown - which was my original point. 2 of Keslers pts were on the PP as well. Some people may think so, but I don't believe 1 person on a hockey team can shut down 1 other guy. It takes good defensemen (Ham/Juice were 1 of the best shut down pairings last yr), good linemates, and a goalie. Hawks 3rd line was paired against Sedins (when Q got his way). Despite a coaches best efforts to match lines, its not 100% effective. 4th lines will get stuck out against top lines etc etc. Quenville is a constant line juggling coach, all those guys were up and down the lineup. People are entitled to their opinions, but mine is, and still will be that Kesler needs to pot goals for this team to be successful long term. Every player on Nucks roster is good defensivly, or they wouldn't be playing on AVs team. People need to fulfill their roles - Keslers is to score goals. But my original post was about David Booth and his entrance to the playoffs, not Kesler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeanBeef Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Sorry op, got a bit off topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millerdraft Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 What's 'no' about? So what does plus/minus have to do with 'who' was responsible for going against Toews line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RunningWild Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Toews was on the ice for Higgins gwg, assisted by Kesler, in game #1 for starters but I can see you have forgotten how that series unfolded so I guess I have to bring stats into this to prove my point. Kesler took nearly every defensive zone faceoff versus Toews during that series: Kesler 4-of-7 in Game #1 (Henrik only took 2 DZ faceoffs vs Toews): http://www.nhl.com/s...11/FC030151.HTM Kesler 2-of-5 in game #2 (Henrik had 1 DZ FO vs Toews): http://www.nhl.com/s...11/FC030152.HTM Kesler 3-of-8 in game #3 (Hank only had 1DZ FO vs Toews): http://www.nhl.com/s...11/FC030153.HTM Kesler 3-of-7 in game #4 (Henrik had no DZ FO vs Toews): http://www.nhl.com/s...11/FC030154.HTM Toews only had 5 OZ FO in game #5, 4 came vs Kesler (2-of-4) 1 against Daniel (Henrik waived): http://www.nhl.com/s...11/FC030155.HTM Kesler was 4-of-6 in game #5 (Henrik had 1 DZ faceoff vs Toews): http://www.nhl.com/s...11/FC030156.HTM Game #7 was the only game when it was close, Kesler went 3-of-7/Henrik 2-of-5: http://www.nhl.com/s...11/FC030157.HTM At the end of the series Kesler took 44 DZ faceoffs against Toews. Henrik took 11 DZ faceoffs against Toews. So, tell me, was Hank shutting down Toews in the dangerous scoring areas of the ice or was it in fact Kesler? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millerdraft Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 I never said Hank was shutting down Toews, I also never said Kesler was shutting down Toews. What I do know is AV is (and has been for last 3 yrs) a 'zone start' coach. For eg: This yr his 4th line is often taking d-zone starts against top opponents. It doesn't mean they play the whole shift against that opponent - the often get the puck up ice then get off so AV can get his matchup. Also, If you are insinuating Keslers +4 is a direct result of Toews -4, not true. 2 of Kes pts were on the PP. As I already said above, you may believe it - that's fine, but I don't believe it's possible for 1 person to shutdown 1 other person. It takes good defensemen (Juice/Ham were 1 of the best shut down pairings last yr), good linemates and a goalie. Also, my original post was about David Booth going into the playoffs, not about Kesler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RunningWild Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Look, the point about 5-man units is not new (in fact goalies need to be considered as well) but Kesler was starting far more often in his own end versus Toews (thanks to Manny's most unfortunate and freakish accident) which means he's expending much more energy defensively than any other forward on the team and leaving less energy to expend on offense. Having a +4 in a 7-game series against a guy who put up 12pts in 7gp vs your team the year before is remarkable especially when your line is directly responsible for at least +2 of that (Toews was on the ice for Burrows gwg when Kesler was in a more conservative defensive position to cut off Toews room in the NZ). Bottom line is that Toews was on the ice for more goals scored by Kesler's wingers (be it Higgins or Burrows) than Kesler was on the ice for goals by Toews' wingers and technically I could go through shift charts to prove Kesler was being used to go head to head with Toews but it's rather tedious so I'll give you the links to prove me wrong (since I've already put more facts into this than you have put conceptions). The centre's defensive job is far heavier than the wingers and the centre starting in his own end 61.1% (74 to 47) of the time (excluding neutral zone faceoffs for obvious reasons) has a far heavier fatigue factor than the centre with the cushy OZ starts. It's tough to produce offence when you're shadowing Toews stride for stride (the opposite applied to Toews on Kesler as well). They essentially took each other out of the equation and given Toews' far superior offensive skillset, that's a good trade off for us. The problem was that Bolland entered the equation & nullified the Sedins in the same manner, nay - he began outscoring them, and that started to turn the series on its' head. It was far more egregious that a 3rd line centre with a career high of 19g 47pts was outscoring two Art Ross winners than it was Kesler riding Toews to a saw off. Edit: Gimme a second to gve you the links... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davinci Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 I like Raymond for the playoffs. I think his speed can really help us out in the post season. Either than that though, he's garbage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davinci Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 What does it matter if Toews pts were on the PP/SH? He still had 4 pts, he was not shutdown - which was my original point. 2 of Keslers pts were on the PP as well. Some people may think so, but I don't believe 1 person on a hockey team can shut down 1 other guy. It takes good defensemen (Ham/Juice were 1 of the best shut down pairings last yr), good linemates, and a goalie. Hawks 3rd line was paired against Sedins (when Q got his way). Despite a coaches best efforts to match lines, its not 100% effective. 4th lines will get stuck out against top lines etc etc. Quenville is a constant line juggling coach, all those guys were up and down the lineup. People are entitled to their opinions, but mine is, and still will be that Kesler needs to pot goals for this team to be successful long term. Every player on Nucks roster is good defensivly, or they wouldn't be playing on AVs team. People need to fulfill their roles - Keslers is to score goals. But my original post was about David Booth and his entrance to the playoffs, not Kesler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RunningWild Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Toews with 4 points in 7 games is considered shut down no?? That guy has the potential to dominate teams every night and if he didn't score during 5-5 I'd say well done Kesler and the Canucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pride Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Millerdraft laying down the law Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DownUndaCanuck Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 He is the type of player that scores big playoff goals - a fast, gritty, big hitting top-6 forward with plenty of skill. The way he scores is even more impressive - gritty goals in front of the net or sweet dekes off breakaways, he is skilled and tough enough to do it all and won't get physically grinded down like the Sedins or Raymond because he's the one out there initiating with big hits on defencemen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uber_pwnzor Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 The AMEX line is going to slaughter in the playoffs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangerines Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Look, the point about 5-man units is not new (in fact goalies need to be considered as well) but Kesler was starting far more often in his own end versus Toews (thanks to Manny's most unfortunate and freakish accident) which means he's expending much more energy defensively than any other forward on the team and leaving less energy to expend on offense. Having a +4 in a 7-game series against a guy who put up 12pts in 7gp vs your team the year before is remarkable especially when your line is directly responsible for at least +2 of that (Toews was on the ice for Burrows gwg when Kesler was in a more conservative defensive position to cut off Toews room in the NZ). Bottom line is that Toews was on the ice for more goals scored by Kesler's wingers (be it Higgins or Burrows) than Kesler was on the ice for goals by Toews' wingers and technically I could go through shift charts to prove Kesler was being used to go head to head with Toews but it's rather tedious so I'll give you the links to prove me wrong (since I've already put more facts into this than you have put conceptions). The centre's defensive job is far heavier than the wingers and the centre starting in his own end 61.1% (74 to 47) of the time (excluding neutral zone faceoffs for obvious reasons) has a far heavier fatigue factor than the centre with the cushy OZ starts. It's tough to produce offence when you're shadowing Toews stride for stride (the opposite applied to Toews on Kesler as well). They essentially took each other out of the equation and given Toews' far superior offensive skillset, that's a good trade off for us. The problem was that Bolland entered the equation & nullified the Sedins in the same manner, nay - he began outscoring them, and that started to turn the series on its' head. It was far more egregious that a 3rd line centre with a career high of 19g 47pts was outscoring two Art Ross winners than it was Kesler riding Toews to a saw off. Edit: Gimme a second to gve you the links... Game #1 Canucks shift charts: http://www.nhl.com/s...11/TH030151.HTM Game #1 Hawks shift charts: http://www.nhl.com/s...11/TV030151.HTM Game #2 Canucks: http://www.nhl.com/s...11/TH030152.HTM Game #2 Hawks: http://www.nhl.com/s...11/TV030152.HTM #3 Canucks: http://www.nhl.com/s...11/TV030153.HTM #3 Hawks: http://www.nhl.com/s...11/TH030153.HTM #4 Nucks: http://www.nhl.com/s...11/TV030154.HTM #4 Hawks: http://www.nhl.com/s...11/TH030154.HTM #5 Nucks: http://www.nhl.com/s...11/TH030155.HTM #5 Hawks: http://www.nhl.com/s...11/TV030155.HTM #6 Nucks: http://www.nhl.com/s...11/TV030156.HTM #6 Hawks: http://www.nhl.com/s...11/TH030156.HTM #7 Nucks: http://www.nhl.com/s...11/TH030157.HTM #7 Hawks: http://www.nhl.com/s...11/TV030157.HTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodee Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 I hope David Booth will be one of our many playoff heroes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodee Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 He is the type of player that scores big playoff goals - a fast, gritty, big hitting top-6 forward with plenty of skill. The way he scores is even more impressive - gritty goals in front of the net or sweet dekes off breakaways, he is skilled and tough enough to do it all and won't get physically grinded down like the Sedins or Raymond because he's the one out there initiating with big hits on defencemen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuck nit Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Granted,Booth has potential upside but the 'spare parts' Gillis traded to get Booth is doing fine in Florida and I sure miss the 30 goals 'spare parts' potted for us two years ago. 106 points in 155 GP as a Canuck. Leading scorer in the NHL playoffs for the CANUCKS but two seasons ago: http://canucks.nhl.c...season=20092010 Love Booth but 'spare parts' also went to the net and had no fear and was this fan's favourite Canuck. 'Spare parts' is a Canucks 'playoff hero'. Booth is an unknown playoff quantity.I wish him well.We will need him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
70seven Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 I think Booth is going to be a solid Canuck for years. Im not expecting more than a 40-60 point output in any given season, but love the fact that he makes the opponents feel the body check, and adds some solid north south speed with net drive. He needs to have a better playmaker than Kesler and Raymond to become more productive IMO. Maybe Schroeder on the wing next year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bodee Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 I think Booth is going to be a solid Canuck for years. Im not expecting more than a 40-60 point output in any given season, but love the fact that he makes the opponents feel the body check, and adds some solid north south speed with net drive. He needs to have a better playmaker than Kesler and Raymond to become more productive IMO. Maybe Schroeder on the wing next year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yeria Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Again, my original post was about Booth. You have your ideas about Kesler, and I have mine. That's fine, but there is no way to prove or disprove what either of us is saying, it's a matter of belief. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TimberWolf Posted April 3, 2012 Share Posted April 3, 2012 Generally speaking, those people would be right. Kesler had 1 great series in the playoffs last year, we all know which one. He was not great in the others. He didn't have increased PPG in the playoffs, he had only 2 goals (1 of them a PP goal) outside the Nashville series, his only 2 game winning goals came in the NSH series. I know he was injured, but he was brutal in the most important series in franchise history. Unlike Booth, Kesler had previous playoff experience and had chemistry with line mates (hence his career yr in the reg season). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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