Temporary foreign workers prepare to leave the country

[Hugor Hill]

To add, we want immigrants or expats here because they buy stuff, propping demand and thus economic activity, not because they provide cheaper labour.

[Sapper]

I support opening immigration and permitting a good number of these workers to remain in Canada - as Canadians. Making them free to move about, change jobs, and contribute to our Country. What I do not support is the use of TFW's for even one single entry level job. Here is my reasons

The use of TFW's has unbalanced our economy and greatly contributed to not only the growing in equality but the destruction of the middle class. The free market ( capitalism ) system is based on one being able to charge the maximum that the market will accept. What the use of TFW's did was to remove the need for companies to comply with the basic laws of Capitalism and artificially keep all entery level wages low. Example - without the use of TFW's these companies would have had to continue to increase the wages being offered until it reached a level that they were able to hire enough staff to meet thier needs. If they were forced to pay 2 or 3 bucks an hour above minimum to achieve this - all other companies would have to follow suit to keep and recruit employees. The spin off then becomes higher wages incremnetally for all workers, not just those entery level jobs.

What Harper has acheived is an unblanced economic system due to legislative interfrence. If these companies were forced to pay what the market called for, it would have begun to drive up wages all across the board. Instead we are seeing such things as "Record Corperate Profits for Canadain Companies - Poor Economic Growth" in the same sentence. If we have record Corperate profits why are peoples wages stagnant?

It has been the last 2 generations, and this one, that has bought the Right wing lies about unions, the right to work, and been helped to support them in killing the middle class. The same businuess model that is used to drive up profits has been removed from workers. I just wish these folks that keep supporting this would finally demand that Businuess live by the same rules.

Could you imagine if Businuess was treated the same as workers?

- Right to shop laws to counter right to work

- Any price increase that would reduce spending power of familes would see legislated roll backs on prices ( just like workers legislated back to work )

- Legislation to ensure that companies drive down prices to become globally competitive -

- Legislation to ban collectives of businuess's

- No right to charge what the market will bear - legislated rights for workers to outsource from Canada any purchases ( no duty or fees ) -

Sounds silly but that is exactly what has happened to workers. Our economy is in the tank in large part due to the legislative interfence in the free market by goverment that has favoured 100% Businuess - and nothing for workers.

When you hear that the right wing beleive in capatilsm - its a lie. They beleive in capatilsm and free market for them - wage control and legislative interference to bring down unions and workers groups for the rest of us.

I am sure the right wing supporters will disagree - but how do we as a society explain record Corperate Profits and Record worker debt and stagnant wages? We all agree that if a company charges to much they will go out of businuess - same for workers who ask for too much. Difference is that companies are able to get around the whole "local issue" and bring in TFW's at what they want to pay - remove that right and you restore the supply vs demand that keeps wages in check with market realities and the cost of living.

And on a final note - If these TFW's are good enough to work for us - they certainly have earned their right to immigrate as full rights citizens. Immigration is good for Canada - TFW program is not in my opinion

[oldnews]

I must say that I'm having a hard time feeling sad over this, and here's why.

I have NEVER in my life been out of work, except by choice in order to care for my kids. With that, since October I've painstakingly been applying and interviewing for jobs (that are swamped with applicants...its' not uncommon for 2000 Resumes to be sent for one position). In my city, I'd guess that 50-70% of jobs in the administrative field call for a Chinese language, narrowing down potential jobs for me in this region (I've gone well outside of it in my search).

With so many people now losing jobs here (Target, Future Shop, in the oil industry, etc.), it's getting tougher to find a job and although that's what this woman is experiencing in facing going back home, I feel that same pain. It's basically me or her.

I think you're missing a fairly relevant point here Deb, that is, unless you yourself are willing or able to work at McDonalds, let alone as a farm worker, nanny, etc. Could you raise your family on that income?

You are talking about the administrative field. Is Canada experiencing an influx of foreign administrators entering the country as TFW? I think people here might be missing the point of the demographic that is represented by TFW. The irony of the 'us and them' in this context is that our economy has 'needed' this influx of TFW as some industries that pay marginal wages (and often relatively unregulated or even less than 'legal') have utilized these workers where Canadians would not take or accept these jobs or the working conditions that come with them.

[aGENT]

I think you're missing a fairly relevant point here Deb, that is, unless you yourself are willing or able to work at McDonalds, let alone as a farm worker, nanny, etc. Could you raise your family on that income?

You are talking about the administrative field. Is Canada experiencing an influx of foreign administrators entering the country as TFW? I think people here might be missing the point of the demographic that is represented by TFW. The irony of the 'us and them' in this context is that our economy has 'needed' this influx of TFW as some industries that pay marginal wages (and often relatively unregulated or even less than 'legal') have utilized these workers where Canadians would not take or accept these jobs or the working conditions that come with them.

This has already been covered.

iwtl's post above yours probably the most completely.

[oldnews]

This has already been covered.

iwtl's post above yours probably the most completely.

posted 2 minutes apart J.R. - in other words, as I was writing that post. your redundancy police thing is perhaps a bit overdone here.

[aGENT]

posted 2 minutes apart J.R. - in other words, as I was writing that post. your redundancy police thing is perhaps a bit overdone here.

It's been covered elsewhere in the thread as well. Numerous times. It was wrong minded when those posts were written as well

Redundancy police...?

[Mr.DirtyDangles]

Or...maybe...just maybe...most of us white Canadians don't feel like working our a**es off for $15/hour, when there are much more interesting, fulfilling, and less physically taxing careers that pay substantially more?

And...maybe...just maybe...that those seeking work in one of the aforementioned careers, but who are currently unemployed, realize that adding 'yard maintenance' to their resume won't help them get a job in their preferred career at all, and that long-term they'd be better off taking the minimum-wage office job. At least that way they'd get some relative experience for where they want to go.

You just solidified my point. Not everyone can be a lawyer, doctor, engineer etc. The blue collar force makes the world turn. Of course a mother of 2 will not be able to support herself on 15 an hour.

My point is to many lazy people thinking their sh.. dont stink and are above working for 15 and hour. If you think working at MacDonald's or landscaping is working your ass off then you have no clue what working your ass off is.

[thejazz97]

You just solidified my point. Not everyone can be a lawyer, doctor, engineer etc. The blue collar force makes the world turn. Of course a mother of 2 will not be able to support herself on 15 an hour.

But if we didn't have white-collar workers, most of our outputs would be agriculture.

The work force is interdependent; without blue-collar workers, the white-collar workers wouldn't be anywhere. Without white-collar workers, the blue-collar workers would be disorganized.

And gravity is what makes the world turn.

[D-Money]

You just solidified my point. Not everyone can be a lawyer, doctor, engineer etc. The blue collar force makes the world turn. Of course a mother of 2 will not be able to support herself on 15 an hour.

My point is to many lazy people thinking their sh.. dont stink and are above working for 15 and hour. If you think working at MacDonald's or landscaping is working your ass off then you have no clue what working your ass off is.

No...no I didn't.

There's nothing wrong with blue collar work. The problem is the employers that figure they can pay stagnant wages, even when the economy is going strong. If you have a job that is physically demanding and unpleasant to do, and there are lots of jobs available, what is the course of action? Raise the wage! That is what capitalism is all about, no? If a supplier has a product that is in demand, raising the price is the logical course of action. But instead, businesses cry fowl and have the government import people from less fortunate countries. That hurts the locals three times:

1) there are less jobs available for them

2) the locals who are already doing those jobs don't receive raises to match the rest of the job market, not to mention the inevitable increases in local cost of living

3) much of the money paid to the foreign workers doesn't get spent in the local economy

It's not "lazy people thinking their sh.. don't stink and are above working for 15 and (sic) hour", it's businesses who assume people are idiots. When they can earn more elsewhere, or at least a similar amount in a preferable job, or something that provides better experience for their long-term career goals, why would they slog it out for less/worse?

If you see the same product at one store for 10% lower than another, or a better product at the same price, what do you buy? The cheaper/better one, of course. What should the response of the other business be? To sit on their high horse and say "Too many customers think their sh*% don't stink, and are above paying extra for the privilege of buying from us"? How would that fly in a sales letter?

And when the economy is rolling, why shouldn't the increased profits at least partially be spread among the workers by higher wages? Why should the owners be the only beneficiaries of a healthy economy? Of course, the TFW program flies in the face of all of this (since its not in the immediate favour of big business - surprise!).

--------------------------------

As for your 2nd assertion, that is also categorically false. I worked in rebar for a couple years, so I absolutely know all about hard work. But I went to a cushy office job that paid about the same. However, when I moved to Calgary, I considered going back to rebar, at least temporarily. Why? Because there was a construction boom going on, and wages were extremely high. However, it turned out that Alberta is one of two Provinces (Quebec the other) who requires the workers to be ticketed for that type of work. I totally would have gone back to a much more difficult job, had I been compensated enough for my additional efforts.

[Miss Korea Bob.Loblaw]

This country already has too many teachers. The last thing we need is more.

Amen brotha!

Not an entirely accurate statement (depends on the subject), but in general this is a sad truth.

[oldnews]

It's been covered elsewhere in the thread as well. Numerous times. It was wrong minded when those posts were written as well

Redundancy police...?

Yeah - I already found you'd one-upped me where useless posts are concerned by pointing out that the point had been made in the post above, but regarding your claim that the response was "wrong minded" - which is obviously the unstated part of your objection - and one you haven't made the effort to quality - I don't think you actually understood the point I was making.

[aGENT]

No I don't think you understand it. Canadians would more than happily work those jobs for the appropriate compensation as has already been covered and continues to be covered.

And Already qualified it here:

Which led to the discussion of how improperly both our government and the public is currently treating our agricultural/food systems and how we're not paying the "real" costs of our food off the backs of borderline slave labour.

and here

Short term pain for long term gain. Higher consumer prices also bring higher paying jobs which contribute to both local economies and tax revenue.

The "pipe dream" is thinking this cheap labour, race to the bottom is remotely sustainable long term.

Never mind the other posts by other users, a few of which on this very page. Also stating it's wrong minded doesn't strike me as being unstated.

[aGENT]

---

[oldnews]

---

As I thought - you misread my perspective.

[aGENT]

As I thought - you misread my perspective.

Quoting my accidental double post....?

Were you being sarcastic?

[Lancaster]

This country already has too many teachers. The last thing we need is more.

Amen brotha!

Bad for the teacher's union. Better for the students.

[Mr.DirtyDangles]

No...no I didn't.

There's nothing wrong with blue collar work. The problem is the employers that figure they can pay stagnant wages, even when the economy is going strong. If you have a job that is physically demanding and unpleasant to do, and there are lots of jobs available, what is the course of action? Raise the wage! That is what capitalism is all about, no? If a supplier has a product that is in demand, raising the price is the logical course of action. But instead, businesses cry fowl and have the government import people from less fortunate countries. That hurts the locals three times:

1) there are less jobs available for them

2) the locals who are already doing those jobs don't receive raises to match the rest of the job market, not to mention the inevitable increases in local cost of living

3) much of the money paid to the foreign workers doesn't get spent in the local economy

It's not "lazy people thinking their sh.. don't stink and are above working for 15 and (sic) hour", it's businesses who assume people are idiots. When they can earn more elsewhere, or at least a similar amount in a preferable job, or something that provides better experience for their long-term career goals, why would they slog it out for less/worse?

If you see the same product at one store for 10% lower than another, or a better product at the same price, what do you buy? The cheaper/better one, of course. What should the response of the other business be? To sit on their high horse and say "Too many customers think their sh*% don't stink, and are above paying extra for the privilege of buying from us"? How would that fly in a sales letter?

And when the economy is rolling, why shouldn't the increased profits at least partially be spread among the workers by higher wages? Why should the owners be the only beneficiaries of a healthy economy? Of course, the TFW program flies in the face of all of this (since its not in the immediate favour of big business - surprise!).

--------------------------------

As for your 2nd assertion, that is also categorically false. I worked in rebar for a couple years, so I absolutely know all about hard work. But I went to a cushy office job that paid about the same. However, when I moved to Calgary, I considered going back to rebar, at least temporarily. Why? Because there was a construction boom going on, and wages were extremely high. However, it turned out that Alberta is one of two Provinces (Quebec the other) who requires the workers to be ticketed for that type of work. I totally would have gone back to a much more difficult job, had I been compensated enough for my additional efforts.

Sorry for the late reply ...... Just to clarify I am actually against TFW more than you can imagine. You make some valid points for sure but after having managed employees for over 13 years it showed me a large percentage of today's youth are in fact idiots and are extremely lazy. Worthless at problem solving, no sense of time management and expect a Kings ransom for literally no effort.

In fact the turn over rate is so high in blue collar as a result of terrible work ethic more often than the wages not being up to snuff.

Have friends who have worked re-bar, a brutal thankless job. Was not making any assertions, just a statement really. It came across to me as pretty lazy man's comment....

"us white Canadians don't feel like working our a**es off for $15/hour, when there are much more interesting, fulfilling, and less physically taxing careers that pay substantially more?

I am white and have been told many times I am too qualified for many positions I have applied for. I know a lesser skilled foreign worker is quite possibly doing my desired job for less. Yeah it sickens me. I just see another side of the problem and it is lazy ass workers thinking they deserve more for less work.