Jake Virtanen | #18 | RW

[aGENT]

Indeed Nergish.

[DownUndaCanuck]

"Blaming" the coach in this case is quite easy because:

 

A) He's made questionnable and downright stupid line up decisions frequently in his short tenure here.  Overplaying Sbisa and Bieksa, playing Prust and Dorsett 16 minutes a night, converting a natural centre (Sutter) into a winger while refusing to play a natural winger (Vrbata) in that role.  It goes on and on.  His deployment of Virtanen merely continues that trend.

 

Virtanen has played well when given the opportunity.  Almost scored in his first game (if Sutter could make a simple 10 foot pass), huge hit to spring Baertschi on a breakaway in his 2nd or 3rd (that he flubbed), was part of a heavy forecheck that led to Bartowski's goal.  His line consistently outshoots the opposing lines, hasn't been on for a goal yet so far as i know, and hasn't made the "big mistake" plays that McCann has.  Yet despite a good start (and despite sitting the first 4 games) he sees his ice time get reduced each time.  And not only reduced, but so sporadic that his legs are practically ice cold by the time he gets another shift.

 

If you give a line 7 minutes a night, then your expectations have to be aligned with what a 7-minute-a-night line is capable of.  Focus on defense, chip pucks deep, throw some hits, win some zone time.  Producing offense is not a fair expectation from a 7-minute-a-night line.  If you want offense, then a line needs enough shifts (and in regular rotation) for the players to get into an offensive rhythm.

 

This is what Winnipeg has done with Ehlers and the results have been predictable.  This is not what Willie has done with Jake or McCann and the results have been predictable.  Expecting anything different is puzzling tbh.

A) Down-right stupid? Firstly, WD brought this team back from the bottom of the NHL standings to the playoffs again. Sure, most coaches could have done that after the Tortorella stint, but give credit where credit is due. He revived the Sedins, Edler and our veterans careers when they all could have taken a turn for the worst. Overplaying Sbisa and Bieksa? Who else was he supposed to play? WD didn't really have the deepest defence in the league, and was handcuffed having to play Weber as a top-4 guy last year because we simply didn't have anyone else. You expect him to play Edler and Tanev 30 minutes a night? WD handled the defence brilliantly last season because we just had zero quality or quantity on the blueline.

Prust and Dorsett are playing 16 minutes a night because they've bloody well earned it. I was skeptical about both of them coming into the season and I admit that I ripped Benning for bringing in two grinders who can't score into a team already lacking skill. They've done nothing but impress me with their hard work ethic and forechecking every single shift, and that's why they're getting big minutes. Their consistency and work ethic is something the kids like McCann, Baertschi, Shinkaruk and especially Virtanen need to learn from. I'd rather have Prust on the ice forechecking hard and generating turn overs than see Virtanen skate around for a big hit and stay well away from the puck. Prust and Dorsett have been the life-lines of this team so far, so don't criticize a coach for playing them too much. Any coach in the NHL would.

And you think moving Sutter to the wing was a bad choice? Not many people envisioned that move, Sutter starts the season on the wing and what happens? He scores a handful of goals and leads our team in points. Give WD all the credit in the world for that one, he's found another way to deploy our 2nd line center and it gives us a lot of options. Moving a big, right handed young guy with a great shot up with the Sedins makes sense and now with Vbrata playing well we've got a lot of options to shake things up during droughts. Sutter with the Sedins was a brilliant move, how can you possibly criticize that?

 

Based on that, I'd trust our coach Desjardins over your judgement any day. That's why guys like Prust and Dorsett are playing 16 minutes, McCann is essentially our 3rd line center and Virtanen is on the bench in the 3rd period. The main problem is consistent effort and skill. McCann is consistently showing skill, Prust and Dorsett are consistently showing good forechecking and effort, and Virtanen is showing none of it. He's not consistently hitting, he's never around the puck ON THE SHIFTS HE PLAYS and he's not showing any offensive talent whatsoever. The kid gets his chances, he gets his shifts early on in the game and he simply doesn't do anything with it. Don't blame him for playing 7 minutes and not producing offence. If he can't play with consistent effort, hit or score in his first periods worth of shifts then why does he deserve to get more than 7 minutes a night when there are plenty of other guys on this team who can play better?

[uselessstats]

 

A) Down-right stupid? Firstly, WD brought this team back from the bottom of the NHL standings to the playoffs again. Sure, most coaches could have done that after the Tortorella stint, but give credit where credit is due. He revived the Sedins, Edler and our veterans careers when they all could have taken a turn for the worst. Overplaying Sbisa and Bieksa? Who else was he supposed to play? WD didn't really have the deepest defence in the league, and was handcuffed having to play Weber as a top-4 guy last year because we simply didn't have anyone else. You expect him to play Edler and Tanev 30 minutes a night? WD handled the defence brilliantly last season because we just had zero quality or quantity on the blueline.

Prust and Dorsett are playing 16 minutes a night because they've bloody well earned it. I was skeptical about both of them coming into the season and I admit that I ripped Benning for bringing in two grinders who can't score into a team already lacking skill. They've done nothing but impress me with their hard work ethic and forechecking every single shift, and that's why they're getting big minutes. Their consistency and work ethic is something the kids like McCann, Baertschi, Shinkaruk and especially Virtanen need to learn from. I'd rather have Prust on the ice forechecking hard and generating turn overs than see Virtanen skate around for a big hit and stay well away from the puck. Prust and Dorsett have been the life-lines of this team so far, so don't criticize a coach for playing them too much. Any coach in the NHL would.

And you think moving Sutter to the wing was a bad choice? Not many people envisioned that move, Sutter starts the season on the wing and what happens? He scores a handful of goals and leads our team in points. Give WD all the credit in the world for that one, he's found another way to deploy our 2nd line center and it gives us a lot of options. Moving a big, right handed young guy with a great shot up with the Sedins makes sense and now with Vbrata playing well we've got a lot of options to shake things up during droughts. Sutter with the Sedins was a brilliant move, how can you possibly criticize that?

 

Based on that, I'd trust our coach Desjardins over your judgement any day. That's why guys like Prust and Dorsett are playing 16 minutes, McCann is essentially our 3rd line center and Virtanen is on the bench in the 3rd period. The main problem is consistent effort and skill. McCann is consistently showing skill, Prust and Dorsett are consistently showing good forechecking and effort, and Virtanen is showing none of it. He's not consistently hitting, he's never around the puck ON THE SHIFTS HE PLAYS and he's not showing any offensive talent whatsoever. The kid gets his chances, he gets his shifts early on in the game and he simply doesn't do anything with it. Don't blame him for playing 7 minutes and not producing offence. If he can't play with consistent effort, hit or score in his first periods worth of shifts then why does he deserve to get more than 7 minutes a night when there are plenty of other guys on this team who can play better?

what a ridiculous post.  So according to you it's reasonable to crap on a 19 year old kid playing his first 4 NHL games because he hasn't scored or had frequent scoring chances in 7-9 minutes of ice time but you extol the play of a pair of NHL vets who also don't score or create their own chances in 2x as much ice time.  

Looks like you and Willie are both suckers for players skate around and try their best to hit and pin the puck on the boards and look like they're working oh-so-hard yet accomplish exactly the same thing Virtanen has.  Actually I'm wrong, they do one thing better than Virtanen, and that's get scored on.  So ya, what a great use of 16 minutes a night.  No wonder we keeping winning all these games late in the third and overtime with such quality vets leading the way for us.

 

edit:  Here's Dorsett's vitals so far this year just so you can soak in his awesomeness:

- 1 point in 8 games (an EN goal),

- has been outscored 5-0 when he's on the ice,

- has a 42% Corsi (worst on the team).

 

what a beauty!!

 

Edited October 27, 2015 by uselessstats

[guntrix]

"Blaming" the coach in this case is quite easy because:

 

A) He's made questionnable and downright stupid line up decisions frequently in his short tenure here.  Overplaying Sbisa and Bieksa, playing Prust and Dorsett 16 minutes a night, converting a natural centre (Sutter) into a winger while refusing to play a natural winger (Vrbata) in that role.  It goes on and on.  His deployment of Virtanen merely continues that trend.

 

Virtanen has played well when given the opportunity.  Almost scored in his first game (if Sutter could make a simple 10 foot pass), huge hit to spring Baertschi on a breakaway in his 2nd or 3rd (that he flubbed), was part of a heavy forecheck that led to Bartowski's goal.  His line consistently outshoots the opposing lines, hasn't been on for a goal yet so far as i know, and hasn't made the "big mistake" plays that McCann has.  Yet despite a good start (and despite sitting the first 4 games) he sees his ice time get reduced each time.  And not only reduced, but so sporadic that his legs are practically ice cold by the time he gets another shift.

 

If you give a line 7 minutes a night, then your expectations have to be aligned with what a 7-minute-a-night line is capable of.  Focus on defense, chip pucks deep, throw some hits, win some zone time.  Producing offense is not a fair expectation from a 7-minute-a-night line.  If you want offense, then a line needs enough shifts (and in regular rotation) for the players to get into an offensive rhythm.

 

This is what Winnipeg has done with Ehlers and the results have been predictable.  This is not what Willie has done with Jake or McCann and the results have been predictable.  Expecting anything different is puzzling tbh.

"played well"

"Almost"

Are we supposed to give him a blue ribbon for participation now? You're a winner as long as you try, right? Or so I was told in kindergarten...

Willie's use of JV is aligned with JV's performance. The guy has not played well enough to warrant an increase in ice time. It's that simple. I'd have a beef with Willie if he ignored all logic and played JV more despite his lackadaisical play. 

Ehlers is getting more ice time because he's actually producing. You're comparing apples to oranges here. As Willie said it himself, “It’s not the try league, it’s the get-it-done league.”

Yes, JV may throw the body and he may like to shoot the puck (albeit right at the goalie's chest) but he has to produce to warrant ice time. It's always been that way and always will be.

CDC has always knocked Ehlers fans for being way too fanboyish but all I see right now is one side solidifying their claims with stats and the other trying to fool themselves with promises of potential and JV's imposing body type. Wake up. 

[guntrix]

what a ridiculous post.  So according to you it's reasonable to crap on a 19 year old kid playing his first 4 NHL games because he hasn't scored or had frequent scoring chances in 7-9 minutes of ice time but you extol the play of a pair of NHL vets who also don't score or create their own chances in 2x as much ice time.  

Looks like you and Willie are both suckers for players skate around and try their best to hit and pin the puck on the boards and look like they're working oh-so-hard yet accomplish exactly the same thing Virtanen has.  Actually I'm wrong, they do one thing better than Virtanen, and that's get scored on.  So ya, what a great use of 16 minutes a night.  No wonder we keeping winning all these games late in the third and overtime with such quality vets leading the way for us.

 

edit:  Here's Dorsett's vitals so far this year just so you can soak in his awesomeness:

- 1 point in 8 games (an EN goal),

- has been outscored 5-0 when he's on the ice,

- has a 42% Corsi (worst on the team).

 

what a beauty!!

 

Dorsett is a fringe NHLer for a reason. JV was drafted 5th overall.

It's insane to even compare the two.

[hatedkid666]

Hostile environment in this thread

[uselessstats]

"played well"

"Almost"

Are we supposed to give him a blue ribbon for participation now? You're a winner as long as you try, right? Or so I was told in kindergarten...

Willie's use of JV is aligned with JV's performance. The guy has not played well enough to warrant an increase in ice time. It's that simple. I'd have a beef with Willie if he ignored all logic and played JV more despite his lackadaisical play. 

Ehlers is getting more ice time because he's actually producing. You're comparing apples to oranges here. As Willie said it himself, “It’s not the try league, it’s the get-it-done league.”

Yes, JV may throw the body and he may like to shoot the puck (albeit right at the goalie's chest) but he has to produce to warrant ice time. It's always been that way and always will be.

CDC has always knocked Ehlers fans for being way too fanboyish but all I see right now is one side solidifying their claims with stats and the other trying to fool themselves with promises of potential and JV's imposing body type. Wake up. 

ya?  So Ehlers got 8 minutes of ice time in Game 1 and played so well his coach bumped him up to 14-15?

 

Or did they decide to give the kid - an offensive talent whom they invested a 9th OA pick in - a good dose of ice time right off the hop to see what he could do?

Jake hasn't played more than 9 minutes in any game.  Go listen to Ray Ferraro on 1040 today talk about how sitting for 10-12 minutes takes a player out of the game and their offensive rhythm.

But what would he know right?  You armchair coaches have so much more insight with your whining that Jake hasn't scored a goal in his 8 minutes a night.  Much better to give him $&!# minutes and stunt his development rather than give the kid a decent chance right?  I mean it's just a 6th overall pick, why worry about ruining him by playing awesome players like Dorsett 16 minutes instead?

 

Genius stuff guys, genius.

 

 

[DownUndaCanuck]

Hostile environment in this thread

I guess that's what happens when a team blows their highest pick in years and everyone is too blind to realize it until reality hits them in the face when the guys taken right after him are playing miles better.

As much as I love Ehlers and Nylander having greater success and saying "I told you so", this is a bad situation we're in and WD and Benning have to make the most of this monstrous mistake.

Send Virtanen down to junior, get his offence up to scratch and develop him SLOWLY. He's not going to break into the NHL like everyone wished and is nowhere near as talented as Ehlers to do so. We're going to have to be very patient with Virtanen, he's our guy now so lets groom him properly. One year back in junior, then half a season at the very least in the AHL. The kid has so much growing to do before he can even consider playing a full NHL season and we better not break him. Even Toronto aren't stupid enough anymore to ruin the gem they have in Nylander.

[uselessstats]

Dorsett is a fringe NHLer for a reason. JV was drafted 5th overall.

It's insane to even compare the two.

I never compared them.  I questioned why Desjardins would give a "fringe NHLer" 16 minutes a night to let a 19 year old kid rot in the bench.

 

If Willie doesn't think Jake can contribute, then fine, return him to the Hitmen then.  No hard feelings from me.  But to sit him for 4 games then barely play him in the next four is asinine.  Make a &^@#ing decision to play the kid or return him.  It's honesty not that hard to figure out.

[guntrix]

ya?  So Ehlers got 8 minutes of ice time in Game 1 and played so well his coach bumped him up to 14-15?

 

Or did they decide to give the kid - an offensive talent whom they invested a 9th OA pick in - a good dose of ice time right off the hop to see what he could do?

Jake hasn't played more than 9 minutes in any game.  Go listen to Ray Ferraro on 1040 today talk about how sitting for 10-12 minutes takes a player out of the game and their offensive rhythm.

But what would he know right?  You armchair coaches have so much more insight with your whining that Jake hasn't scored a goal in his 8 minutes a night.  Much better to give him $&!# minutes and stunt his development rather than give the kid a decent chance right?  I mean it's just a 6th overall pick, why worry about ruining him by playing awesome players like Dorsett 16 minutes instead?

 

Genius stuff guys, genius.

 

 

Armchair? You do realize that I'm the one agreeing with Willie right?

Armchair coaches are the guys who are posting in this thread saying how Willie is such a silly manager and how their proposals are so much better. It's obvious at this point that Virtanen is simply not ready for the NHL yet CDCers still somehow convince themselves that it's because of the minutes he gets.

 

I guess that's what happens when a team blows their highest pick in years and everyone is too blind to realize it until reality hits them in the face when the guys taken right after him are playing miles better.

As much as I love Ehlers and Nylander having greater success and saying "I told you so", this is a bad situation we're in and WD and Benning have to make the most of this monstrous mistake.

Send Virtanen down to junior, get his offence up to scratch and develop him SLOWLY. He's not going to break into the NHL like everyone wished and is nowhere near as talented as Ehlers to do so. We're going to have to be very patient with Virtanen, he's our guy now so lets groom him properly. One year back in junior, then half a season at the very least in the AHL. The kid has so much growing to do before he can even consider playing a full NHL season and we better not break him. Even Toronto aren't stupid enough anymore to ruin the gem they have in Nylander.

Weird, I completely agree with this post.

I feel like people here are slowly realizing that maybe JB didn't pick the BPA. They won't admit it now but they will soon enough.

The whole "his physicality suits our needs" will wear off just like it did with Kassian.

[Alflives]

I never compared them.  I questioned why Desjardins would give a "fringe NHLer" 16 minutes a night to let a 19 year old kid rot in the bench.

 

If Willie doesn't think Jake can contribute, then fine, return him to the Hitmen then.  No hard feelings from me.  But to sit him for 4 games then barely play him in the next four is asinine.  Make a &^@#ing decision to play the kid or return him.  It's honesty not that hard to figure out.

this sounds like the Horvat conversation from last season around this time.  Jake will be fine.

[uselessstats]

Armchair? You do realize that I'm the one agreeing with Willie right?

Armchair coaches are the guys who are posting in this thread saying how Willie is such a silly manager and how their proposals are so much better. It's obvious at this point that Virtanen is simply not ready for the NHL yet CDCers still somehow convince themselves that it's because of the minutes he gets.

 

Weird, I completely agree with this post.

I feel like people here are slowly realizing that maybe JB didn't pick the BPA. They won't admit it now but they will soon enough.

The whole "his physicality suits our needs" will wear off just like it did with Kassian.

you seem more interested in being proven "right" about the Virtanen pick rather than actually developing the player we have.  

We didn't draft Ehlers or Nylander.  Boo hoo.  Grab a tissue and get over it.  The player we did draft could still help us out someday if the coach puts a little bit of thought into how he handles this kid and realizes that no player can be offensively effective in 7-8 minutes a night.  

 

Like I said, if Willie really thinks Jake is playing so badly that he can't even let him on the ice for more than 3 minutes a period then there is a simple solution available to him.  Get up out of his seat tomorrow morning, walk down the hall to Benning's office, and tell him to return the kid to junior because you don't trust him on the ice.

 

Problem solved.

 

But don't waste his prime development years and erode his confidence by refusing to play him even minimal NHL minutes.  That isn't going to help Jake and it isn't going to help this team.  Oh ya and it still isn't going to make Ehlers and Nylander Canucks either.

[uselessstats]

this sounds like the Horvat conversation from last season around this time.  Jake will be fine.

While I appreciate your optimism, Bo was a different player than Jake and you can't expect the same outcome just because it worked for Bo.

Go look at Nino Neiderrieter's first year with the Islanders and what a mess they made of his development by playing him low minutes at the bottom of the line up.  He's rebounded somewhat now but they messed up his offensive development so much that they ended up dumping him for next to nothing.

 

Im not saying Jake should be gifted top 6 minutes and a spot on the PP.  but if you are going to keep him on the NHL club instead of return him to junior then give the kid 9-12 minutes a night and - more importantly - don't make the kid sit 10-15 minutes between shifts.

 

Either trust him enough to play him or get him back to junior.  Seems pretty obvious to me.

Edited October 27, 2015 by uselessstats

[guntrix]

you seem more interested in being proven "right" about the Virtanen pick rather than actually developing the player we have.  

We didn't draft Ehlers or Nylander.  Boo hoo.  Grab a tissue and get over it.  The player we did draft could still help us out someday if the coach puts a little bit of thought into how he handles this kid and realizes that no player can be offensively effective in 7-8 minutes a night.  

 

Like I said, if Willie really thinks Jake is playing so badly that he can't even let him on the ice for more than 3 minutes a period then there is a simple solution available to him.  Get up out of his seat tomorrow morning, walk down the hall to Benning's office, and tell him to return the kid to junior because you don't trust him on the ice.

 

Problem solved.

 

But don't waste his prime development years and erode his confidence by refusing to play him even minimal NHL minutes.  That isn't going to help Jake and it isn't going to help this team.  Oh ya and it still isn't going to make Ehlers and Nylander Canucks either.

I started posting in this thread yesterday because I was responding to a poster who said that "Ehlers would have never made it here." It's flat out delusion to mask the fact that we picked the wrong guy.

Now, I'd love nothing more than for JV to succeed here but CDC has to take down their expectations of him a few notches. 

I'll bet my account that he'll never be a first line player and we'll be lucky to see him be a second line mainstay. I hope for the welfare of this franchise that he rounds out to be a top six forward.

Edited October 27, 2015 by guntrix

[ice orca]

ya?  So Ehlers got 8 minutes of ice time in Game 1 and played so well his coach bumped him up to 14-15?

 

Or did they decide to give the kid - an offensive talent whom they invested a 9th OA pick in - a good dose of ice time right off the hop to see what he could do?

Jake hasn't played more than 9 minutes in any game.  Go listen to Ray Ferraro on 1040 today talk about how sitting for 10-12 minutes takes a player out of the game and their offensive rhythm.

But what would he know right?  You armchair coaches have so much more insight with your whining that Jake hasn't scored a goal in his 8 minutes a night.  Much better to give him $&!# minutes and stunt his development rather than give the kid a decent chance right?  I mean it's just a 6th overall pick, why worry about ruining him by playing awesome players like Dorsett 16 minutes instead?

 

Genius stuff guys, genius.

 

 

McCann has played good with the Dorsett and Prust 4th line, in fact he hasn't seen anything past the 3rd line. Virtanen has been given 2nd line minutes with Horvat and Baer who have a ton more skill than Dorsett or Prust. It's up to Jake to figure it out not have every body else figure it out for him.

[DownUndaCanuck]

 

Weird, I completely agree with this post.

I feel like people here are slowly realizing that maybe JB didn't pick the BPA. They won't admit it now but they will soon enough.

The whole "his physicality suits our needs" will wear off just like it did with Kassian.

Exactly. Look around the league, everyone's getting younger, faster and more SKILLED. Jake is a nice physical asset to have on our team, but with the 6th overall we should have taken someone with that elusive elite offensive ability.

The way of the big hitting powerforwards having success in the playoffs is gone. We're 3 years behind the trend, and it's not too hard to see that the league is trending to a more offensive, fast-paced, skilled game. Look what's happening to the big grinding teams like the Bruins and Ducks, and meanwhile look how good the skilled offensive Lightning, Canadiens, Blackhawks and Stars are doing. A lot can change until now and the playoffs, but I think we're going to see another pair of offensive-first teams in the Stanley Cup Finals, not a bunch of powerforwards and grinders.

[uselessstats]

I guess that's what happens when a team blows their highest pick in years and everyone is too blind to realize it until reality hits them in the face when the guys taken right after him are playing miles better.

As much as I love Ehlers and Nylander having greater success and saying "I told you so", this is a bad situation we're in and WD and Benning have to make the most of this monstrous mistake.

Send Virtanen down to junior, get his offence up to scratch and develop him SLOWLY. He's not going to break into the NHL like everyone wished and is nowhere near as talented as Ehlers to do so. We're going to have to be very patient with Virtanen, he's our guy now so lets groom him properly. One year back in junior, then half a season at the very least in the AHL. The kid has so much growing to do before he can even consider playing a full NHL season and we better not break him. Even Toronto aren't stupid enough anymore to ruin the gem they have in Nylander.

Missed you posting this earlier but I actually agree with this.  If he isn't ready - which Willie's use of him suggests he isn't in the coaches eyes - then just return the kid.  No one has ever been harmed by slow cooking in junior or the minors, so why the decision to keep him up but then barely play him?  It's stupid and risks messing up the development of a kid that we badly need to develop properly.

 

That's the crux of my frustration with WD.

[uselessstats]

McCann has played good with the Dorsett and Prust 4th line, in fact he hasn't seen anything past the 3rd line. Virtanen has been given 2nd line minutes with Horvat and Baer who have a ton more skill than Dorsett or Prust. It's up to Jake to figure it out not have every body else figure it out for him.

You're confusing line mates with minutes.  Jake hasn't had 2nd line minutes, Dorsett and Prust have.  It makes a big difference mate.

Edited October 27, 2015 by uselessstats

[DownUndaCanuck]

Missed you posting this earlier but I actually agree with this.  If he isn't ready - which Willie's use of him suggests he isn't in the coaches eyes - then just return the kid.  No one has ever been harmed by slow cooking in junior or the minors, so why the decision to keep him up but then barely play him?  It's stupid and risks messing up the development of a kid that we badly need to develop properly.

 

That's the crux of my frustration with WD.

I suppose there's no harm in keeping him for his 9 game stint. WD is giving him a massive opportunity playing on our 2nd line for the next game. However, he clearly isn't ready for the big league. If the Canucks decide to keep him around for the entire season they'll be making the 2nd biggest mistake possible.

Hopefully he can score a goal or two in his remaining games, take that confidence back to the WHL and score at 1.2-1.5 points per game over there.

[ice orca]

You're confusing line mates with minutes friend.  Jake hasn't had 2nd line minutes, Dorsett and Prust have.  It makes a big difference mate.

Other than the game against the Wings their minutes have been pretty close.