Quoted Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 You can't manage a team using graphs. There's just a teensy tiny bit more to it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KeslerPlaysLikeACanadian Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Come on man! When I bash JB for bad moves like Sutter u don't drink my kool aid and even when I support the team and say they're gonna win, you wont? You will be come June 15th. It's more that I can't actually tell what you mean. Your post is frothing. It sounds like someone hyperventilating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTG Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 The article is right about Miller vs Lack. Miller is not even an improvement on Lack plus comes at a higher cap hit. Imagine if we had traded Miller instead of Lack we could have maybe afforded Franson or Erhroff and either make the playoffs or trade them at the deadline for picks to help the rebuild. It really doesn't make sense to get rid of the younger, better, cheaper goaltender. They are also pretty bang on with the Sutter trade. Makes no sense from a analytical standpoint. Bonino is statistically way better. He creates more highscoring chances, generates more shots playing against harder competition and was used in shutdown situations. Then giving him that massive contract before he even proves himself that he can be a top 6 player. It looks terrible, it is terrible. The next part of the article I have some issues with. Tanev and Edler are perfectly capable of being part of the new core. If we rebuild we need to have at least a good defenseman. We can't just trade everyone away and rely on the kids. Overall, the article makes some very good points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesB Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 God damn Sutter again. Dude had 21 goals last year playing on the Penguins 3rd line. Did you guys see who was on the Penguins 3rd line last year? Hell I could have probably played on it. And of course he only had 12 assists. You try getting assists when you're passing it to a sack of potatoes. He's great at faceoffs (and in case you forgot we sucked donkey d at faceoffs last year), clutch as frack, and is a great leader. But yeah, no show Bonino is much bettter. Get real. Sutter is way better than Bonino and it isn't even close. Trust me. I watched probably more Penguin games last year than I did Canuck games as the Penguins are my 2nd favorite team. Sutter is twice the player Bonino is. The points raised in the OP have been bothering me. I checked out War-on-Ice data on Sutter hoping it would make feel better about trading for him and re-signing him to a big contract with, it turns out, a full no-trade commitment for 2015-16 and a full NTC for 3 years after than. But Sutter's numbers really are disappointing for a guy with his cap hit. And the argument about playing behind Crosby and Malkin does not hold water. Playing behind those guys means pretty much never facing a top D pairing at 5-on-5 and spending most of his time against 3rd pairing D's. And the guys he was playing with were more effective scorers than Sutter. Canuck fans want to assume Sutter was held back by his wingers but it is at least equally likely that the reverse is true. Benning has pretty much committed to Sutter starting at 2C. I think that will hurt Baertschi's development and cut into Vrbata's production, assuming they are his wingers. Sutter has never generated many assists at any time in his career, no matter who he played with. Even in his final year of Junior (the year he turned 19 during the year) he had only 23 assists in 59 games to go along with 26 goals for 49 pts in total. And I assume he playing with very good wingers (by Junior standards) then. By comparison, Linden Vey had 70 assists in 69 games in his final year of Junior (also in the WHL). Horvat, who did not turn 19 until the end of the season, had 44 assists in 54 games and 30 goals in his final year of Junior and, like Sutter, he was regarded a strong defensive player. Similarly, McCann and Cassels have much numbers in Junior than Sutter had. Basically, after being a first round pick the year he turned 18 his record was somewhat disappointing after that. He is a good defensive player who is good on the PK. And he has size and is a good skater. Those things explain why he was a first round draft pick. But the idea that at age 26 (turning 27 during the season) he is going to blossom into a good offensive player requires a healthy dose of optimism. Benning is substituting his "old school" values and his own subjective assessment for what modern data analysis says. It is an interesting experiment, but the Canucks have made a huge commitment that they will not be able to escape from very easily if it does not pan out. I hope Benning is right but that is not the way the smart money will be betting. And the fact that Tony Gallagher loves the trade makes me very nervous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 The points raised in the OP have been bothering me. I checked out War-on-Ice data on Sutter hoping it would make feel better about trading for him and re-signing him to a big contract with, it turns out, a full no-trade commitment for 2015-16 and a full NTC for 3 years after than. But Sutter's numbers really are disappointing for a guy with his cap hit. And the argument about playing behind Crosby and Malkin does not hold water. Playing behind those guys means pretty much never facing a top D pairing at 5-on-5 and spending most of his time against 3rd pairing D's. And the guys he was playing with were more effective scorers than Sutter. Canuck fans want to assume Sutter was held back by his wingers but it is at least equally likely that the reverse is true. Benning has pretty much committed to Sutter starting at 2C. I think that will hurt Baertschi's development and cut into Vrbata's production, assuming they are his wingers. Sutter has never generated many assists at any time in his career, no matter who he played with. Even in his final year of Junior (the year he turned 19 during the year) he had only 23 assists in 59 games to go along with 26 goals for 49 pts in total. And I assume he playing with very good wingers (by Junior standards) then. By comparison, Linden Vey had 70 assists in 69 games in his final year of Junior (also in the WHL). Horvat, who did not turn 19 until the end of the season, had 44 assists in 54 games and 30 goals in his final year of Junior and, like Sutter, he was regarded a strong defensive player. Similarly, McCann and Cassels have much numbers in Junior than Sutter had. Basically, after being a first round pick the year he turned 18 his record was somewhat disappointing after that. He is a good defensive player who is good on the PK. And he has size and is a good skater. Those things explain why he was a first round draft pick. But the idea that at age 26 (turning 27 during the season) he is going to blossom into a good offensive player requires a healthy dose of optimism. Benning is substituting his "old school" values and his own subjective assessment for what modern data analysis says. It is an interesting experiment, but the Canucks have made a huge commitment that they will not be able to escape from very easily if it does not pan out. I hope Benning is right but that is not the way the smart money will be betting. And the fact that Tony Gallagher loves the trade makes me very nervous. You need to remember those numbers you're so high on using to evaluate players are only a tool in the evaluation. They are not based in real science. The collection of the data is open to debate, along with the interpretation too. Simply, Sutter is a big step up on Bonino. Bonino can't skate worth a damn, and he's soft - like a marshmellow. I did not like his play from the first time I saw him, regardless of what any Numbers might indicate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo Bo 53 Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Four big mistakes Hiring benning Keeping benning Not bring up Shinckaruk Drafting virtanen instead of Ritchie or Ehlers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbadcanucks Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Why would the Ducks want Burrows, exactly? Because with a boat load of cap space (even after signing Hagelin and Silfverberg) the Ducks are in a win-now situation and Burrows would provide them with veteran depth to go with Getzlaf, Perry, Kesler, Cogliano up front. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyoung Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 I disagree with the Miller over Lack. They made the right decision. As for sutter... I'm still in shock. I've said my stance enough. I'll let it go. Poor cap management I have to agree with. Jem beanung can't count. He needs to review elementary school math. As for the plan... Who knows. They say playoffs and retool... Its a complete mistake. They had to buy at the deadline last year and push for the cup. JB stood pat other than acquiring Sven. This off season... Again... Mind boggling moves and show 0 direction. The time is now. The sedins are generational talents whether you like it or not. You don't rebuild when they are still at the top of their game. Regardless of all this - the canucks are in my blood and they have my complete support. Lord Henrik and Daniel can carry this team to another cup before its all said and done. as much as I agree with u on some of your points... The sedins are great but they will not win a cup with Vancouver. This team is looking like 3-4 years until they are an actual threat to win the cup. Sure playoffs are possible but we need these young guys to develop a bit and replace the veterans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desiboynux4lifee******* Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 The thing is nobody knows what Benning is doing. Some think he is rebuilding, some say he is rebuilding and some say he is going to give younger guys tougher roles okay this one. lol im sorry if you think Hansen or Higgins will be benched over a younger player eg Virtanen than seriously give your head a shake. In-fact Hansen and Higgins will get more ice time than ever next year, just watch. Baertschi will be the Kassian on the team next year! Eg he will have talent but management will say things like he is not playing a complete game Higgins and Hansen will be treated like gods again Sbisa will play the powerplay and Bartwoksi will be Lidster's main man next year because you know its Lidster. Finally, I see Vey breaking out next year, I just do because he has hockey iq but who knows. Also, Taylor Fedun will do decent on Utica, but Weber will hog is his spot and when big games come up he will go back to being a minus player because again Lidster can't asses skill. Lidster is a problem you will see it next year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GB5 Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Naysaying pot stirrers always do this preseason....what a crock of crap. It's become "cool" to slam the Canucks but let's see how their golden team, the Leafs do (again). Negative Nancy types try to bring me down but I just tune them out. Not credible...this just makes them every other idiot to me. Canuck fans' biggest mistake of the year is to believe that Ontario biased journalists know half as much as they think they do. Took the words right out of my mouth. I'm sick of this crap. I can't wait till the puck drops and hopefully everyone will be praising Benning for his savvy moves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BanTSN Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Miller and Sutter were good signings because they both needed to be signed by a team willing to pay them at market value. The overall plan is to remain competitive every season, as usual. And good cap management in the eye of the beholder. I doubt the writer of the article even looked at potential salary movement and free agency down the road. Regardless, CSE will continue to provide top-notch sports entertainment experiences for the paying fans, as usual. Did I mention that it's business as usual? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyoung Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 The thing is nobody knows what Benning is doing. Some think he is rebuilding, some say he is rebuilding and some say he is going to give younger guys tougher roles okay this one. lol im sorry if you think Hansen or Higgins will be benched over a younger player eg Virtanen than seriously give your head a shake. In-fact Hansen and Higgins will get more ice time than ever next year, just watch. Baertschi will be the Kassian of the team next year! Eg he will have talent but management will say things like he is not playing a complete game Higgins and Hansen will be treated like gods again Sbisa will play the powerplay and Bartwoksi will be Lidster's main man next year because you know its Lidster. Finally, I see Vey breaking out next year, I just do because he has hockey iq but who knows. Also, Taylor Fedun will do decent on Utica, but Weber will hog is his spot and when big games come up he will go back to being a minus player because again Lidster can't asses skill. Lidster is a problem you will see it next year. Omg enough with lidster, give it up man. God damn broken record Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desiboynux4lifee******* Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Miller and Sutter were good signings because they both needed to be signed by a team willing to pay them at market value. The overall plan is to remain competitive every season, as usual. And good cap management in the eye of the beholder. I doubt the writer of the article even looked at potential salary movement and free agency down the road. Regardless, CSE will continue to provide top-notch sports entertainment experiences for the paying fans, as usual. Did I mention that it's business as usual? Can we beat the LA Kings in a 7 games series? Can we Beat the Flames in a 7 games series? Can we beat the Winnipeg Jets in a 7 games series? Can we beat the Dallas Stars in a 7 games series? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cyoung Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Can we beat the LA Kings in a 7 games series? Can we Beat the Flames in a 7 games series? Can we beat the Winnipeg Jets in a 7 games series? Can we beat the Dallas Stars in a 7 games series? anyone can beat anyone in a 7 game series.... There's alot more to it then just yes or no. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WTG Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 The thing is nobody knows what Benning is doing. Some think he is rebuilding, some say he is rebuilding and some say he is going to give younger guys tougher roles okay this one. lol im sorry if you think Hansen or Higgins will be benched over a younger player eg Virtanen than seriously give your head a shake. In-fact Hansen and Higgins will get more ice time than ever next year, just watch. Baertschi will be the Kassian on the team next year! Eg he will have talent but management will say things like he is not playing a complete game Higgins and Hansen will be treated like gods again Sbisa will play the powerplay and Bartwoksi will be Lidster's main man next year because you know its Lidster. Finally, I see Vey breaking out next year, I just do because he has hockey iq but who knows. Also, Taylor Fedun will do decent on Utica, but Weber will hog is his spot and when big games come up he will go back to being a minus player because again Lidster can't asses skill. Lidster is a problem you will see it next year. What's the deal with Hansen and Higgins? Hansen was a on-ice leader for Horvat. I'd love him to stick around. He's also very good on the PK and defensively. He puts up decent point totals and makes others around him better. Higgins I can understand. He should not have been played in the top 6. I wouldn't be against trading him. But in no way should Higgins or Hansen be benched/traded in favor of the 2 goons. Prust and Dorsett are both paid more than Higgins or Hansen but they are inferior hockey players. It's a joke that they are even on the team. Overpaid face punchers that bring nothing to the team aside from being nice to young players off the ice. Agree with the Sbisa/Bartwoksi thing. They are both terrible should have kept Stanton for cheaper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
messier's_elbow Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 I see Bennings plan, but feel we need to trade atleast 1 or 2 more vets before the season starts. Virtanen, Kenins, Grenier, should be ready to play with the team this season. I feel we should add a few of them this season and a couple next season, instead of adding 4 or 5 next season. Atleast 1 of Cassels, Shink, McCann, Gaunce will be ready next season. Hopefully Higgins is traded and maybe Hansen.. Don't want to see Hansen go, but there's really no one else to move..If we can get a third for Higgins to Make some room I'm good with that. Unless someone overpays I'd like to keep Hansen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiznak Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 The only mistake Benning made was keeping Miller over Lack. You don't keep a goalie, who is past his prime yeas, over a younger goalie, who is hitting his strides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desiboynux4lifee******* Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 The only mistake Benning made was keeping Miller over Lack. You don't keep a goalie, who is past his prime yeas, over a younger goalie, who is hitting his strides. But management believes this team can do damage in the playoffs.That's why they kept Miller the more experienced goal-tender. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiznak Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 But management believes this team can do damage in the playoffs.That's why they kept Miller the more experienced goal-tender. Have you seen Miller's playoffs numbers lately? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desiboynux4lifee******* Posted August 7, 2015 Share Posted August 7, 2015 Have you seen Miller's playoffs numbers lately? Me personally yes, but I don't think management cares about Miller's playoffs numbers. I am confuseddddddd! im done typing in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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