Canucks Identity Crisis

[CupisAll]

too bad gillis was too stupid to see that and has done nothing to rectify the problem since then.

[whcanuck]

Vancouver is puzzling to me, always has been. They've never quite put all the pieces together at the same time, except maybe in the early 90s, which is the closest they've been to the Stanley Cup. In my opinion, they were the better team in that 94 SCF but that's another issue. In the early 2000s, we had one of the top offenses in the league, but bad defense and shaky goaltending. Then when Vigneault came in, we had Luongo, but couldn't score that well. In 2011, it seemed like all the pieces were there, but the goal-scoring disappeared at the worst possible time. It just seems like it's always something that trips this team up. I think the Sedins can't be the focal point. Their personalities and on-ice demeanor just doesn't warrant that. They're hard workers and pretty good leaders, but you need a Linden in '94, Iginla in '04 or Gilmour in '93 type personality to take your team a long way. A warrior that lays his body on the line, finishes his checks, blocks shots and back checks like everything depends on it. Vancouver has never had the proper leadership since the 90s. Naslund, good worker, great guy, but not the personality of the three players I listed earlier. Henrik, same deal. I think we've always lacked leadership with this team. We don't handle adversity well, never really have, not when the pressure is really on. We've come back from 3-1 playoff deficits, but in '03 we just caved against Minny. In 2011 we caved against Boston, in 2009 and 2010 we caved against Chicago. Mental strength, leadership, we lack it. We don't believe we can win, so that's what happens. As far as this team? Still, lack of leadership in my opnion, not the right personalities in that room. And also, a lack of depth. If the Sedins are stopped, we've got nothing. Maybe we can turn this thing around this year, if not, we'll get some good draft picks and start building for the future, truly re-loading this hockey club.

Go Canucks!

[oldnews]

Some good points in there, but can't agree with the underlying 'Gillis wants the team to be the Bruins V2.0' bent. That would be an identity crisis given the personnel, but I think the OP has taken the liberty of straw-manning Gillis on that particular point.

They have added a few players to counter teams attempting to intimidate them or take runs at the Sedins - and that has actually had a measure of success. Kassian has sent a clear and valuable message on more than one occasion - particularly to guys like Eager who have a history of running the Sedins. Toronto's tough guy act was entirely impotent against the Canucks in that matchup.

On the other hand, the OP makes a good point that after being shafted by Devorski and dished another serving the next game, it was hardly unpredictable that he would have a hair trigger once again where Sestito and Kassian are concerned.

Imo, adding a player or two like Zack was essential. Whether an enforcer is necessary is debatable, but all in all Sestito has probably exceeded most of our expectations in terms of both the spots he picks, and not being an unbearable liability the rest of the time.

I think it's also worth noting that the teams mentioned above - specifically the Kings and Bruins - have had extended periods where they struggled mightily to score goals. Teams like the Ducks and Sharks not so much - but ironically, neither of those teams have come close to winning a Cup, whereas the Bruins and Kings have had long stretches of being offensively challenged, but playoff hockey can be forgiving in that sense.

In the end I don't see the problem as "identity" based - I think it's a lot more situational than that. I'd start with things like ending the fourth line promotions onto the top line and powerplay. I'd use an experienced winger like Higgins who is an adept puck deflecting, cycling puck hound as the net front pp presence. Kassian would have had a stint with the Sedins long before the depth forwards who have jumped him. Bieksa and Garrison together doesn't work - neither did the Edler Bieksa pairing - there are better options imo than those, and pairing Hamhuis with Tanev hasn't been wildly successful enough to stick with Bieksa and Garrison. Using Santorelli as a top 6 winger and Dalpe as the fourth line center (playing 5 minutes a game) makes the Canucks essentially a three line team, and unable to really provide the Sedins with the kind of situational play they excel most in. Yes, it's great they've developed their game in recent years to be able to play a more solid two way role, but at the same time, they were ridden like mad on a three line team in a gruelling schedule - is it really that shocking that they may have a few weeks where they appear/play like they are fatigued? Hansen is one of the best penalty killers on this team, and yet he's 13th in shorthanded ice time, less than half that of the Sedins.

I'm not complaining about Tortorella - there are a number of things I think he has brought that have improved particular areas of the team - but there are also a number of issues with the utilization of players that are very difficult to agree with. I've liked some of the decisions to split up the Sedins or load up the top line, but beyond that haven't been all that satisfied with how the forward lines have been used - and likewise with the blueline. I was happy once Hamhuis was recognized as the cornerstone of the blueline, and I liked the Bieksa Stanton pairing quite a bit, but have already stated some pairings I can't agree with.

In the end, I think it's still only slightly beyond the half way mark, and the team has had it's up and downs - I think it's a matter of identifying those things that have worked well and identifying those experiments that have failed.

Aside from that, I think the team really needs a quality third or fourth line center who can win faceoffs, handle the defensive zone starts, play shutdown against strong competition, and provide some more situational opportunities for the top lines. The team needs more hard minutes from the depth forwards. Injuries have certainly played a part in making the team look like it had a pair of fourth lines at times (despite how outstanding Richardson has been) - but that would be the area I think it really needs more from if hoping to make a push. Trying to overmilk the top line imo is not a viable long term strategy.

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

Canucks prospect Ben hutton is up for the hobey baker award for top NCAA player, and currently sitting in 2th spot behind by a 100 votes. Hutton has had an amazing year so far and has been amazing in every game i've seen him play in, and is very deserving of this award. With Canuck nation behind him he may be able to win the award too. you can vote once every day.

http://hobeybaker.co...rial-award/vote

[Hunter.S-Kerouac]

OP all due respect you and many others are missing the point. Take all the fights and shenanigans out of the game and the game was still very lopsided in the canucks favor. the rest is all secondary to that fact. We didn't capitalize on our chances and they did that is all.

[hlinkas wrister]

My 2 cents- I don't think this is a team that has been dismantled and re-built to play a physical style of hockey. It's a team that is being coached to play a physical style of hockey- and we don't have the personnel for the task. We have an abundance of small, fast, skilled forwards, who are spending their offensive zone time cycling 3 deep behind the goal line and trying to jam pucks in at the side of the net, or getting battered in the paint trying to screen the goalie. Our defense look like deer in the headlights knowing that one wrong move will result in an odd man rush because there is such a huge (or uuge as Torts would say) gap between them and the forwards. The only time I ever see one of our forwards in the high slot any more is on the power play. And our defensive zone coverage ? All 5 guys collapse so far back to the net that the probability of an odd man rush in our favour is about as likely as hell freezing over.

I like Torts, I really do. I appreciate his honour, integrity and honesty and the way he's trying to in-still those values into our players. But the guy seems hell-bent on coaching all of the creativity out of team and turning us into the 2003 Minnesota Wild. I hope Torts and the rest of the coaching staff have the flexibility to recognize that they are trying to fit square pegs into round holes but the reality is hockey people are notoriously stubborn and this is his team. They will continue this pattern until an early playoff exit ( if playoffs at all ) and then in the offseason Gillis will try to get him the pieces he needs to play his style. The days of the run and gun Canucks are gone folks. As for all of this talk of referees and NHL inconsistencies, you just got to suck it up and deal with it because it will never change.

[Guest Gumballthechewy]

We didn't win the president trophy that year with our toughness. We beat teams with our skill and our puck possessions, not by beating up the other team.

I didn't say they didn't win with skill, I'm saying everyone was crying out for toughness after the Cup finals and now we have a few players that are tough and gritty and now everyone is crying we have no skill players. Tell me, who's gone that was here during that Cup run that you would call a "skill" player? I can think of Ehrhoff and that's about it.

[shiznak]

I didn't say they didn't win with skill, I'm saying everyone was crying out for toughness after the Cup finals and now we have a few players that are tough and gritty and now everyone is crying we have no skill players. Tell me, who's gone that was here during that Cup run that you would call a "skill" player? I can think of Ehrhoff and that's about it.

Raymond, Samuelsson (not really), and Hodgson.

I'd put Salo in that category as well.

[Guest Gumballthechewy]

Raymond, Samuelsson (not really), and Hodgson.

I'd put Salo in that category as well.

Well, I agree with Hodgson as a skill player but not the others. Raymond was speedy and that's about it, Samuelsson wasn't overly spectacular in any particular way and Salo was a decent defenceman with a heavy shot. Ehrhoff was a speedy, puck moving defenceman that made the twins 100+ point players and our PP one of the deadliest in the league.

[Silfverberg Snipes]

Well, I agree with Hodgson as a skill player but not the others. Raymond was speedy and that's about it, Samuelsson wasn't overly spectacular in any particular way and Salo was a decent defenceman with a heavy shot. Ehrhoff was a speedy, puck moving defenceman that made the twins 100+ point players and our PP one of the deadliest in the league.

I'd argue that Samuelsson was the real mastermind on the powerplay. He had an incredible shot and read the Sedins like a book. Not to mention the slap pass tip in from the slot they patented. The guy was a fixture on our powerplay and severely underrated.

[RU SERIOUS]

I Agree with many that this team has no particular identity now. They are neither tough or fast, nor big or with character. They just seem to be turning into a Vanilla/Calgary type of team! I suspect it's likely due to having the team leaders being stoic sweeds - rather than Canadians with fire in their belly. Until the Sedins are gone or officially become full time 2nd line (less relevant) players, we will never see a new strong identity that this team has lacked for so long. Time will tell...

[hlinkas wrister]

Raymond, Samuelsson (not really), and Hodgson.

I'd put Salo in that category as well.

Salo has been a huge loss to our power play. Our power play in 10/11 made teams pay for taking liberties with our skill players. In the playoff run Hodgson rarely played. Raymond only had 8 points in 24 playoff games but his speed was still a valuable weapon. Samuelsson had 3 points in 11 games in that run. I don't think the problem has been a loss of skill on the team (although Ehrhoff and Salo would sure look good on our powerplay right about now). We just aren't playing a skill style of hockey anymore.

[Canuck Surfer]

There remains an issue, but not an identity crisis?

The issue is fairly straightforward at this stage. We're in transition. The Twins are slowing down. Perhaps becoming (or becoming allowed to be) better two way players. But slowing down. They are not quite as quick, their passes not quite as crisp. It could be they are just expending more energy playing defensively, vs sheltered starts. Regardless they are slowing down.

Our issue is how to deal with that!

- We could have dismantled the team by letting them ride out their deals. Then going all in for McDavid by tanking next year. Some freaks here on CDC advocate that. It goes against the grain of a small concept called competition. It would be so hard to cheer for a team that has no interest in competing.

- In the now we're trying to hold the core together and recruit / acquire young assets. Young dynamic players who can bring up the rear to start, then reinvigorate the team. In the meantime get the cap back under control and stay at least solid. I'm ok with that. Even though we're not winning; I am enjoying the fight in the team. Not quite literally, goonery anyway. I enjoy the battle level of the Santorelli's / Burrows / Higgins and Hansens of the world most. But also Bieksa not wanting his friend in goal run.

Hey, it could be argued MG blew it after our cup run. I believe that. We were actually not that small. But we lost Manny, and let Torres and Samuelsson (220, 216 and 220 lbs) go. And replaced 3 seasoned guys, Torres in particular plus Manny also being very fast and fit with one single rookie 216 lb guy and rested our cards. He was not yet seasoned, and not yet in shape but CDC loved him cuz he was mean. We lost a lot of size. MG has been correct in trying to rectify that indifference this season finally, and thank goodness.

Adding some jam to that size does not hurt either! Back to that in a moment.

I dont blame, in fact applaud, MG for letting Erhoff go. But I'm pissed he's made no effort to replace his puck moving skills. We also lost skill. Add in losing speed from Torres and Raymond, and all of the oomph from our transition game has disappeared. Add the size back into the discussion. This fundamental loss in physical size, puck moving capacity and speed from our roster the two seasons after our run has contributed in a big way to our current scoring woes now. They cant all be replaced with a light switch. Much more than the Twins decline, because the team does not have the same size and speed to afford them their cushy sheltered scoring roles.

That difference in speed and size should be bloody apparent every time we spin through Cali. We just do not match up where we can compete!

Its not an identity crisis. People would (should, they do) be silly to expect Richardson and Santorelli to replace a younger Samuelsson and speedy pre back injury Raymond. Too cheap (necessary unfortunately). But, credit to them, and the team. They are gamers!

The team is just trying to show how hard we're willing to compete, when we probably are not as good as we were...

I hate saying this. But if the guys who are supposed to score are our core players, and they aren't getting it done. Does that mean they really shouldn't be our core players?

I'm ok with staying the course until we develop/trade some pieces to get back on track. But at what point do you get to before issues like the Canucks fragile mental state, sloppy play start showing signs we're turning into the Calgary Flames from a few years ago?

It's a fine line. If we wait too long we'll get nothing for our assets. If we make moves too early then we might as well rebuild the team.

Tough call.

Not really.

As above; we dont have the same ability to compete size and speed wise with our division rivals. If teams can outskate, outhit, and push all our players into a corner > they cannot break to the front of the net to score goals. Some of the Twins lustre will be restored once we add some of that back into the team as a whole.

Nor do we (not me anyway) want to go into a deep hole as Calgary did. I could be wrong. I think the Twins have 3 to 5 good years left in them considering their extreme fitness. And we're now addressing the issue of having size and athletes on the team. Calgary let all the support around Iggy dissipate. We were on the track, but IMO since this past off season have started to rectify that.

And add some young prospects who should start to breathe life into the team.

As much as the team's a mess, this situation was created by a league that's a mess.

Of course there's an identity crisis...how can you play in a league that has different sets of rules on a nightly basis?

Two years ago most were whining that they were soft and had to toughen up. They're doing that, and this is how it goes.

Can't have your cake and eat it too. Yeah, I'm mad...but let's look at how we got here, not just that we are here. The NHL is getting worse, not better. Ha, what a joke...since Bertuzzi, what have we learned? Our injured guys speak to: nothing. This league's learned nothing except to provide lip service and timely decisions (not consistent, across the board ones...ones that suit the agenda). They still don't know their butts from a hole in the ground and I'm losing patience when I see a game like last night, where a goon can cross check the night away.

Yes: scoring is our issue and nothing the refs/league can do will fix this. Except that, if they provide a level playing field our guys can focus more on the skill end of things without having to weave a guy like Tom in just to be able to offset the crap. We weren't supposed to have to go that route, remember? After Bertuzzi, the crap was going to be weeded out.

Do I give the team a free pass? Absolutely not.

One of your best post Deb.

Fair.

And we can sense the sadness in seeing the team in decline. But I doubt you will ever completely lose faith!