Temporary foreign workers prepare to leave the country

[aGENT]

I would not be against government subsidies to farmers if it means farmers' hands Canadian pickers will work instead of TFWs. As JR said, exploiting third world labour lets us avoid paying the true cost of agriculture, but there's no such thing as a free lunch, and so we're paying elsewhere, and probably more than we would otherwise.

I have this dream where instead of subsidizing large agro-corporations with subsidies, we actually subsidize sustainable farming methods and ensuring farmers and farm workers make a living wage. We'd have a healthier environment, healthier food and a healthier economy *gasp*

[drummer4now]

I have this dream where instead of subsidizing large agro-corporations with subsidies, we actually subsidize sustainable farming methods and ensuring farmers and farm workers make a living wage. We'd have a healthier environment, healthier food and a healthier economy *gasp*

Too expensive and a bit of pipedream..

Ageing demographics certainly don't help..

I think we will see the return of TFW again in some form or another because there a plenty and I mean plenty of eager young people living in the third world seeking a way out...

[aGENT]

Too expensive and a bit of pipedream..

Ageing demographics certainly don't help..

I think we will see the return of TFW again in some form or another because there a plenty and I mean plenty of eager young people living in the third world seeking a way out...

No, too expensive is the destruction of the middle class and sending all those profits off shore to huge foreign owned corporations.

Any tax dollars that went to farmers and farm workers would only end up getting re-spent IN country.

Astonishing how so many people can't see the forest for the trees.

[thejazz97]

I have this dream where instead of subsidizing large agro-corporations with subsidies, we actually subsidize sustainable farming methods and ensuring farmers and farm workers make a living wage. We'd have a healthier environment, healthier food and a healthier economy *gasp*

Too expensive and a bit of pipedream..

Ageing demographics certainly don't help..

I think we will see the return of TFW again in some form or another because there a plenty and I mean plenty of eager young people living in the third world seeking a way out...

No, too expensive is the destruction of the middle class and sending all those profits off shore to huge foreign owned corporations.

Any tax dollars that went to farmers and farm workers would only end up getting re-spent IN country.

Astonishing how so many people can't see the forest for the trees.

It's a good idea, but it will take a lot of money and change. Something that most of our society isn't willing to do right now.

[-DLC-]

What? I don't even get this?

Are you actually telling me I'm not aloud to express my opinion here anymore and because I disagree with you I should shut up and go be apart of the solution instead?

Wow

I didn't do that, so let's not twist things.

You are allowed to say aloud....as I am (and did).

We can agree to disagree...which is what I'll do in moving forward.

[drummer4now]

No, too expensive is the destruction of the middle class and sending all those profits off shore to huge foreign owned corporations.

Any tax dollars that went to farmers and farm workers would only end up getting re-spent IN country.

Astonishing how so many people can't see the forest for the trees.

Disagree..

You can cry all you want about sending money to foreign owned corps but the fact of the matter is what other alternatives do we have here in Canada? We barely manufacture anything..

It would be too costly to do so anyway because of social factors like brand, prestige,etc..

Also have you seen the current demographics of farm workers? It's a industry in decline much like the retail industry..

http://www.canada.com/reginaleaderpost/news/story.html?id=5decacf8-b6b4-4212-b5b4-874834f08b67

Old article but sums up some good points...

Unfortunately large agro-corps (Dairyland, etc..) are the future now.. as the mom and pop farms are either going under or merging with these corps to stay afloat

Only way to support them is to buy local and what not I guess..

[aGENT]

It's a good idea, but it will take a lot of money and change. Something that most of our society isn't willing to do right now.

Notice the plan was to first stop the corporate subsidies and then simply apply that existing money to subsidize things that are actually good for the country and economy as opposed to bad for them (corporate subsidies).

It wouldn't cost any money. It would actually increase both individual earnings and tax revenue (both income and sales).

[aGENT]

Unfortunately large agro-corps (Dairyland, etc..) are the future now.. as the mom and pop farms are either going under or merging with these corps to stay afloat

Only way to support them is to buy local and what not I guess..

That's precisely BECAUSE of our race to the bottom. How are you not grasping the correlation?

And yes, by all means, please buy local. It might cost you a few shillings more but it's SO much better for your local economy and the country's long term ability to support itself.

[thejazz97]

Notice the plan was to first stop the corporate subsidies and then simply apply that existing money to subsidize things that are actually good for the country and economy as opposed to bad for them (corporate subsidies).

It wouldn't cost any money. It would actually increase both individual earnings and tax revenue (both income and sales).

Yes, but that's potential money coming out of someone's pocket, even if it wasn't there yet. Would the corporations be the ones losing out?

[-DLC-]

Everything JR has said in this thread makes perfect sense. I tend to get emotionally invested, mostly as a result of my own struggles. But a good discussion for sure.

[Hugor Hill]

or it's as if he's referring to the fact that this article is about low-skilled employees working low-skill jobs?

Sure it is but we can certainly expand beyond this article by 2 centimetres.

[drummer4now]

That's precisely BECAUSE of our race to the bottom. How are you not grasping the correlation?

And yes, by all means, please buy local. It might cost you a few shillings more but it's SO much better for your local economy and the country's long term ability to support itself.

Fallacy...

It's controversial at best.

http://www.econlib.org/library/Columns/y2008/Selicklocal.html

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/11/26/if-you-buy-local-youll-have-less-money-to-spend-locally/

Alternative viewpoints[edit]

The argument that "buying local" is good for the economy is questioned by many economic theorists. They argue that transportation costs actually account for a fraction of overall production prices, and that choosing less efficient local products over more efficient nonlocal products is an economic deadweight loss. Moreover, the community as a whole does not actually save money because consumers have to spend so much more on the more expensive local products.^[7]Karen Selick argues that the buying local trend is just a watered-down version of protectionism, and would not benefit communities as proponents envisage.

Similarly the moral purchasing argument has been questioned as more and more consumers consider the welfare of people in countries other than their own. Most "buy local" campaigns rely on the implicit assumption that providing jobs for people in the consumers' own country is more moral than in "foreign" countries. They also imply that money going to foreign countries is worse than money staying in the consumers' own country. Increasingly, these campaigns have been called out as paranoid, jingoist and even xenophobic.

Additionally, organic local food tends to be more costly so this is not an appealing option to consumers who are shopping on a budget. Small-scale farmers do not receive government subsidies and are not able to support their business on prices comparable to those of industrial-scale food production, so they must sell at higher prices to make a living.^[2] Therefore, in order for the appeal of the local agriculture movement to overcome the economic cost, people must be willing to invest in it, which is unlikely when apparently similar products are available in grocery stores for a lower cost. Despite this, distribution costs of expansive food trade must also be factored in; with increasing gas prices, it becomes more expensive to ship food from outside sources.

Besides these arguments against local purchasing, society has now reached a point where globalization is so deeply embedded that it is difficult to turn back, and impossible to remove completely. Globalization has fostered a higher level of dependency, requiring international trade for products that may not be otherwise available, particularly produce that is grown out-of-season. Limited local accessibility is indicative that trade on a global scale is a necessity in the modern economy. This transcontinental sharing of food results in an exchange that continues to be both profitable and sustainable, provided that the government support and consumer demand for these products persists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_purchasing

[drummer4now]

Everything JR has said in this thread makes perfect sense. I tend to get emotionally invested, mostly as a result of my own struggles. But a good discussion for sure.

Please read the evidence that is contrary..

[ronthecivil]

2 things here Deb

1 - she is not going home to a similar situation you were in. It's far far worse. It's so not even close, it's almost disrespectful to compare the two. I'm not trying to downplay your situation and the hardships you've gone through, but until Canada turns into a third world country and by your paycheck alone you have to support your husband, your kids, your parents, your husbands parents and in many cases, extended family as well - all who are living in what can barely be described as a shack, living on a bowl of rice... it's not even close.

2- in many cases, these workers are doing jobs that Canadians won't do. I remember a case in the US a few years ago of one of the border states changing their temporary foreign immigration laws and farmers couldn't harvest their crops any more. I watch an interview of a farmer who said Americans won't work in the fields, and the few exceptions who try, don't last more then a day or two before they quit because the work is too hard.

And why is the situation here better? Because we have a skilled workforce and a good economy!

Does having a bunch of TFWs contribute to this, especially during a downturn? No!

If a farmer can't find workers, that's his/her problem, and we don't need to sacrifice our national economy to prop them up. They can either pay more, or automate more, just like every other business in the same situation.

Other governments are free to try to adopt our policies and do the same thing if they want. That they don't manage to run themselves correctly is their problem.

[drummer4now]

And why is the situation here better? Because we have a skilled workforce and a good economy!

Does having a bunch of TFWs contribute to this, especially during a downturn? No!

If a farmer can't find workers, that's his/her problem, and we don't need to sacrifice our national economy to prop them up. They can either pay more, or automate more, just like every other business in the same situation.

Other governments are free to try to adopt our policies and do the same thing if they want. That they don't manage to run themselves correctly is their problem.

One could argue that we have too many skilled people and the lack of jobs to compensate them..

As for our economy its only good because of our low population, vast resources, and proper spending..

Take that out of the equation and we would be like the third world fast..

Even if some places were to match our policies they would never be able to compete at our level.

Long story short we are just lucky..

[D-Money]

Think about how stupid and lazy the average person is.

Then realize that half of them are stupider and lazier than that.

Almost every person who quotes that believes they are in the top half...

But the top half make their own quotes.

[aGENT]

Fallacy...

It's controversial at best.

http://www.econlib.org/library/Columns/y2008/Selicklocal.html

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/11/26/if-you-buy-local-youll-have-less-money-to-spend-locally/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_purchasing

[GLASSJAW]

Fallacy...

It's controversial at best.

http://www.econlib.org/library/Columns/y2008/Selicklocal.html

http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2011/11/26/if-you-buy-local-youll-have-less-money-to-spend-locally/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Local_purchasing

wow, drummer, thanks for these amazing links. who knew that the rather extreme statement "BUY EVERYTHING YOU EVER WANT TO PURCHASE FROM A LOCAL VENDOR BECAUSE THAT'S BETTER FOR EVERYONE" isn't completely accurate?

[GLASSJAW]

i especially love the Forbes one. the blogger (who writes about video games, apparently) uses such a specific example (while ignoring loads of different factors as to why buying locally could be better) to arrive at a complete non-point -- something that very few people would even argue against, except for some rather extreme hippie-types

the comments on that article are hilarious

[Mr.DirtyDangles]

All of us soon.

If things keep going the way they are.

The double edged sword here... I am all for Canadian jobs for Canadians but many of these Canadians mostly the younger work force are to spoiled or proud to work in say the custodial field or blue collar sector. Getting their hands dirty is not their cup of tea. Sanding/painting cars is too hard, pouring concrete or scanning items or maintaining peoples yards for 15 an hour cuts into their party time.

Most of the major food chains/stores have descent starting wages but yet I rarely see a young white person behind the glass or till. To busy whining to mom and dad for that new Celly or $200 pair of jeans.

There are tons of jobs but many Canadians feel they are above these employment opportunities. So they are passed down to those willing to work and grabbing a paycheck.

Sad state of affairs if you ask me