Linden Wants Kes to Stay, Right?

[davinci]

Fudge I can't go through another season with the "core"

Sedin-Sedin-Burrows

Higgins-Kesler-Kassian

Booth-Matthias-Hansen

Sestito-Richardson-Lain/Archie

Edler-Bieksa

Hamhuis-Garrison

Stanton-Tanev

PUKEEEEEE

I'm really looking for them to move two of (Kesler, Higgins, Hansen, Burrows) and 1 of (Bieksa, Garrison, Edler)

Anything else and I'll have the same feelings as last year.... disinterested

[shiznak]

Kesler WILL NOT be traded unless the value back is tremendous. Linden and Benning say they want to contend next year? Well good luck doing that without a high end two way center. Eddie Lack is not Roberto Loungo. He will get lit up without Kesler playing d. Don't move a major piece unless you can cover for it. If Linden and Benning want to contend next year, mark my words. Kes stays

His "high end two-way abilities" didn't even get us into the playoffs this year, when the team needed him the most. (Had a whomping 5 points, after the Olympics)

[Twilight Sparkle]

Fan loyalty means nothing on CDC, only a what have you done for me lately attitude. No wonder the Canucks have never won a Cup. Karma's a b@#ch! Kesler's value was highest at the end of 2011 and I highly doubt many would have entertained trading him then like they are demanding now. Personally, I'm fine with him staying especially if he wants to be here which is something CDC seems to forget in that this franchise history has shown it is an unattractive market for players.

Kesler said he wants to play here so naturally let's get rid of him for players and prospects that'll likely bolt first chance they get. I am really glad no one on CDC runs this team or we'd never get out of the basement in the NHL rather than the mediocre one with a few bright years that we have had.

Many accuse the Canucks players as being entitled but it's nowhere near the level of the fanbase.

welcome to cdc-- where everyone here knows more than the people who work in the league

[alfstonker]

Kesler was never the problem imo.

The problems were highlighted in Benning's interview. We have never operated 4 physically effective lines that also moved the scoreboard.

I remember feeling sorry for Kesler in the Boston series, he was the only forward taking Boston on physically in any consistent way.

We paired him with Booth who then and for the next 2 years was either playing for himself or injured. Raymond was also injured and took a lot longer than any of us realised to become effective and even then he had no physical presence.

If Kesler indicates a willingness to stay I think Benning will get him an effective partner, Stastny or Marleau or someone like that who can put up points while they feed and take some of the physical load off him. His other partner will likely be Jensen or Kassian.

[Toyotasfan]

If you can get Kessler to play the role of shutdown centre against other teams top lines first and only play offence when he creates turnovers he is one of the best and that's the reason he won the Selke. Unfortunately our first line disappears from time to time and Kessler tries to do to much. Put him playing his role on the second line behind a BONEFIED front line and he is invaluable. But we need a better first line more than anything.

[SamJamIam]

Fudge I can't go through another season with the "core"

Sedin-Sedin-Burrows

Higgins-Kesler-Kassian

Booth-Matthias-Hansen

Sestito-Richardson-Lain/Archie

Edler-Bieksa

Hamhuis-Garrison

Stanton-Tanev

PUKEEEEEE

I'm really looking for them to move two of (Kesler, Higgins, Hansen, Burrows) and 1 of (Bieksa, Garrison, Edler)

Anything else and I'll have the same feelings as last year.... disinterested

Sorry to digress for a moment, but I was actually looking at defensemen advanced stats. I found some interesting info about them and then I'll mention how Kes fits into all this.

On Defense

Honestly, I don't think a lot of creativity has been applied to the line combinations from Torts or AV. Despite having the same core, some very obvious combinations have not been given much of a chance. And weirdly, these seem like the best ones when you see the players taking on more natural roles on international teams. For example:

Garrison-Bieksa

Edler-Hamhuis

Stanton-Tanev

Anyone watching the World Championship this year has seen how shockingly good the Garrison Bieksa combo is. Garrison stays at home, can man the point, and blast slappers from his proper left side. Bieksa can roam to lay an open ice hit and create turnovers, pinch and carry the puck. I decided to look at WOWY numbers from Extra Skater for the last 2 years, and apparently this has always been the case(!)

5on5 Close GoalsFor% and CorsiFor% for Garrison are BY FAR their highest with Bieksa (this is corrected for competition quality and zone starts as well for those wondering). Bieksa makes Garrison look downright good in the NHL. Last year Garrison had an abysmal 44.1% GF%. With Bieksa? 66.7%

Then I took a look at Bieksa's WOWYs. I was absolutely blown away by what I found. Garrison is actually a WAY better partner for Bieksa than even Hamhuis! GF% for Bieksa with Garrison last year was 66.7% (as above). Without him? 55.2%! Despite all this, the pairing saw very limited ice time and probably would have seen none at all except there were injuries which forced Torts and AV to mix and match. Clearly their success on international ice isn't coincidence.

Edler was also MUCH better on Team Sweden when he was able to carry the puck and had a proper stay at home partner. Oddly, the obvious answer of pairing him with Hammer gave VERY poor results (GF% 30). Perhaps this is because one of them was forced to play on their off side and if it was consistently one of them there may be a case for switching their sides. If both have been tried, then the obvious answer is Tanev, who has some of his highest GF% and CF% with Edler.

Basically it's like our entire defense has been playing with the wrong sided sticks for the past two years. They all have shown the potential to play exceptionally well. Despite the claims that Salo and Ehrhoff were the key pieces holding the Canucks D together, it's actually AV's failure to adapt after those players left which jammed defensemen into roles they weren't meant for. Torts just kept that trend going. If Linden and Benning hire a coach with half a brain (or perhaps Benning already looked at them himself and thus knows a bounce back is not difficult), these pairings should become a regular occurrence.

Kesler

When looking at WOWY's for all these defensemen, one name stuck out and that is Ryan Kesler. The first line's numbers were regularly the best for both goals for and chances for, even last year when the first line was hardly scoring that much at all. However the player who was able to replicate and sometimes surpass the 1st line's possession numbers was Kesler, but NOT his linemates. The man is doing for possession what our first liners do, only without help. Nuff said.

TL;DR: FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, DON'T TRADE KESLER AND DON'T TRADE OUR D-MEN!

Side note: the WOWYs show a very definite across-the-board drop in scoring. It's like everyone's production was halved, regardless of their linemates. Guaranteed that scaling factor was Tortorella's system destroying the team's transition game. However, there are still clearly improvements to be made by fielding different lines. It's clear that despite Tortorella's system being quite awful, the WOWYs bear out that certain line pairings which were absolutely dominant (and I would argue essential to our success on defense) were not used under AV either. Both coaches were guilty of poor line decisions (no surprise there), but the degree to which this is the case is mind-blowing.

-Edited for spelling and table formatting

[Warhippy]

Yeah, I'll take Linden and Benning's opinion over yours. I'm thinking they know just a little bit more than you do regarding the team and players. Thanks.

cute.

Now tell me who will play on our top line and 2nd line to help Kesler reach that one year season he had add then tell us how again we will pay for such premiere athletes on those lines.

They do know more than me. But they're smart enough to know enough to not hold on to a diminishing value asset and dump money into it either.

[Warhippy]

Fudge I can't go through another season with the "core"

Sedin-Sedin-Burrows

Higgins-Kesler-Kassian

Booth-Matthias-Hansen

Sestito-Richardson-Lain/Archie

Edler-Bieksa

Hamhuis-Garrison

Stanton-Tanev

PUKEEEEEE

I'm really looking for them to move two of (Kesler, Higgins, Hansen, Burrows) and 1 of (Bieksa, Garrison, Edler)

Anything else and I'll have the same feelings as last year.... disinterested

but but but if you keep smashing your face against a wall eventually SOMETHING will change right?

[Tearloch7]

but but but if you keep smashing your face against a wall eventually SOMETHING will change right?

Yes son .. yer nose! ..

[nuckster33]

If we keep Kesler we need to sign a player with the talent of Stastny to help him.

I am not a Kesler hater, I actually think there as just been too much pressure on him to do EVERYTHING...

He is beat on more than the Sedins when things aren't going right for some reason, people do expect him to hit 70pts, crash, bang, and be a selke player.

One thing to note those selke candidates (Toews, Datsyuk, Bergeron) dont bring the physical game he does, that can create alot of minor/major injuries.

I believe if we keep Kes, we need:

1. A playmaking center who can potentially play the wing depending on where we want Kes to play

2. A big winger who has hands and hits and takes some of the physical pressure off him

[Jack Fig]

His value to the team isn't close to his value in a trade hence why you shop him provided he waives, it's best for everybody.

That's the bottom line. I just don't want Linden, Benning or anyone else getting caught up in the idea that we must make the playoffs next year. It's not very relevant. But what is relevant is acquiring young assets to move forward with. We need real building blocks as opposed to keeping older players only to struggle to make the playoffs, which is what keeping Kesler and others represents.

[Warhippy]

If we keep Kesler we need to sign a player with the talent of Stastny to help him.

I am not a Kesler hater, I actually think there as just been too much pressure on him to do EVERYTHING...

He is beat on more than the Sedins when things aren't going right for some reason, people do expect him to hit 70pts, crash, bang, and be a selke player.

One thing to note those selke candidates (Toews, Datsyuk, Bergeron) dont bring the physical game he does, that can create alot of minor/major injuries.

I believe if we keep Kes, we need:

1. A playmaking center who can potentially play the wing depending on where we want Kes to play

2. A big winger who has hands and hits and takes some of the physical pressure off him

The issue though is that we need both of those and STILL need a puck moving dman.

The expense of acquiring all that would kill this teams depth

[Warhippy]

That's the bottom line. I just don't want Linden, Benning or anyone else getting caught up in the idea that we must make the playoffs next year. It's not very relevant. But what is relevant is acquiring young assets to move forward with. We need real building blocks as opposed to keeping older players only to struggle to make the playoffs, which is what keeping Kesler and others represents.

This exactly.

New management new coach old core....building for the future.

We can sell now and compete next year. Or we can buy now and spin pure wheels for years.

Rather this new management group take their time and put their stamp on the team

[nuckster33]

The issue though is that we need both of those and STILL need a puck moving dman.

The expense of acquiring all that would kill this teams depth

Sign Stastny

Move Edler

[Jack Fig]

This exactly.

New management new coach old core....building for the future.

We can sell now and compete next year. Or we can buy now and spin pure wheels for years.

Rather this new management group take their time and put their stamp on the team

Additionally, I always get a laugh from people who opine how irreplaceable Kesler is. Irreplaceable on a team who has won 1 playoff game in 3 seasons? What would the loss of him be in real terms? Kesler has 2 years left on his current contract...by the time the Canucks are a good team again, he will be long gone. There's no downside to expediting that process, IMO.

[Warhippy]

Additionally, I always get a laugh from people who opine how irreplaceable Kesler is. Irreplaceable on a team who has won 1 playoff game in 3 seasons? What would the loss of him be in real terms? Kesler has 2 years left on his current contract...by the time the Canucks are a good team again, he will be long gone. There's no downside to expediting that process, IMO.

I wanted to trade Kesler myself after 2011.

We are moving forward, we need to lose 1 or 2 pieces of our top 9 forwards and at least one of our top 4 D.

This will allow us to get younger, faster and will basically be a rebuild done in 2 short seasons like Montreal or Tampa.

Kesler is our ONLY valuable trade piece in the forward group, anyone else is part of a package deal which will mean losing picks/prospects along with them which is in reality a sideways step at best but truthfully more of a step backwards as we'd be losing a lot of our depth and prospects or picks.

Or as I said again we can go out and find a bona fide top 6 scoring threat and a genuine top 6 play maker to play with kesler and the twins, while STILL needing to find a puck moving D man.

Which in reality would gut this teams depth and our prospects, push us to the cap and basically leave us in this exact same position in 2 seasons when Kesler is looking for more money or to leave for another team as a UFA.

We don't get better by maintaining the status quo, we are not the Blues, hawks, Bruins, Kings, Bolts, Rangers or the like. We are not young enough deep enough or fast enough to even pretend we are and just obtaining more pieces without subtracting them is just slapping bandaids over bandaids hoping for the best.

Kesler as a top line winger with the twins would be great...but honestly he was beyond ineffective for large parts of last season and btaining 2/3rds of a 2nd line would gut us.

Time to see the forest from the trees, 2 of our top 9 forwards and one of our top 4 d need to be moved.

[gjoseph89]

Like Torts said, it's not 2011. People need to forget he earned the Selke, that was years ago. We can't keep every player that did something good once upon a time. His selfish play, his declining play, and the simple fact he isn't what he used to be means we need to trade him now while we still can get good return. It's better to do it now while we get good return before his play declines further and we have to bundle other things to get good return.

Torts is off his rockers but he is right about this. We can't keep these guys forever. If we can get something for them while there stock is high, when are you guys gonna get on board with this? We need change cause this isn't 2011 and the game is forever changing. Lets wake up and get fresh faces on our team along with all the other new management. The vets we have can benefit a cup contending team who needs depth. We need a reset button and you can't keep players from 2011 and expect the same result.

[gjoseph89]

I wanted to trade Kesler myself after 2011.

We are moving forward, we need to lose 1 or 2 pieces of our top 9 forwards and at least one of our top 4 D.

This will allow us to get younger, faster and will basically be a rebuild done in 2 short seasons like Montreal or Tampa.

Kesler is our ONLY valuable trade piece in the forward group, anyone else is part of a package deal which will mean losing picks/prospects along with them which is in reality a sideways step at best but truthfully more of a step backwards as we'd be losing a lot of our depth and prospects or picks.

Or as I said again we can go out and find a bona fide top 6 scoring threat and a genuine top 6 play maker to play with kesler and the twins, while STILL needing to find a puck moving D man.

Which in reality would gut this teams depth and our prospects, push us to the cap and basically leave us in this exact same position in 2 seasons when Kesler is looking for more money or to leave for another team as a UFA.

We don't get better by maintaining the status quo, we are not the Blues, hawks, Bruins, Kings, Bolts, Rangers or the like. We are not young enough deep enough or fast enough to even pretend we are and just obtaining more pieces without subtracting them is just slapping bandaids over bandaids hoping for the best.

Kesler as a top line winger with the twins would be great...but honestly he was beyond ineffective for large parts of last season and btaining 2/3rds of a 2nd line would gut us.

Time to see the forest from the trees, 2 of our top 9 forwards and one of our top 4 d need to be moved.

I keep telling my friends and family this but they think i am not a true fan. We had our kick at the can with these guys and we failed. Time to try something new and get back as much new talent for aging vets. I am not crazy but if we keep these guys we are doomed in a couple of years. If we start over right now, we can be back in a few years. Draft day is gonna be so much fun if the unload of our vets begins. Please Benning just go with it and make the deals, you know you want to. We will understand, its business.

[Gyllenhaal]

I think if Kes wanted to stay Linden and Benning would have already said that he won't be traded. I think Kesler will waive his NTC if they ask but isn't asking for a trade.

[combover]

I'm sick of Kesler's selfish play and would like to see him gone.

wow. so then we have no (NHL) second line center. we lose depth at position we are extremely thin on at the nhl level and we need to trade him and get a crappier second line center back. that makes sense. none of the prospects are even close to capable of doing the things kes does on a nightly basis. if he wants out then fine trade him but don't think trading him makes this team better and when the nucks get prospects in return remember they are what they are PROSPECTS not everyone turns out to be the players they are in junior at then nhl level.