Everybody Loves Raymond (except Jim)...Merged

[EmployeeoftheMonth]

lol no you're wrong.

[oldnews]

Raymond really shoulders far too much criticism considering he has been a guy who has always earned less than the league average while producing an average of 39 points/82 games in the NHL - average second line production, while not necessarily getting second line minutes.

Raymond's primarily problem in my opinion has nothing to do with being "soft" or falling a lot (the season after returning from a broken back - this year he was much stronger on his skates, and that joke died an appropriate death as it scarcely occured).

His primary problem here is one of fit. First, he's a left wing on a team rich at that position. The result - both he and Burrows, two versatile players, have wound up playing primarily right wing. Second problem of fit - the challenge of fitting well with Kesler. The two had great chemistry four years ago - since then, not so much.

He's struggled relative to that 25 goal season - but he has still average 17 goals/82 games since. Not that bad, particularly for a guy whose speed and backcheck gave his some quite impressive underlying numbers up to that point where he broke his back. Since then, average/break even underlying numbers, but for a slightly 2+ million cap hit - still a good contract.

Raymond's faults have been the most repeated thing on CDC the past few years - his strengths - not so much.

Raymond has the rare ability on this team to carry the puck with speed and back defenders off - he's quite adept at pulling up near the opposition's faceoff circles and finding the trailer for some consistent, quality scoring chances. Good passer who defers a lot to the point men.

This season, I thought he looked best when he was playing with Hansen and centered by Schroeder on the third line. That line's speed, puck pursuit and two way game was pretty effective when they played together. He fit well there - but many folks would prefer a bigger, more punishing third line as opposed to that type of speed and skill line.

I think he's a good hockey player who at his worst has some good upside (17 goals/82 games is pretty good for a struggling/recovering guy). I like Raymond and am not counting the days until his departure. There is the difficulty of a good fit when the rest of the lineup isn't particularly large and physical, but for the price, he's been a very good homegrown player.

Wherever he winds up, I hope he is successful.

[Bite me Burr]

Are you seriously saying I sit on the fence

[EmployeeoftheMonth]

Mediation and arbitration are totally different. Mediators just make suggestions.

[Bodee]

Where's this quote I "wanted" Raymond on our second line? Where did I say we would have got out of the first round with more Raymonds? All I've maintained is his production in 09/10 and 10/11 qualifies him as a second line player. I can even make an argument his production this year qualifies him as a 2nd line player. I don't recall ever saying he'd be my first choice for a second line I put together. Although I'd be more inclined to use him there than Higgins if that was the given choice.

You see I'm not crying at all. You seem to be the one making the whiny, childish posts full of gross exaggerations. There really are English classes you can take to improve your comprehension. Then maybe you'll understand the points I make. You may even manage to get at least one thing I say right in the process. That would be a nice change.

Argue this:

There's 60 LW positions in the entire leagues top six. If you consider the 30 most productive the to be the top line left wingers it stands to reason that the guys from 31st to 60th would be the second line players. This would make 45th/46th place the average production for second line left wingers. Following so far? Well Raymond finished tied at 34th in production among the leagues left wingers. Which qualifies him as what? An actual second line winger perhaps. I'm still not saying I want him re-signed. I want an upgrade to the second line. I could give a rats tush whether it's Raymond or Booth that leaves to accommodate the upgrade as long as a bonafide upgrade happens. Btw, Higgins points came in at 54th. Which is why Raymond will get far more than the league minimum and a two way contract you suggest.

[CanucksJay]

Where's this quote I "wanted" Raymond on our second line? Where did I say we would have got out of the first round with more Raymonds? All I've maintained is his production in 09/10 and 10/11 qualifies him as a second line player. I can even make an argument his production this year qualifies him as a 2nd line player. I don't recall ever saying he'd be my first choice for a second line I put together. Although I'd be more inclined to use him there than Higgins if that was the given choice.

You see I'm not crying at all. You seem to be the one making the whiny, childish posts full of gross exaggerations. There really are English classes you can take to improve your comprehension. Then maybe you'll understand the points I make. You may even manage to get at least one thing I say right in the process. That would be a nice change.

Argue this:

There's 60 LW positions in the entire leagues top six. If you consider the 30 most productive the to be the top line left wingers it stands to reason that the guys from 31st to 60th would be the second line players. This would make 45th/46th place the average production for second line left wingers. Following so far? Well Raymond finished tied at 34th in production among the leagues left wingers. Which qualifies him as what? An actual second line winger perhaps. I'm still not saying I want him re-signed. I want an upgrade to the second line. I could give a rats tush whether it's Raymond or Booth that leaves to accommodate the upgrade as long as a bonafide upgrade happens. Btw, Higgins points came in at 54th. Which is why Raymond will get far more than the league minimum and a two way contract you suggest.

[CanucksJay]

no you are !?!

Is this really what we're doing now?

[Bodee]

Raymond really shoulders far too much criticism considering he has been a guy who has always earned less than the league average while producing an average of 39 points/82 games in the NHL - average second line production, while not necessarily getting second line minutes.

Raymond's primarily problem in my opinion has nothing to do with being "soft" or falling a lot (the season after returning from a broken back - this year he was much stronger on his skates, and that joke died an appropriate death as it scarcely occured).

His primary problem here is one of fit. First, he's a left wing on a team rich at that position. The result - both he and Burrows, two versatile players, have wound up playing primarily right wing. Second problem of fit - the challenge of fitting well with Kesler. The two had great chemistry four years ago - since then, not so much.

He's struggled relative to that 25 goal season - but he has still average 17 goals/82 games since. Not that bad, particularly for a guy whose speed and backcheck gave his some quite impressive underlying numbers up to that point where he broke his back. Since then, average/break even underlying numbers, but for a slightly 2+ million cap hit - still a good contract.

Raymond's faults have been the most repeated thing on CDC the past few years - his strengths - not so much.

Raymond has the rare ability on this team to carry the puck with speed and back defenders off - he's quite adept at pulling up near the opposition's faceoff circles and finding the trailer for some consistent, quality scoring chances. Good passer who defers a lot to the point men.

This season, I thought he looked best when he was playing with Hansen and centered by Schroeder on the third line. That line's speed, puck pursuit and two way game was pretty effective when they played together. He fit well there - but many folks would prefer a bigger, more punishing third line as opposed to that type of speed and skill line.

I think he's a good hockey player who at his worst has some good upside (17 goals/82 games is pretty good for a struggling/recovering guy). I like Raymond and am not counting the days until his departure. There is the difficulty of a good fit when the rest of the lineup isn't particularly large and physical, but for the price, he's been a very good homegrown player.

Wherever he winds up, I hope he is successful.

[CanucksJay]

Where's this quote I "wanted" Raymond on our second line? Where did I say we would have got out of the first round with more Raymonds? All I've maintained is his production in 09/10 and 10/11 qualifies him as a second line player. I can even make an argument his production this year qualifies him as a 2nd line player. I don't recall ever saying he'd be my first choice for a second line I put together. Although I'd be more inclined to use him there than Higgins if that was the given choice.

You see I'm not crying at all. You seem to be the one making the whiny, childish posts full of gross exaggerations. There really are English classes you can take to improve your comprehension. Then maybe you'll understand the points I make. You may even manage to get at least one thing I say right in the process. That would be a nice change.

Argue this:

There's 60 LW positions in the entire leagues top six. If you consider the 30 most productive the to be the top line left wingers it stands to reason that the guys from 31st to 60th would be the second line players. This would make 45th/46th place the average production for second line left wingers. Following so far? Well Raymond finished tied at 34th in production among the leagues left wingers. Which qualifies him as what? An actual second line winger perhaps. I'm still not saying I want him re-signed. I want an upgrade to the second line. I could give a rats tush whether it's Raymond or Booth that leaves to accommodate the upgrade as long as a bonafide upgrade happens. Btw, Higgins points came in at 54th. Which is why Raymond will get far more than the league minimum and a two way contract you suggest.

[Bodee]

I'm so confused by your flip flopping.

The first part of your post is saying how you AREN'T advocating for Raymond to be on the 2nd line BUT the 2nd part is evidence that he SHOULD be on the 2nd line.

What position are you arguing?

Also I think he will go for at least 2.5-3m?

What is this 2 way league min you speak of?

[CanucksJay]

Also even if we argue my reasoning for statistics and bump him up to 135th forward (moving him up 65 spots), do we really want an AVERAGE 2nd liner?

[CanucksJay]

It seems to point out he is versatile and a bargain. Why argue Raymond's value/usefulness in isolation?

It is obvious that Booth and Kesler were not clicking and Raymond suffered. Kesler AND Raymond also had health issues while on the 2nd. You could also argue Booth also had issues with his coming and going and never settling in.

However, what can't be denied and where Booth is excluded, is that when Kesler AND Raymond were both fit, they formed a formidable 2nd with Sammy.

[Bodee]

Also to argue this point...

There are people that are listed at a certain position but actually play another position.

Like Higgins playing centre? so now we are going to count Higgins production as a centre and compare him to wingers.

Same as Burrows for that stint he played centre.

Same as Roy who played from centre to wing...

You can't simply ljust look at LW because listed position is not the same position as what they are playing

so the best way would be to compare him to forwards in general.

There's 30 teams and 90 1st line positions.

Theres then 90 2nd line positions.

This year was a very good indication of Mayray's performance

Mayray averaged 0.48 pts per game

so theoretically, his points per game average should put him at 135th spot on all forwards (if we are to say he is an average forward on 2nd line).

Howevever, he is at 200 which is then mixed with 3rd liners.

Now keep in mind some players only played a small number of games and their stats are inflated. However, this has the same affect on both sides of the average

[Bite me Burr]

Could this STELLAR year stat thing be similar to the Klatt/Carter stories of old?

[sting]

I'm pretty impartial to Raymond staying. I am a sucker for Western Canadian players .

I don't think Raymond, Higgins and Booth are that much better than the other.....all 3 are top 6 tweeners and I would move any who gets me a good 3c and keep the other 2.

I will say the Kesler, Burrows and RAYMOND line was the best in anyone of our playoff games. Higgins and Booth's ability to stay healthy would also concern me going forward.

[Bodee]

Yep, I will admit Raymond is versatile. Every player has an equilibrium price.

For instance, if Raymond makes 1.5-2m, I would be inclined to keep him

However, the market price for him this summer will be 2.5-3.

Higgins signed for 2.5 and even if Mayray wanted to match that offer, I would take Higgins over Raymond.

The possibility that Raymond will make 3m makes me say good bye.

[Bodee]

I'm done guys. You're on your own.

[oldnews]

Where's this quote I "wanted" Raymond on our second line? Where did I say we would have got out of the first round with more Raymonds? All I've maintained is his production in 09/10 and 10/11 qualifies him as a second line player. I can even make an argument his production this year qualifies him as a 2nd line player. I don't recall ever saying he'd be my first choice for a second line I put together. Although I'd be more inclined to use him there than Higgins if that was the given choice.

You see I'm not crying at all. You seem to be the one making the whiny, childish posts full of gross exaggerations. There really are English classes you can take to improve your comprehension. Then maybe you'll understand the points I make. You may even manage to get at least one thing I say right in the process. That would be a nice change.

Argue this:

There's 60 LW positions in the entire leagues top six. If you consider the 30 most productive the to be the top line left wingers it stands to reason that the guys from 31st to 60th would be the second line players. This would make 45th/46th place the average production for second line left wingers. Following so far? Well Raymond finished tied at 34th in production among the leagues left wingers. Which qualifies him as what? An actual second line winger perhaps. I'm still not saying I want him re-signed. I want an upgrade to the second line. I could give a rats tush whether it's Raymond or Booth that leaves to accommodate the upgrade as long as a bonafide upgrade happens. Btw, Higgins points came in at 54th. Which is why Raymond will get far more than the league minimum and a two way contract you suggest.

[Bite me Burr]

How long must we suffer watching Raymond "hustle" around the perimeter doing nothing? He brings nothing to the game outside of a token PK role.

What is the point of dressing this guy anymore? Waive him, trade him... anything. There are no positives to his game that make the team better for having him.

I have had enough of this guy.

[Baggins]

can't it only be a one year deal if a team takes a player to mediation?