Crabcakes Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 FWIW, how do the Canucks stack up? All star center - Horvat All star centre Power forward - Virtanen? Specialist Offensive D- Juolevi Defensive D - Tanev or..... Tryamkin, Gudbranson Goalie - Demko Other noteables: Boeser, Gaudette (McGuire is losing his sh!t over this guy, lol), Is Sutter a specialist? meh I think we could argue that the Canucks are further along than the Leafs then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHL rocks Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 1 minute ago, 189lb enforcers? said: If the Leafs got Laine or Tkachuck, then it's still a success. Still ahead. Its not all luck. It's finishing low and picking high. Best odds. It worked. Give em credit. Sure, I have been a big proponent of building thru the draft for a long time on these boards. We finished 3rd worst, WPG I think was 6th worst, they still got Laine, so luck plays a huge part. Oilers got three 1st overalls but they didn't get the game breaker until they lucked out with McDavid and they finished 3rd worst that year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crabcakes Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 3 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said: Please do the canucks now. Try not to use college prospects, but NHLers... since the thread is full of bad comparisons of rebuild paces! I've used in the system, even unsigned, because I'm such an insufferable optimist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
189lb enforcers? Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 I don't see any of those Canuck rebuild kid's leading any scoring race other than Horvat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crabcakes Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 2 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said: I don't see any of those Canuck rebuild kid's leading any scoring race other than Horvat. Horvat is going to be a helluva player but I don't really see him leading a scoring race. Virtanen was intended to be the power forward but will he become that guy? This is my opinion, I can see that Benning has had certain players in mind for certain roles but only time will tell if they will eventually fill the role that he had in mind. So, it is hard to do this exercise right now. Boeser is a sniper. That is not on McGuire's list as essentials. Many GM's love to have one. Kane would be one for example. Nylander too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crabcakes Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 You could call Horvat a power forward. The man/kid plays like a bull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crabcakes Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 15 minutes ago, WHL rocks said: Sure, I have been a big proponent of building thru the draft for a long time on these boards. We finished 3rd worst, WPG I think was 6th worst, they still got Laine, so luck plays a huge part. Oilers got three 1st overalls but they didn't get the game breaker until they lucked out with McDavid and they finished 3rd worst that year. Proof that picking 1st OA isn't the Holy Grail Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHL rocks Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 6 minutes ago, Crabcakes said: Proof that picking 1st OA isn't the Holy Grail Yes, I don't think too many people claim it its. Depends on the talent available any given year. This year there is not gamebreaker type of player available in the draft. I'd say Hischier is the closest but who knows. Last year there were 2 or 3 players. Luck and timing obviously play a big role. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crabcakes Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 22 minutes ago, WHL rocks said: Yes, I don't think too many people claim it its. Depends on the talent available any given year. This year there is not gamebreaker type of player available in the draft. I'd say Hischier is the closest but who knows. Last year there were 2 or 3 players. Luck and timing obviously play a big role. A lot of people talk like a 1st OA is the Holy Grail. Thoughtful people clearly know that it depends. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DownUndaCanuck Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 As much as I dislike the Leafs, they've certainly done a better job in the last few years drafting and putting a team together. They're just missing defence and goaltending which is funnily enough the one strong-suit of the Canucks. A trade between the teams would make a world of sense in the off-season now (eg. Tanev for Nylander etc...) When you look at building a future stud core it's easy to compare what the Leafs and Canucks have to what the Penguins/Blackhawks/Kings have created. At the end of the day a good core needs the following: 1 - Star top line center. Ideally someone with adequate defence and can score 60-90 points 2 - Decent second line center. Ideally someone who can play a shutdown role, kill penalties too 3 - Top-6 forward who can really put up some offence. Can be a center, can be a winger, just someone with pure high-end offensive talent 4 - Another top-6 forward OR top-4 defenceman 5 - Star defenceman. Ideally a Norris-nominee calibre defenceman. 6 - Great top-2 defenceman 7 - Goalie, doesn't have to be Vezina-calibre just red-hot in the playoffs Now lets look at what the Leafs have put together for now and the future: 1 - Star top line center: Matthews. Hands down, generational player, good defence will come so he'll fit this bill perfectly. 2 - Decent second line center: Marner. His defence isn't great, certainly not a good PKer or grinder though, but can put up a point per game 3 - Top-6 forward: Nylander: Elite passing and powerplay specialist 4 - Top-6 forward: This team needs some better defence from the forwards and will either have to lean on Kadri to perfect his shutdown role (which he's done a good job of this year) or find a big gritty shutdown guy. Boyle is a nice addition but is really for the present, not the future. This is the one spot they're lacking - D from the forwards, and they could use a shutdown guy in their top-6, for example someone like Hossa would be PERFECT 5 - Star defenceman: Lacking here. Gardiner is good not great. Zaitsev is promising but no Norris guy. Same can be said for Reilly. All top-20 to top-30 D-men but they need a top-3 guy. 6 - Great top-2 D-man: They've got plenty of these, as mentioned above 7 - Hot goalie: This is the wildcard, anything could happen. They'd probably be best to sign a UFA here. Summary: They need a defensive forward up front, a star defenceman and a red-hot goalie if they want to make a serious Cup run. They've got the star center, offensive help and good depth defencemen. Now look at the Canucks, who seem a bit further off: 1 - Star center: Arguable, but I'd say we're missing this so far. 2 - Second line center: One of the best in the NHL in Bo Hovat. Could be a first line center but he fits the role of shutdown center so perfectly. We really just need a skilled center to complement Horvat, similar to Crosby-Malkin, Henrik-Kesler, Getzlaf-Kesler etc. That two-way punch is essential, and we have one half of it so far. 3 - Top-6 forward: Got a few in the mix, Goldobin, Boeser, Baertschi, Granlund are all good nominees for this spot. 4 - Top-6 forward: As above. Got the top-4 D-men as well 5 - Star defenceman: Don't really have one of these yet. A franchise D-man is what it takes and while Stecher, Tryamkin, Hutton and co. are all promising, I doubt any of them end up having a Karlsson or Burns-like season. Got time though so you never know, but it's unlikely. 6 - Top-2 D-men: Like the Leafs we've got plenty of these guys 7 - Hot goalie: We've seen what Markstrom, Miller and even Demko now in the AHL can do. I think we're covered here. Summary: Missing a star center and star defenceman but otherwise sorted. TL;DR - The Leafs are missing a two-way forward and star D-man and good goalie but much closer to their core's prime. The Canucks are missing a star center, star-Dman but that's about it, but are further from their prime. I'd say both teams have done well, Toronto has far more top-end talent due to high picks and simply better drafting than the Canucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHL rocks Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 I"ve been saying this for a couple of years now and continue to believe Tavares will sign in TO as UFA at end of next year. Mathews and Tavares as the top 2 Cs would make that team a powerhouse. They can trade Kardi for a good Dman and make some other moves to shore up the D. Leafs are going to be a very good team in a couple of years. They are well ahead of the Canucks obviously but they're still missing some key pieces to the Stanley Cup puzzle. If anyone can do it it's Lou, Babs and Shanny. That's a very good management team over there and they are committed to a proper rebuild. Babcock said many times that he got guarantees before he signed on that there would be no quick fixes or patch ups. They will build it the right way and that's to build thru the draft and supplement via trades and UFA signings when the right time comes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
189lb enforcers? Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Heck, even I'd watch Toronto play if they signed Tavares. They have elite players, rookies. Cheap rookies. They have nothing but time and money to supplement their roster and hope to attract some college kids of their own. On on the other hand, the Canucks have 7million dollar players on NTCs, a 60 year old goalie with a good older back-up in Marky... and a prospect who isn't wowing anyone. To call the goal position set is optimistic. Prospects are prospects. Nothing is, set. The Canucks D is a workhorse of defensive D men mixed with some soft, smallish players which are more similar to Yannick Weber than they are to Subban. I don't see much cause to celebrate just yet because of the lack of core there. Olli, another prospect, has as much chance of becoming an impact player, as not. The Canucks could possibly catch up quickly by trading this year's 1st rounder, Hutton, Tanev and or Barcheese, for example, for a collection of picks and prospects. They have options and are finally looking like a team willing to bottom-out rather than maintain the core and their most tradeable vets. This didn't have to wait until 2017 to move their most valued assets to get the rebuild going, but they did. It cost them. You don't need luck to finish bottom 5 and land an impact player, but you do to get the lotto pick. Either way, you're in a position to win at the draft. The Shanaplan worked. The luck, in that they got Austin over the Fin, is a big part of their success, but not their strategy to get "lucky". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReggieBush Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 11 hours ago, Crabcakes said: Horvat is going to be a helluva player but I don't really see him leading a scoring race. Virtanen was intended to be the power forward but will he become that guy? This is my opinion, I can see that Benning has had certain players in mind for certain roles but only time will tell if they will eventually fill the role that he had in mind. So, it is hard to do this exercise right now. Boeser is a sniper. That is not on McGuire's list as essentials. Many GM's love to have one. Kane would be one for example. Nylander too. When was the last time Kopitar or Toews lead a scoring race? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
189lb enforcers? Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 21 minutes ago, ReggieBush said: When was the last time Kopitar or Toews lead a scoring race? Or Perry or Kane getting the Selke? Doesnt change the point about the composition of a champion team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReggieBush Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 3 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said: Or Perry or Kane getting the Selke? Doesnt change the point about the composition of a champion team. The point that I am trying to make is that 1st line centers do not necessarily need to win the Art Ross. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
189lb enforcers? Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 15 minutes ago, ReggieBush said: The point that I am trying to make is that 1st line centers do not necessarily need to win the Art Ross. And That was apparent, but we know this. Horvat is a rare breed. Toews light, maybe more. How lucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sbriggs Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 On 12/4/2016 at 6:38 PM, LaBamba said: Id say they are closer to the Hawks than our sorry a$$es. Ya right because of one draft pick........Give us Matthews and see where the Laughs are? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
189lb enforcers? Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 1 minute ago, Sbriggs said: Ya right because of one draft pick........Give us Matthews and see where the Laughs are? What if they had Laine or Tkachuck? You get my point Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sbriggs Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Just now, 189lb enforcers? said: What if they had Laine or Tkachuck? You get my point No I don't, the Leafs like the Oilers were lucky to get franchise players and if they didn't, well you know how its gone for the Oilers and the Leafs have been rebuilding for a decade I guess they should be ahead of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
189lb enforcers? Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 Just now, Sbriggs said: No I don't, the Leafs like the Oilers were lucky to get franchise players and if they didn't, well you know how its gone for the Oilers and the Leafs have been rebuilding for a decade I guess they should be ahead of us. You can lead a horse to water... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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