Ghostsof1915 Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 Why is the debacle that is the Arizona(Phoenix) Coyotes not over yet?!?! They've been through enough BS the last couple years from being owned by the league to being the laughing stock of the league.Finally when they seem to get their ducks in row with new ownership and a new brand(Arizona instead of Phoenix) but still their past comes back to bite them in the butt. If this turns into another pathetic power struggle over the team its only going to affect the team more negatively then it already has. I would love to see a team in Seattle or Quebec City as they both deserve teams. but seeing a team go through what the Coyotes have is just sad. I think the worst of this is, it shows how city and state politics can be very corrupt. A lot of stuff goes on behind the scenes we're not privy to. A lot of wheeling and dealing that doesn't get caught. Both Vancouver and Seattle didn't even have a chance to try and save their NBA teams. Unless you have a local owner with deep pockets, and even then. Look at the Whitecaps. They had a great concept for a waterfront stadium, and it got killed because some residents didn't want to have their housing prices effected. But it's ok to put bike lanes everywhere, but not spend money on transit and roads, and other solutions. Especially if it means improving the value of the Mayor's property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avelanch Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 HERE IT GOES, HERE IT GOES, HERE IT GOES AGAIN... girls! what's my weakness? MEN! specifically ones who hold secret meetings behind closed doors giving away all their negotiation powers by revealing all their cards and violate state laws so a third party can buy and enter into an agreement illegally just so the NHL can save face and not move a franchise out of a situation where they shouldn't be in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avelanch Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 I think Texas might actually have more professional hockey teams than the whole of Canada. not even close. You are mistaken with this assertion. The AHL would still be in Houston except for a couple of circumstances out Houston's control. The Wild controls the AHL team. The Wild intended to move the farm team to Iowa for closer proximity after the Stars moved their Iowa franchise to Cedar Park/Austin. Attendance was not the issue here. The Wild refused to negotiate with the city to keep the team there. An another poster is correct: There are more professional hockey teams in Texas than Canada. And the rivalry between Houston and Dallas is so great that it would fill seats. Thing is for most Canadians is that they have never been down here, they do not know what this city is like, and do not realize the amount of money that is here. Finally, a premium product draws a premium audience. The AHL is great, but it is not the NHL. that's not correct. there are 4 professional hockey teams currently playing in Texas: Allen Americans (Central Hockey League) Dallas Stars (NHL) San Antonio Rampage (AHL) Texas Stars (AHL) That's it. Junior A is NOT a professional league, but even if it were, there are still far more "professional" teams in canada than in texas. NHL (7) Calgary Edmonton Montreal Ottawa Toronto Vancouver Winnipeg AHL (3) Hamilton Toronto St. Johns CHL (1) Brampton Beast LNAH (8) Cornwall River Kings Jonquière Marquis Rivière-du-Loup 3L Saint-Georges Cool FM 103.5 Sorel-Tracy Éperviers Thetford Mines Isothermic Trois-Rivières Viking Laval Braves that's 19 genuine professional teams, Texas (even including the Junior A teams) doesn't come close to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avelanch Posted July 24, 2014 Share Posted July 24, 2014 Umm there is nothing wrong with my point. 1. Vancouver is not a basketball City = Phoenix is not a hockey town 2. This is proven by the fact Vancouver couldn't support a basketball team. If it were a basketball town, fans would have supported through lean years, this is common sense. The same holds for Phoenix as a hockey town. 3. If fans only support a team when they are winning, it is more of a place to be vs real lovers of the sport, fickleness tells us this, it is secondary or tertiary form of entertainment for most. 4. Not sure about your point on the GTA and Canadians being drafted, has nothing to do with my point. 5. You may be a big basketball fan but the majority of Vancouverites were not, as with Phoenix, this is why teams get into financial problems. Sorry but the facts speak for themselves. Phoenix is about to lose a team, and Vancouver already did, same issue - people don't go. Why don't people go? Because the sport is not supported. Why is it not supported because people are not big enough fans of the sport (there are not enough real fans vs. casually interested people to support the teams through challenges). Common sense...so no there is nothing wrong with my statement. In the case of the Grizzlies they never had a "fat" year, never mind yearS, to develop the proper fan base for it to stick through the "lean" years. But I agree, the vast majority of Vancouver doesn't care about basketball, and I really don't see them supporting a team if it were to come back, definitely not in the long term. It might have a couple decent years at the beginning when everything is new and shiny, but i don't see it lasting beyond 5 years, max, unless the team is routinely in the top 5 of the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johngould21 Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 In the case of the Grizzlies they never had a "fat" year, never mind yearS, to develop the proper fan base for it to stick through the "lean" years. But I agree, the vast majority of Vancouver doesn't care about basketball, and I really don't see them supporting a team if it were to come back, definitely not in the long term. It might have a couple decent years at the beginning when everything is new and shiny, but i don't see it lasting beyond 5 years, max, unless the team is routinely in the top 5 of the league. The vast majority of Vancouver, doesn't care about the attitude of the NBA players, is more how I see it. Some of the Grizzlies thought they had landed on the moon, when they came to Canada. Has that changed since the Grizzlies left? Maybe some, but the whole NBA is controlled by about 5 big markets, and all the rest are left to fight over the scraps. Is it any wonder, why it failed here? Hell they never won their 100th game until their second season in Memphis, pretty hard to support that through thick and thin. Stu Jackson as a GM, was the architect of that mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amish Rake Fighter Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 not even close. that's not correct. there are 4 professional hockey teams currently playing in Texas: Allen Americans (Central Hockey League) Dallas Stars (NHL) San Antonio Rampage (AHL) Texas Stars (AHL) That's it. Junior A is NOT a professional league, but even if it were, there are still far more "professional" teams in canada than in texas. NHL (7) Calgary Edmonton Montreal Ottawa Toronto Vancouver Winnipeg AHL (3) Hamilton Toronto St. Johns CHL (1) Brampton Beast LNAH (8) Cornwall River Kings Jonquière Marquis Rivière-du-Loup 3L Saint-Georges Cool FM 103.5 Sorel-Tracy Éperviers Thetford Mines Isothermic Trois-Rivières Viking Laval Braves that's 19 genuine professional teams, Texas (even including the Junior A teams) doesn't come close to that. I hadn't checked in a loooong while but, when the LNAH was founded, there was no Brampton Beast or Winnipeg Jets. And I'm not sure I'd call the LNAH a pro league, it's more of a circus with a Francophone player only rule. A buddy of mine played for the Laval Chiefs in the old QSPHL and all of his teammates worked outside playing hockey, it was more like the company league that Harold Druken was playing in in Newfoundland. Anyway, at that time, Texas had 1 NHL team in Dallas, 9 CHL teams in Laredo, Austin, Corpus Christi, San Angelo, Amarillo, Odessa, Lubbock, Rio Grande Valley and Fort Worth, 1 ECHL team in Beaumont and 2 AHL teams in San Antonio and Houston. Those leagues all have/had pro affiliations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thema Posted July 25, 2014 Share Posted July 25, 2014 never in my post did I say that Houston lost its AHL team because it couldn't support one, as far as im concerned it should still have one, that is beside the point. My point was using the Aeros as an example to show that Houston cant support an NHL team, not that it couldn't support an AHL team (which it can). And for the record, I am aware that Houston had no control over the team leaving. Also, Houston and Dallas would play each other in Houston 2 maybe 3 times per year. There are 41 home games in the NHL regular season.... that leaves 38 other games that they would have to fill seats. Good luck with that lol. Finally, with respect to ur final point, I already said that exact same thing in my post that having an NHL team would draw more because it is a better product.... Houston is not a viable NHL market, nor will it ever be. Quebec City, Seattle, GTA, Hamilton... heck, even Saskatchewan or Halifax would be better spots to relocate to than Houston. The way I see it, moving Houston would be a very lateral move.... going from one city where nobody cares about hockey and the team loses millions to another Texas is not a viable NHL market period. Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't the Stars still officially up for sale? One tiny detail missing in all the analysis put forth here is the discrepancy between number of tickets sold and how much those tickets sell for. It is meaningless to say that, for example, Nashville sells 97% of its tickets if the tickets are selling for a fraction of what tickets sell for in stronger markets like Vancouver. One ticket sale in Van equals roughly 8 to 10 ticket sales in places like St. Louis (where they had a special where you could get a ticket, hot dog and beer for $12.98 IIRC awhile back) or Tampa (who once sold seasons tickets for $99 again IIRC). It's not about bums in seats it's about the income per bum. Canada rules in that regard and the further south you go the worse it gets. The whole "banking on the snowbird market" strategy that the NHL embraced when it expanded into the sun belt is proving to be a red herring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Sikes Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Two things. 1. LOL 2. I want to know how much money the Coyotes lost last year. They've got 5 years to lose $50 million dollars, then the out clause is triggered and the team can move. Unless their financial fortunes improve drastically and people, you know, actually start showing up to the games, they should hit that mark easy with time to spare. I can't see this deal getting killed. But I can see the team continuing to bleed money until the new 'owners' pick up and move. 5 years? They can loose that in 2, they are just playing the extortion game until they get a suitable arena built somewhere else, right now there is nowhere to move them to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostsof1915 Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 Ok...lets look at real numbers: ECHL: NHL development circuit, 21 teams. 0 in Texas AHL: NHL development circuit, 30 teams, 2 teams in Texas, San Antonio, and Texas Stars. Houston Aeros left to go to Iowa in 2013. IOWA!!!!! http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph.php?tmi=6119 Aeros only averaged about 6000 fans per season. Which is decent in the AHL. Now look at minor league hockey in Vancouver. http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph.php?tmi=8759 Pretty much the same if not better. And that's the CHL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aqua59 Posted July 26, 2014 Share Posted July 26, 2014 The round peg that keeps getting stuffed into a square hole. It just isn't going to fly. Seattle looks better all the time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hairy Kneel Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 money pit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gyllenhaal Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Bettman is so determined to building markets where there is no interest that he is crippling the growth of the NHL franchise. Hopefully the Coyotes and Panthers are non-existent in the next 5 or so years and Vancouver finally has a neighborhood rival in Seattle and Montreal has one in Quebec City. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Sikes Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 You are mistaken with this assertion. The AHL would still be in Houston except for a couple of circumstances out Houston's control. The Wild controls the AHL team. The Wild intended to move the farm team to Iowa for closer proximity after the Stars moved their Iowa franchise to Cedar Park/Austin. Attendance was not the issue here. The Wild refused to negotiate with the city to keep the team there. An another poster is correct: There are more professional hockey teams in Texas than Canada. And the rivalry between Houston and Dallas is so great that it would fill seats. Thing is for most Canadians is that they have never been down here, they do not know what this city is like, and do not realize the amount of money that is here. Finally, a premium product draws a premium audience. The AHL is great, but it is not the NHL. Having money and getting people to spend it are two different things (Phoenix is a clear example of that). Potential doesn't pay the bills. It is no doubt a better choice than Phoenix or Florida, but I am not sold on it as being better than some markets where hockey is a bigger part of the culture (Seattle, Quebec, Markham, Hamilton, Portland, Milwaukee) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrJockitch Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 The problem the Grizzlies had is almost the same as Arizona. Non traditional market Never very good teams (grizzlies were consistently the worst team in the league and never allowed the first overall pick) Played boring style. Ugly uniforms At least the coyotes have had a few decent years and have had decent management at times. The NBA never really stood up for the grizzlies at any point other than blocking one sale. The NHL has bent over backwards to keep the Coyotes. The Sonics moving was purely about public money. The NBA wanted tax payers to pay for and arena. It was a fairly well supported team with history and moving the team was reprehensible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aqua59 Posted July 27, 2014 Share Posted July 27, 2014 Seattle anyone? My sentiments exactly. Not for a second have I though the NHL is going to work in Phoenix. It's just gonna drag out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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