"Canucks Brass Must Resist Panic" By Elliotte Friedman

[VanGnome]

If that's so, then why don't the considerably younger Stamkos or Tavares e.g. get even more, say 26-27 minutes? Surely they're in better shape, better skaters to get away from the hitting, etc.

There's a breaking point with minutes in hockey or basketball. That's why minutes in the latter are also carefully monitored, and it's one reason why Greg Popovich is widely considered one of the top three coaches -- he cuts back on his stars' minutes, especially in the most feasible situations i.e., blowouts, easier opponents, back-to-backs.

I agree with your other comments that he uses them incorrectly, though. Tortorella isn't the most progressive coach in the league, to put it mildly.

I think you somewhat answered your own question, but allow me to elaborate. The NHL is certainly, bar none, the most intense level of hockey that an individual can play, amateur or professional. In order to survive in such an intense environment, one must match their effort with the same level of intensity in order to maximize the time they have on the ice when they're put out there.

We see a lot of soft players, playing lazy hockey or otherwise not bringing a consistent level of intensity to their game. That is the breaking point in which you are referring to, X number of minutes at Y level intensity produces Z, the breaking point.

Every year, as skill and intensity ramps up, you are consistently seeing premier players playing fewer minutes than they did in the previous year, the simplest reason for that is for every year they age, they are less capable of performing at the same level as in the previous year, it's called diminishing returns. However, with respect to forwards in particular, given the degree to which they exert energy moreso than defenseman leads me to believe that they really shouldn't play much more than 20 minutes per game regardless of who it is, especially someone who plays the style of game such as Kesler... 25 minutes a night is beyond ridiculous and is only inviting injury.

The other point I made relevant to this, is the fact that it's not about the absolute number of minutes, but the quality of minutes a player is asked to perform within. Tortorella while adding approximately 2 minutes to the Sedin's average ice time is insignificant when you compare the difficulty of the minutes being asked to play. Significantly more defensive zone draws leading to being hemmed into their own zone = fewer offensive zone forrays, compounded by the lack of supporting skill on the roster. Additionally, they are being asked to Penalty Kill, and not just on the 2nd PK line, but 1st PK line in many situations. If being asked to perform these duties, their absolute ice time numbers should reduce below the levels they've been accustomed to, probably in the 16 to 17 minute range per game.

Tortorella is completely running his players into the ground, because he has no other option than to lean on the top players on this team to cover the fact that he by his OWN ADMISSION is not a great strategist, ie he can't coach very well at this level.

[khay]

#5 is particularly damning.

For Tortorella to play the Sedins 21 + minutes in a compressed Olympics schedule just shows how short-sighted and desperate for wins NOW he is, at the expense of the bigger picture. Someone should tell him that the season isn't like the Super Bowl. You have to view it, and plan for it, long-term.

As for the other rumours, unless Friedmann has legit insider news, his speculation isn't any better than those saying Aquillini IS interfering.

I'm sorry, but if supposed elite players with some of the best conditioning in the league can't handle an average increase of roughly 2 minutes per game, then they shouldn't be dubbed elite players.

IMO it's not the amount of ice time the Sedins get, it's how they're deployed for the minutes they do get. They've been taken from sheltered offensive minutes and situations, and thrust into tough, defensive minutes. Let's not fool ourselves, for every minute the Sedin's are on the penalty kill is one fewer minute that they can be on the ice in an offensive capacity to help the Canucks do what they do, and that's win (or used to be).

Not every player is suited to be a two way dynamo, Datsyuk can do it, Kesler and Toews, as well as Bergeron, among others. The Sedin's aren't suited to that style of play.

IMO the lack of offense dating back to last season was a result of the roster becoming stale. Gillis has not done enough to keep the roster fresh, and this was further exacerbated by Tortorella's incredible mismanagement of the Sedins.

Just because your kids want to jump off a cliff doesn't mean you cave in and let them. The coach is the coach, and he tells the players how he wants them to play, end of story.

As I said in a previous post, I fully expect Gillis to be here for at least 7-10 years. He's going to get the chance to have his core take over the team and have their time in the spotlight.

Tortorella will get one more chance to re think his deployment of the personnel provided to him. Expect Gillis to make some significant roster changes at the draft and target some UFA talent.

IF things get off to a rocky start next year, I don't think that Tortorella will last past the 15-20 game mark.

This is the reason why I don't like Tortorella. He seems to be ignoring these so called "research" results, which AV seemed to pay particular attention to. I didn't like AV... not because he was a bad coach but of his inability to adapt and to certain degree, stubbornness. But it looks like Torts can't adapt in-game either and disregards these small details as he is an old school coach. I wonder what Torts tells the players when things go wrong... is he giving detailed instructions to the players on adjustments that they should be making or is he merely being a cheerleader and telling the guys things like, "let's go guys, let's play hard!"

As Friedman said, I don't think Tortorella should be fired (at least this season) because as much as I have been critical of him in this post, I think he also has good qualities that were missing on this team. Only if he can adjust and change his opinions on things like managing players ice times... If a research shows that Sedins are best utilized when playing 19 minutes per game, then you continue to do that. Don't force the Sedins to be Toewes or Kesler. Toewes and Kesler will never have the offensive talent of the Sedins but the Sedins will never have the qualities Toewes and Kesler possess. Chicago doesn't force Kane to play like Toewes and Penguins don't force Malkin to play like Crosby. Every player has their role, the Sedins role is to score and Kesler is more than capable of doing the things that Sedins don't do well.

If the teams really aren't offering great package for Kes (like Teuvo Teravainen, Saad, and Leddy as rumoured or Pouliot, Sutter, Bennet or whatever is the right price for Kes), then we should keep him. Bring in some young guys + free agents to help Kesler and the Sedins next season.

If we manage the Sedins ice time right, their production should return to PPG level. Hopefully one of Jensen, Shinkaruk, or Kassian can fit in and play well with the Sedins.

If we can make Kes's job easier by employing highly capable winger for him, who can check and has some offensive upsides, then he will be happy again. I think Horvat can be that guy. Horvat can start as a winger for Kesler where they rotate the faceoffs and are employed against opposition's top players. Horvat can learn by playing with Kesler, so that one day (possibly two years from now), Horvat can step in and take over. Keep Higgins on that line or try Shinkaruk if he's ready.

It looks like we have a very capable third line center in Matthias, we already have a great checkers in Burrows and Hansen to surround Matthias with (although if Burrows doesn't perform better, he will be the next Booth and should be traded). This line has enough offensive upsides and speed to score some goals too. It will be a very solid third line.

The fourth line can be centered by Richardson with Sestito and Kassian as wingers. At this point, if Kassian doesn't fit in on playing on top two lines, we might as well train him as a fourth liner. Let him first become a capable fourth liner who knows that his job is, to hit and be physical like Nolan in LA. Once this side of his game is honed, then we will see down the road if he is ready to be a top 6 forward.

The team is terrible now but I don't think we will be too bad. Assuming that Horvat is ready next season, we just need one another young player to step in and perform well to go back to the playoffs. I hope that can be Jensen or Shinkaruk but if neither is ready, we would have to sign a top 6 forward via UFA or trade to get there.

[ShakyWalton]

Guess your a fan of Botchford and Gallager stories

where do I say I am a fan of Botch and Gallagher, because I dont like eastern writers telling us what is wrong or right with our team?

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

This is the reason why I don't like Tortorella. He seems to be ignoring these so called "research" results, which AV seemed to pay particular attention to. I didn't like AV... not because he was a bad coach but of his inability to adapt and to certain degree, stubbornness. But it looks like Torts can't adapt in-game either and disregards these small details as he is an old school coach. I wonder what Torts tells the players when things go wrong... is he giving detailed instructions to the players on adjustments that they should be making or is he merely being a cheerleader and telling the guys things like, "let's go guys, let's play hard!"

As Friedman said, I don't think Tortorella should be fired (at least this season) because as much as I have been critical of him in this post, I think he also has good qualities that were missing on this team. Only if he can adjust and change his opinions on things like managing players ice times... If a research shows that Sedins are best utilized when playing 19 minutes per game, then you continue to do that. Don't force the Sedins to be Toewes or Kesler. Toewes and Kesler will never have the offensive talent of the Sedins but the Sedins will never have the qualities Toewes and Kesler possess. Chicago doesn't force Kane to play like Toewes and Penguins don't force Malkin to play like Crosby. Every player has their role, the Sedins role is to score and Kesler is more than capable of doing the things that Sedins don't do well.

If the teams really aren't offering great package for Kes (like Teuvo Teravainen, Saad, and Leddy as rumoured or Pouliot, Sutter, Bennet or whatever is the right price for Kes), then we should keep him. Bring in some young guys + free agents to help Kesler and the Sedins next season.

If we manage the Sedins ice time right, their production should return to PPG level. Hopefully one of Jensen, Shinkaruk, or Kassian can fit in and play well with the Sedins.

If we can make Kes's job easier by employing highly capable winger for him, who can check and has some offensive upsides, then he will be happy again. I think Horvat can be that guy. Horvat can start as a winger for Kesler where they rotate the faceoffs and are employed against opposition's top players. Horvat can learn by playing with Kesler, so that one day (possibly two years from now), Horvat can step in and take over. Keep Higgins on that line or try Shinkaruk if he's ready.

It looks like we have a very capable third line center in Matthias, we already have a great checkers in Burrows and Hansen to surround Matthias with (although if Burrows doesn't perform better, he will be the next Booth and should be traded). This line has enough offensive upsides and speed to score some goals too. It will be a very solid third line.

The fourth line can be centered by Richardson with Sestito and Kassian as wingers. At this point, if Kassian doesn't fit in on playing on top two lines, we might as well train him as a fourth liner. Let him first become a capable fourth liner who knows that his job is, to hit and be physical like Nolan in LA. Once this side of his game is honed, then we will see down the road if he is ready to be a top 6 forward.

The team is terrible now but I don't think we will be too bad. Assuming that Horvat is ready next season, we just need one another young player to step in and perform well to go back to the playoffs. I hope that can be Jensen or Shinkaruk but if neither is ready, we would have to sign a top 6 forward via UFA or trade to get there.

I don't understand how torts even with so much time given (1 week christmas break, 6 game suspension, Olympic Break) has not managed to do any research of his own and implement any changes. He has no clue how to adapt and is far worse than AV at it.That being said I think he just needs to learn how to use the sedins properly to begin seeing results. Henrik came after the christmas break and had 7 points in 7 games after including a great game against Anaheim so it's still possible for him to be at that level.

[Barry_Wilkins]

I think you somewhat answered your own question, but allow me to elaborate. The NHL is certainly, bar none, the most intense level of hockey that an individual can play, amateur or professional. In order to survive in such an intense environment, one must match their effort with the same level of intensity in order to maximize the time they have on the ice when they're put out there.

We see a lot of soft players, playing lazy hockey or otherwise not bringing a consistent level of intensity to their game. That is the breaking point in which you are referring to, X number of minutes at Y level intensity produces Z, the breaking point.

Every year, as skill and intensity ramps up, you are consistently seeing premier players playing fewer minutes than they did in the previous year, the simplest reason for that is for every year they age, they are less capable of performing at the same level as in the previous year, it's called diminishing returns. However, with respect to forwards in particular, given the degree to which they exert energy moreso than defenseman leads me to believe that they really shouldn't play much more than 20 minutes per game regardless of who it is, especially someone who plays the style of game such as Kesler... 25 minutes a night is beyond ridiculous and is only inviting injury.

The other point I made relevant to this, is the fact that it's not about the absolute number of minutes, but the quality of minutes a player is asked to perform within. Tortorella while adding approximately 2 minutes to the Sedin's average ice time is insignificant when you compare the difficulty of the minutes being asked to play. Significantly more defensive zone draws leading to being hemmed into their own zone = fewer offensive zone forrays, compounded by the lack of supporting skill on the roster. Additionally, they are being asked to Penalty Kill, and not just on the 2nd PK line, but 1st PK line in many situations. If being asked to perform these duties, their absolute ice time numbers should reduce below the levels they've been accustomed to, probably in the 16 to 17 minute range per game.

Tortorella is completely running his players into the ground, because he has no other option than to lean on the top players on this team to cover the fact that he by his OWN ADMISSION is not a great strategist, ie he can't coach very well at this level.

Well-thought post. I agree.

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

where do I say I am a fan of Botch and Gallagher, because I dont like eastern writers telling us what is wrong or right with our team?

Friedman is not your typical Canuck bashing eastern media reporter

[Quoted]

.

this

who cares what eastern writers have to say..do something to make this team competitive.

So just because someone is based in the east, they can't have anything intelligent or insightful to offer? I don't get it....

[khay]

I don't understand how torts even with so much time given (1 week christmas break, 6 game suspension, Olympic Break) has not managed to do any research of his own and implement any changes. He has no clue how to adapt and is far worse than AV at it.That being said I think he just needs to learn how to use the sedins properly to begin seeing results. Henrik came after the christmas break and had 7 points in 7 games after including a great game against Anaheim so it's still possible for him to be at that level.

The christmas break, he probably felt there was no need to do any research or adjust his coaching style as things were going well (remember we won almost every game in December). During the suspension, he might have felt that the team didn't play well because he isn't coaching and that the team should perform well as soon as he gets back behind the bench. It is only now and that he is probably feeling the need to do more research...

I agree that the twins are still capable of scoring at a PPG rate. They were still at their world class level for the first half of the season.

[Nuxfanabroad]

Friedman is one of the few in sports media that isn't a complete d-bag hack. He's actually a reasonable human who happens to work in sport media.

Which, in this day & age, might be a Nobel-worthy accomplishment.

[ShakyWalton]

Friedman is not your typical Canuck bashing eastern media reporter

because he seems like a nice guy and is the best out of that cess pool on HNIC..then I guess so.

[aGENT]

because he seems like a nice guy and is the best out of that cess pool on HNIC..then I guess so.

No because he doesn't pull the same sensationalist, hack job form of reporting as the rest of those morons. He's generally intelligent and thoughtful. My goodness it's refreshing (and rare).

[ShakyWalton]

So just because someone is based in the east, they can't have anything intelligent or insightful to offer? I don't get it....

I dont really care what you get bro..the eastern writers slag us more than our own do which is alot...just tired of some eastern writer/on air person chiming in on whats right or wrong with our team is all.

I guess they have their opinions..but I dont really care.

[DIBdaQUIB]

Friedman is the most level-headed and unbiased reporter I have seen. What he says is well thought out and rational.

Too many Nucks fans are just "raw" from all the bad press this team has been subject to but Friedman is worth paying attention to.

[elvis15]

I'm sorry, but if supposed elite players with some of the best conditioning in the league can't handle an average increase of roughly 2 minutes per game, then they shouldn't be dubbed elite players.

IMO it's not the amount of ice time the Sedins get, it's how they're deployed for the minutes they do get. They've been taken from sheltered offensive minutes and situations, and thrust into tough, defensive minutes.

...

You kind of contradict yourself here.

"If they were elite they'd be able to handle 2 extra minutes/they can't handle the increased time in tough defensive situations."

That's just it, their deployment has changed and they were clearly successful at the minutes they had before. They've added a minute per game of PK time to their overall time this year versus previous years, but they've also added a minute extra of even strength time. Their PP time has stayed roughly the same per game. Those extra minutes are all tougher so I'm not sure why someone would think adding those kind of minutes as they get older and the team has not been as good would be helpful.

I'm ok if they get used as an extra pair on the PK behind guys like Burrows, Kesler, Richardson, Higgins and now Matthias - which they are - but I don't know why they'd get used ahead of Hansen.

It was talked about earlier how Hansen's PK minutes are way down this year, and it's a similar (but opposite) correlation to his play. The Sedins went from less than 10 seconds of PK per game to just over a minute this year. Hansen's gone from 2+ minutes of PK per game to just under a minute and he's now behind the Sedins in PK time.

Some players thrive off of certain types of play and it allows them to gain confidence to just play when they get to other situations. We've seen in the past where players have been forced into roles they might not otherwise because of lack of options, but I don't think this line up has been used as well as it could or should be.

I understand wanting to make sure your best players are invested by having them play in all areas, but at some point there has to be a balance so that other players are used properly and your aren't overworking the players you rely on to score.

Frankly he's the only person worth listening to on that show.

I don't hate Weekes, but Healey and Stock are abysmal and MacLean and Cherry aren't any better when they get their time.

Since you've read a lot of my posts over the years, you should damn well know why.

I guess I should. Although I'm not sure we agree on why that is though.

[TOMapleLaughs]

And I'm not sure why you have to police every single post on the board, let lone thread. I guess there's a lot to not be sure about here.

[Ronalds.Kenins41]

because he seems like a nice guy and is the best out of that cess pool on HNIC..then I guess so. he's unbiased, composed and professional at all times and reports insider news few know about.

Fixed

Him and McKenzie are the only ones I trust cause they don't say something unless they know it's true and they tend not to make predictions.

[YEGCanuck]

I believe Friedman has more insightful knowledge of NHL teams than most people. Agree with his assessment or not at least he speaks with some intelligence.

[VanGnome]

You kind of contradict yourself here.

"If they were elite they'd be able to handle 2 extra minutes/they can't handle the increased time in tough defensive situations."

That's just it, their deployment has changed and they were clearly successful at the minutes they had before. They've added a minute per game of PK time to their overall time this year versus previous years, but they've also added a minute extra of even strength time. Their PP time has stayed roughly the same per game. Those extra minutes are all tougher so I'm not sure why someone would think adding those kind of minutes as they get older and the team has not been as good would be helpful.

I'm ok if they get used as an extra pair on the PK behind guys like Burrows, Kesler, Richardson, Higgins and now Matthias - which they are - but I don't know why they'd get used ahead of Hansen.

It was talked about earlier how Hansen's PK minutes are way down this year, and it's a similar (but opposite) correlation to his play. The Sedins went from less than 10 seconds of PK per game to just over a minute this year. Hansen's gone from 2+ minutes of PK per game to just under a minute and he's now behind the Sedins in PK time.

Some players thrive off of certain types of play and it allows them to gain confidence to just play when they get to other situations. We've seen in the past where players have been forced into roles they might not otherwise because of lack of options, but I don't think this line up has been used as well as it could or should be.

I understand wanting to make sure your best players are invested by having them play in all areas, but at some point there has to be a balance so that other players are used properly and your aren't overworking the players you rely on to score.

I don't hate Weekes, but Healey and Stock are abysmal and MacLean and Cherry aren't any better when they get their time.

I guess I should. Although I'm not sure we agree on why that is though.

You've completely missed the point.

The first two statements are not mutually exclusive, it was a direct rebuttal of Elliot Friedman's blanket statement of them not being able to handle 2 extra minutes per game.

The second statement went on to elaborate, stating that the absolute number of minutes pales in comparison to the direct deployment of those minutes.

To spew out a generality that "its 1 minute of PK per game and 1 minute more of even strength time" is naive and way too general. The Sedins have been requested to burden more of the defensive load when they are on the ice, playing a more complete 2 way game.

In order to adjust their game so radically, means they need to take a completely different approach to the game than what they have been for the past decade. Hence, even when they are on the PP, and even strength, their primary consideration has shifted to defensive reliability, hence tougher minutes.

They need to make more adjustments to encompass that style of play. I don't mean to direct this solely at you, but would it kill people to look beyond the words, and have some ability to think critically as opposed to literally? Reading comprehension isn't that tough of a skill to master, nor is abstract and critical thinking.

[elvis15]

And you've missed my point. Not only has their TOI increased, but so has the difficulty of their deployment. Who's to say they couldn't handle two extra minutes if those where in even strength or man advantage situations (particularly starting in the offensive zone) versus the opposite? Is it only elite if a player can handle both options?

You're statement was simplistic I guess and I was just pointing out how it didn't match with what you were trying to rationalize in the rest of your post - the part I agree with.

It's not a generality of 1 extra minute of PK and even strength each, that's a fact based on their TOI listed at NHL.com the last three years. Those two stats don't specifically take into account other factors like zone starts, you're right, but they're certainly suggestive of the kind of minutes a player would have in those situations and gives us an idea of the style they'd need to be playing as a result.

And I'm not sure why you have to police every single post on the board, let lone thread. I guess there's a lot to not be sure about here.

Not that I'm policing, just commenting, but maybe for the same reason you get upset when someone points out the obvious on why you're even in a thread to begin with?

[TOMapleLaughs]

Not upset, just pointing out that there are many ways to complain about threads. I've found this one to be useless due to biased content. You can find another to be useless due to redundancy, even though those complaints in themselves are getting pretty redundant. I think we're both well aware of what type of reaction we're after with these posts. Not sure why mine in this case was even worth responding to, since it's just my opinion on the media person in question and I think it's a valid one. If you don't like my opinion, oh well.