Nikolaj Ehlers

[iinatcc]

However, Maxim Afinogenov was faster than Bure, but had a hockey IQ south of Cam Barker.

I must admit I laughed :D

[VanCanuck1997]

Ehlers would be a great draft choice if a top 5 does not fall to us

[Absent Canuck]

It's certainly not the be all end all and I agree that the structure of the leagues affects how you look at the info.

The real question, in my mind, is not how many points and goals he gets against the lesser teams but how few of them come against top teams. To me this suggest a correlation that he gets shut down a lot against higher quality competition, at least in this one season. As I said in a previous post, it will greatly depend on his next level and how well he can adjust. He is doubtless going to improve upon those numbers next season but can he raise his game enough to equalize those numbers a bit. Only time will tell.

In the past I've looked for a greater balance in scoring against competition as an indicator of whether a prospect can maintain their pace under more difficult circumstances. Ehlers numbers in this regard are quite tilted in the wrong direction. Again, it's not definitive but it is an indicator to me.

You continue to fail to mention that your research is constructed around a pre determined point that you wish to find.You took the cherry picked part of the data you thought you could exploit to a negative end and then just used straight conjecture to frame the conclusions without any context of other prospects as a comparison.

[Ihatetomatoes]

You continue to fail to mention that your research is constructed around a pre determined point that you wish to find. Your conclusion should be objective . Instead, they all seem to point to a concern of Ehlers. We go back on this thread and any conversation you have about Ehlers leads to a 'concern' .

It is true that your 'reseach' may fool the kids who come here and dont know any better. Wetcoaster also used to come here and appear to be well thought out to young people by piling walls of text over their head.

However, to those of us who have been around a long time, your research is pre determined to conclude what you set out to show . All you did is dig around the stats long enough until you found an angle you thought you can exploit.

In political circles we call it 'digging for dirt' . Not a hard concept to understand. In fact, there has never been a human being who was impervious to being exploited in a negative way . Call it cynical, call it negative Call it what you will.

You get really upset when something negative gets said about Ehlers.

I'm guessing its because you challenged anyone to find any actual statistical evidence to prove that Ehlers is a can't miss prospect. Now that some has come out you can't handle being wrong so you claim its a witch hunt and doesn't mean anything.

[Absent Canuck]

Yeah its a valid concern, I'd think there are other prospects where that would apply aswell, but I don't know I just don't think its a huge deal, we will have to see beyond this year to see what happens.

Its a made up concern. He did not make the primafaca case that Ehlers numbers were any worse than the other draft hopefulls nor did he even prove his cherry picked thin slice was even cause for concern as opposed to anyone else.

He just states that took some data, then used straight conjecture to frame it as a concern. proclaims it a problem without proving how it is a problem from historical data to compare how other high end draft picks failed or succeeded with those same stats.

The fact you just 'decide' its a legitimate point without any context at all is disappointing. You realize this is the same guy who took time to look up how many posts each member had on this thread? His brain told him its a worthwhile exercise. He never did it with any other thread of course so it probably wasnt much of an 'objective' task.

He is also the guy who stated 5 days ago he knew Kyle Beach was no good and at the time wouldnt have taken him until the third round. Every single scout and mock draft had him anywhere from 10 to 24. He thinks we are all a bunch of suckers and will believe anything.

Now he expects you to believe that Ehlers has 'concerns' .......because he cherry picked information he dug out and then proclaimed so using straight conjecture to analyse it with no other prospect examples to compare it to. He thinks we are idiots and will believe anything.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

Ehlers plays the Kessel role on the PP, he's always on that one side either higher or lower depending on whats going on with the puck, its hockey sense, getting himself open to get goals, thats why you see in his highlights some goals are wrists shots from the point on the PP, or some lower down for the backdoor play.

Anyways I would argue Ehlers doesn't just bring offense, I mean yeah thats what he is drafted for to be an offensive player, but you bring up Virtanen, and I would say he's being drafted for his goal scoring, yeah he has a physical element that could make him a 4th line guy, but I would say Ehlers could also be a very useful penalty killer, since he has the willingness to play a two-way game, he will grow in that area, and with his speed could be a responsible two-way player, say for whatever reason he doesn't hit high potential, he could be a Carl Hagelin type with a bit better offensive skill, which IMO is a much better style comparison than Raymond.

If your comparing both players:

Ehlers brings offence, vision and speed. His ideal fit would be to be that PP guy similarly to Kessel. Could he be molded into a defensive player? sure but same could be said with Virtanen as well. He could bring the top 6 some excitement with his hands and speed.

Virtanen brings goal scoring, physical play, and speed, He can be a top unit PP guy but that’s not really his ideal spot. He is a more versatile player, similar to E.Kane. He provides the top 6 with high energy, with his physical play and goal scoring.

Both players are important pieces to a top 6, it just comes down to how to Linden see this team and what player he thinks will be able to elevate their game to the next level. Does he want a high scoring, high excitement team or does he want a high scoring team that’s tough to play against and makes you earn every win.

What piece does he think this team needs moving forward? Cases can be made with all the prospects in our pick range.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

Its a made up concern. He did not make the primafaca case that Ehlers numbers were any worse than the other draft hopefulls nor did he even prove his cherry picked thin slice was even cause for concern as opposed to anyone else.

He just states that took some data, then used straight conjecture to frame it as a concern. proclaims it a problem without proving how it is a problem from historical data to compare how other high end draft picks failed or succeeded with those same stats.

The fact you just 'decide' its a legitimate point without any context at all is disappointing. You realize this is the same guy who took time to look up how many posts each member had on this thread? His brain told him its a worthwhile exercise. He never did it with any other thread of course so it probably wasnt much of an 'objective' task.

He is also the guy who stated 5 days ago he knew Kyle Beach was no good and at the time wouldnt have taken him until the third round. Every single scout and mock draft had him anywhere from 10 to 24. He thinks we are all a bunch of suckers and will believe anything.

Now he expects you to believe that Ehlers has 'concerns' .......because he cherry picked information he dug out and then proclaimed so using straight conjecture to analyse it with no other prospect examples to compare it to. He thinks we are idiots and will believe anything.

Your right ehlers is flawless.....

Minister made some good points based on facts, surronding questions others have. If you want to disregard go for it. You cherry picked just as many stats to support Ehlers.

Any time someone brings up a weak point in Ehlers game you lose your mind. You do realize Smashian is an Ehlers supporter. If Ehlers didn't have any weak area's (which you argue your life on), or question marks around his game he'd be ranked 1st overall. Not in the third tier of prospects.

[Smashian Kassian]

If your comparing both players:

Ehlers brings offence, vision and speed. His ideal fit would be to be that PP guy similarly to Kessel. Could he be molded into a defensive player? sure but same could be said with Virtanen as well. He could bring the top 6 some excitement with his hands and speed.

Virtanen brings goal scoring, physical play, and speed, He can be a top unit PP guy but that’s not really his ideal spot. He is a more versatile player, similar to E.Kane. He provides the top 6 with high energy, with his physical play and goal scoring.

Both players are important pieces to a top 6, it just comes down to how to Linden see this team and what player he thinks will be able to elevate their game to the next level. Does he want a high scoring, high excitement team or does he want a high scoring team that’s tough to play against and makes you earn every win.

What piece does he think this team needs moving forward? Cases can be made with all the prospects in our pick range.

I agree with your analysis, I was just saying the notion that Ehlers isnone dimensional and can't bring anything other than offense is wrong IMO, and that was my point.

I don't think this pick will determine what type of team we will be, you need to have a good amount of everything to win, you need offense, two-way play, bigger players. Ehlers would just be adding a major piece in the offensive part of that (which is the biggest piece we are missing) to go along with players that bring the other elements (Kass, Jensen, Horvat, Cassels, Gaunce, Grenier, Cederholm, exc. There is alot of size, good two-way play & some grit in that group)

I think the offensive skill is higher in Ehlers than Virtanen IMO, he can drive the offense better than Virtanen, Virtanen can score himself, and create chances for himself, but doesn't drive the offense like Ehlers. Which we really need since the Twins are the only players we have now IMO that can really drive offense Kesler can score & create offense like Virtanen but he doesn't drive offense like the Sedins & like I think Ehlers will be able too. Not saying this pick is about now, if we pick Ehlers he won't be ready for awhile, but aside from the Twins in our whole organization who can drive offense, maybe Shinkaruk, but I don't see many else.

And one last thing, both could be molded into the defensive players, I just think the speed & hockey sense advantage with Ehlers (aswell as he's already one of the top PKers for Halifax) could be better assets for him to become a better or more useful defensive player/PKer.

Your right ehlers is flawless.....

Minister made some good points based on facts, surronding questions others have. If you want to disregard go for it. You cherry picked just as many stats to support Ehlers.

Any time someone brings up a weak point in Ehlers game you lose your mind. You do realize Smashian is an Ehlers supporter. If Ehlers didn't have any weak area's (which you argue your life on), or question marks around his game he'd be ranked 1st overall. Not in the third tier of prospects

If he had played in the CHL last year I think he would be considered in the same class as the top 5 honestly. I don't see why he wouldn't be.

[Wonder__Bread]

If your comparing both players:

Ehlers brings offence, vision and speed. His ideal fit would be to be that PP guy similarly to Kessel. Could he be molded into a defensive player? sure but same could be said with Virtanen as well. He could bring the top 6 some excitement with his hands and speed.

Virtanen brings goal scoring, physical play, and speed, He can be a top unit PP guy but that’s not really his ideal spot. He is a more versatile player, similar to E.Kane. He provides the top 6 with high energy, with his physical play and goal scoring.

Both players are important pieces to a top 6, it just comes down to how to Linden see this team and what player he thinks will be able to elevate their game to the next level. Does he want a high scoring, high excitement team or does he want a high scoring team that’s tough to play against and makes you earn every win.

What piece does he think this team needs moving forward? Cases can be made with all the prospects in our pick range.

The thing is, Ehlers is already solid defensively and he has the higher hockey IQ imo. Those 2 things already make him more versatile than Virtanen. I think you've misjudged Ehlers and as always you have the right to your opinion but it just seems you haven't watched much of Ehlers other than highlight packages.

Ehlers is relentless on the forecheck and on the puck. What I saw in him was that superstar trait that he always wanted the puck and was always around the puck, always hungry for the puck. That's something only great players have. Also he's a true professional when it comes to the fans and he has a great work ethic. That alone with his skill should be enough.

Now he's not perfect, will his game translate to the NHL? Will he fill out his frame? Will he be the same player without Drouin on the team? Only time will tell, but I'm willing to take that risk, hopefully Linden and our new GM are as well.

Also this pick doesn't define our team, it's a piece that might just make the fading Sedin era a lot easier to manage. Ehlers does throw the occasional "big hit" (however big that may seem), but what makes him harder to play against than Virtanen, is his hunger for the puck. Although Virtanen, when on, can be a monster, he's very inconsistent.

I guess it all depends on your definition of tough to play against. Personally, throwing big hits and just being big doesn't make you tough to play against, being relentless on the forecheck and forcing defenders to make mistakes is tough to play against.

[Smashian Kassian]

The thing is, Ehlers is already solid defensively and he has the higher hockey IQ imo. Those 2 things already make him more versatile than Virtanen. I think you've misjudged Ehlers and as always you have the right to your opinion but it just seems you haven't watched much of Ehlers other than highlight packages.

Ehlers is relentless on the forecheck and on the puck. What I saw in him was that superstar trait that he always wanted the puck and was always around the puck, always hungry for the puck. That's something only great players have. Also he's a true professional when it comes to the fans and he has a great work ethic. That alone with his skill should be enough.

Now he's not perfect, will his game translate to the NHL? Will he fill out his frame? Will he be the same player without Drouin on the team? Only time will tell, but I'm willing to take that risk, hopefully Linden and our new GM are as well.

Also this pick doesn't define our team, it's a piece that might just make the fading Sedin era a lot easier to manage. Ehlers does throw the occasional "big hit" (however big that may seem), but what makes him harder to play against than Virtanen, is his hunger for the puck. Although Virtanen, when on, can be a monster, he's very inconsistent.

I guess it all depends on your definition of tough to play against. Personally, throwing big hits and just being big doesn't make you tough to play against, being relentless on the forecheck and forcing defenders to make mistakes is tough to play against.

Well said.

That's what makes him so intriguing for me aswell, his drive.

He has the skill, alot of guys do, but combining that (and the skating ability) with his drive is what IMO could make him a star.

[WiDeN]

100% agree about the Bure comparison. If there was a comparison to be made, then that player would be the undisputed 1st overall. Bure was one of the absolute best players ever to grace the ice. The only reason he wasn't a 1st ballot HOFer was his knee-shortened career and a game 7 short of a cup. Had Bure played in the post-lockout NHL, he would have been unstoppable.

[TOMapleLaughs]

The thing is, Ehlers is already solid defensively and he has the higher hockey IQ imo. Those 2 things already make him more versatile than Virtanen. I think you've misjudged Ehlers and as always you have the right to your opinion but it just seems you haven't watched much of Ehlers other than highlight packages.

Ehlers is relentless on the forecheck and on the puck. What I saw in him was that superstar trait that he always wanted the puck and was always around the puck, always hungry for the puck. That's something only great players have. Also he's a true professional when it comes to the fans and he has a great work ethic. That alone with his skill should be enough.

Now he's not perfect, will his game translate to the NHL? Will he fill out his frame? Will he be the same player without Drouin on the team? Only time will tell, but I'm willing to take that risk, hopefully Linden and our new GM are as well.

Also this pick doesn't define our team, it's a piece that might just make the fading Sedin era a lot easier to manage. Ehlers does throw the occasional "big hit" (however big that may seem), but what makes him harder to play against than Virtanen, is his hunger for the puck. Although Virtanen, when on, can be a monster, he's very inconsistent.

I guess it all depends on your definition of tough to play against. Personally, throwing big hits and just being big doesn't make you tough to play against, being relentless on the forecheck and forcing defenders to make mistakes is tough to play against.

Seen many backcheck-free shifts from him, and that was during an important playoff series. Relentless on the forecheck? Not sure. Maybe now and then he'll pressure a guy, but defenders are able to brush him off fairly easily, with and without the puck, from what i saw. I think he could be an effective 'pick off the pass' guy like prime Raymond was. Grabner was good at that as well. But on the boards? Nah-ah.

I think Forsberg's point stands. It's a pretty simple one to follow and there's no reason to make it more complicated.

[Wonder__Bread]

Seen many backcheck-free shifts from him, and that was during an important playoff series. Relentless on the forecheck? Not sure. Maybe now and then he'll pressure a guy, but defenders are able to brush him off fairly easily, with and without the puck, from what i saw. I think he could be an effective 'pick off the pass' guy like prime Raymond was. Grabner was good at that as well. But on the boards? Nah-ah.

I think Forsberg's point stands. It's a pretty simple one to follow and there's no reason to make it more complicated.

Maybe it's just perspective, but I don't see that to the extent you do. Ehlers does have a tendency to cheat a little sometimes but he's a winger, doesn't mean he's terrible defensively. Chris Higgins cheats all the time and yet he's considered a solid 2 way player around the NHL. Higgins also generates a lot of chances because of it. If Higgins, who is slower and has worst hands than Ehlers can get away with it, why can't Ehlers?

Ehlers may not be the biggest, and he most likely loses the size battle 9 times out of 10, but his drive and his stick work are exceptional, so exceptional in fact that he can get away with being smaller yet still be defensively responsible and come away with the puck. Smart players always win over players with size.

Also Ehlers is a great penalty killer, had the best +/- in the Q, obviously whatever he's doing, is working. No need to over analyze things TOM. He's not perfect, but what he's doing works, and works very well.

[youngdad]

Can anyone tell me a little bit bout nylander . I've never seen him. Can you describe him to me

He's a she.

[Hairy Kneel]

Raymond 2.0

[S N Y P E R S 7]

Raymond 2.0?
What the hell?
Ehlers is so much better... There's a reason he's been considered top 5, and Mason Raymond was picked 51 in one of the worst drafts of all time, 2005.

My advice? Shut up and watch Ehlers play. How many full mooseheads games have you even watched?

[Absent Canuck]

Raymond 2.0?

What the hell?

Ehlers is so much better... There's a reason he's been considered top 5, and Mason Raymond was picked 51 in one of the worst drafts of all time, 2005.

My advice? Shut up and watch Ehlers play. How many full mooseheads games have you even watched?

The argument over Ehlers ended 30 pages ago. Its all trolling , rehashing talked out objections, or over analyzing cherry picked stats. . The thread is just going around in circles of spite . There isnt much point to it until the combine.

By the way. Raymond was drafted at age 20 in the second round. Its actually quite amazing he made it as far as he has considering how low regarded he was.

[MayRayDown]

Raymond 2.0?

What the hell?

Ehlers is so much better... There's a reason he's been considered top 5, and Mason Raymond was picked 51 in one of the worst drafts of all time, 2005.

My advice? Shut up and watch Ehlers play. How many full mooseheads games have you even watched?

This draft won't be better than 2005

[S N Y P E R S 7]

This draft won't be better than 2005

Then that goes to show how good Ehlers has to be to make it to top-10 whispers.

[Smashian Kassian]

Raymond 2.0

If your going to make a lowball potential comparison.

Atleast choose a comparable player.

Which would be Carl Hagelin IMO.