Gaudette Celly Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 4 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said: You make reasonable points, sure, but I will continue to disagree that JB dealt with exchanging the core out with the same rigour as Shanny. What possible rationale can you use to substantiate that when over the same timeframe the Canucks now have but FOUR players remaining yet Toronto has 7-8? Because Shanahan had to give away some of them for next to nothing and soak up tonnes of retained salary and cap while Benning didn't? Benning forced at least 2 of them out against their will and still got good value in return without anything retained. The facts and plain numbers are clearly not in your favour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 1 minute ago, Hutton Wink said: What possible rationale can you use to substantiate that when over the same timeframe the Canucks now have but FOUR players remaining yet Toronto has 7-8? Because Shanahan had to give away some of them for next to nothing and soak up tonnes of retained salary and cap while Benning didn't? Benning forced at least 2 of them out against their will and still got good value in return without anything retained. The facts and plain numbers are clearly not in your favour. Core for us are the Twins. Core for the Leafs was Kessel and Phaneuf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 1 minute ago, Hutton Wink said: What possible rationale can you use to substantiate that when over the same timeframe the Canucks now have but FOUR players remaining yet Toronto has 7-8? Because Shanahan had to give away some of them for next to nothing and soak up tonnes of retained salary and cap while Benning didn't? Benning forced at least 2 of them out against their will and still got good value in return without anything retained. The facts and plain numbers are clearly not in your favour. Leaf-fluffers are having a hard time coping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 3 minutes ago, Alflives said: Core for us are the Twins. Core for the Leafs was Kessel and Phaneuf. Spam for us is ham for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 19 minutes ago, Hutton Wink said: What possible rationale can you use to substantiate that when over the same timeframe the Canucks now have but FOUR players remaining yet Toronto has 7-8? Because Shanahan had to give away some of them for next to nothing and soak up tonnes of retained salary and cap while Benning didn't? Benning forced at least 2 of them out against their will and still got good value in return without anything retained. The facts and plain numbers are clearly not in your favour. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Westcoasting Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 Its so easy for the media to pick Toronto... Take away Austin Matthews and have them pick at third or fourth and it's a totally different conversation they have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 7 minutes ago, Westcoasting said: Its so easy for the media to pick Toronto... Take away Austin Matthews and have them pick at third or fourth and it's a totally different conversation they have. But the genius of the master plan of winning the lottery (as if last gives you better than 20% odds.) That they're already renting players makes me wonder how deluded they truly are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 4 hours ago, 189lb enforcers? said: You make reasonable points, sure, but I will continue to disagree that JB dealt with exchanging the core out with the same rigour as Shanny. I think we differ on the aspect of what constitutes a "wholesale" change in direction, never mind, when. Your list of exodus, fringe, role-players meant as proof of rebuilding humours me. That's no core turn over to me. To each, their own. TO traded its stars well well after the list of ineffectual plugs and transient pieces. You've made no admission on the quality, just the quantity. Our team has only begun to do this, but still has its best D and forwards intact. Toronto was floundering for years, but with some hints of success. They've not been a Colorado or Airizona. They would have, maybe, but their rookies are instead kicking ass. Their prospects are so good that they're not prospects. What horrible luck, huh, the way you guys make it sound. Biased. Again, I know which roster I'd take, even if Austin was traded out for Tkachuck or any other pick from that top 5. Pretty easy to insulate a core with Boyles rather than insulate Sutters with Granlunds. Burrows and Hansen signalled the throwing in if the towel, something Shanny did a long, long time ago. That is why they are pacing ahead in the rebuild... not because they traded Bell or Gill, but because they traded out their core. If if one of you can just admit here that *it could have been a faster rebuild* had JB's moves started sooner, we will have something in common. And as I already showed, has been going on in TO for years. 17 players traded at 6 deadlines before Shanny. And the number of players on the current roster drafted before Shanny took over shows that he already had a head start on what Benning started with. Which is why Benning moved pieces out over a three year period in stead of one foul swoop. There was nothing in the system to replace them with. Sure we'd get a higher pick if we moved everybody out to start. But he'd have the Skille's and Bartkowski's of the league to play with. Benning started moving players as soon as he took over. I can't admit it would have been faster as it wouldn't have been. Because there was nothing there to start with but Bo. Benning had to rebuild an entire team and a prospect pool to boot. That isn't going to happen in two years. Shanny already had young players on the team and more in the system. That's a pretty good head start on us. The real truth is with all the trade deadline deals and high picks, before Shanny took over, they should be far further along. Bad drafting and bad management. Shanny has had the easy part - top picks. It's typically pretty easy picking in the top 5. We'll see down the road if he's any better than TO's previous management at drafting when later picks turn out or not. How many Shanny draft picks are on current the TO roster? Three - 8th overall, 4th overall, and 1st overall. Not a huge accomplishment. Like I said, we'll know in a few years if Shanny is actually any better at drafting than the previous regime. Now count up the number of previous regime picks on their roster and compare it to previous regime picks on our roster. I'll help you out - we have three to their ten. And several of their ten are young veterans. We have Horvat 3rd year, Hutton 2nd year, and Gaunce first year. That's of a lot of draft suckage under Gillis and why we are, and should be, behind Toronto in rebuilding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 1 hour ago, Alflives said: Core for us are the Twins. Core for the Leafs was Kessel and Phaneuf. Are you telling us a teams "core" is only two players??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
189lb enforcers? Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 1 hour ago, Hutton Wink said: What possible rationale can you use to substantiate that when over the same timeframe the Canucks now have but FOUR players remaining yet Toronto has 7-8? Because Shanahan had to give away some of them for next to nothing and soak up tonnes of retained salary and cap while Benning didn't? Benning forced at least 2 of them out against their will and still got good value in return without anything retained. The facts and plain numbers are clearly not in your favour. I've made my point around who was traded, not how many. Trading the core vs trading away Gill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 37 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said: I've made my point around who was traded, not how many. Trading the core vs trading away Gill. Sounds to me like your trying (poorly I might add) to win an argument vs actually uncover knowledge. Fill your boots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocksterh8 Posted March 10, 2017 Share Posted March 10, 2017 On 2016-12-04 at 6:55 PM, DeNiro said: He's hardly going to keep us from drafting high. More like a stop gap so that we don't have to force Virtanen onto the roster. A Stop gap? for 6 years and 36 Million? Sounds more like an anchor to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crabcakes Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 5 hours ago, oldnews said: But the genius of the master plan of winning the lottery (as if last gives you better than 20% odds.) That they're already renting players makes me wonder how deluded they truly are. The Leafs have gathered a core. Now they need to get them playing in meaningful games. Being competitive. Playing in the playoffs. This came from Babcock and he's right of course. The Leafs need some supporting cast veterans to help take the kids to the next level. It irony here is......of course.....that this is exactly what the Canucks have been trying to do for Bo Horvat and others for the last couple of years. Develop in a competitive environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crabcakes Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 6 hours ago, Alflives said: Core for us are the Twins. Core for the Leafs was Kessel and Phaneuf. If core to you is the couple of players that you build a team around, yes. Core to most people is the 6 or 7 indispensable pieces that form the basis of a championship team. McGuires 7 key pieces (for example) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
189lb enforcers? Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 32 minutes ago, Crabcakes said: If core to you is the couple of players that you build a team around, yes. Core to most people is the 6 or 7 indispensable pieces that form the basis of a championship team. McGuires 7 key pieces (for example) I thought it went without saying that it wasn't two players. Does anyone else agree that TO has a core already? I think it's pretty much there, with the bulk of it coming in the 3 Shanny years. They have as many drafts left as the Canucks to improve it too. Hate to say it, but I watched their Philly game and was impressed with their team. After a life of hating the blue and white, it was hard to admit that I liked what I saw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 50 minutes ago, Crabcakes said: The Leafs have gathered a core. Now they need to get them playing in meaningful games. Being competitive. Playing in the playoffs. This came from Babcock and he's right of course. The Leafs need some supporting cast veterans to help take the kids to the next level. It irony here is......of course.....that this is exactly what the Canucks have been trying to do for Bo Horvat and others for the last couple of years. Develop in a competitive environment. You whiffed on the point. Renting players for a fantasy playoff run is premature and ill advised while they clearly and obviously still need to add pieces to their rebuild. Do you think they're ready to go on a playoff run? The irony - they're a middling team that just spent as much on rentals as the Canucks did in years they were contending lol. The ironing. Do they think they're ready to spend futures on rentals? Cracks me up to hear people here apologize for this after selling the need to stock pile picks so hard. Comical really. The rebuild is done! Go Leafs! Cup ready! Why wait until the off season to add pieces for the future? Their window has opened! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
189lb enforcers? Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 2 minutes ago, oldnews said: You whiffed on the point. Renting players for a fantasy playoff run is premature and ill advised while they clearly and obviously still need to add pieces to their rebuild. Do you think they're ready to go on a playoff run? The irony - they're a middling team that just spent as much on rentals as the Canucks did in years they were contending lol. The ironing. Do they think they're ready to spend futures on rentals? Cracks me up to hear people here apologize for this after selling the need to stock pile picks so hard. Comical really. The rebuild is done! Go Leafs! Cup ready! Why wait until the off season to add pieces for the future? Their body is ready! Are they just renting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crabcakes Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 5 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said: I thought it went without saying that it wasn't two players. Does anyone else agree that TO has a core already? I think it's pretty much there, with the bulk of it coming in the 3 Shanny years. They have as many drafts left as the Canucks to improve it too. Hate to say it, but I watched their Philly game and was impressed with their team. After a life of hating the blue and white, it was hard to admit that I liked what I saw. By Alf's definition, the championship Bruin's no star team didn't have a core unless you call it Chara. If one looks at the evolution of the Blackhawks, since they have shed their supporting cast a couple of times, it is fairly easy to identify their core and it's not just Toews and Kane. I would agree, the Leafs have most of their core assembled. Are they missing a defenseman, power forward or defensive specialist? And probably goaltending is missing still. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
189lb enforcers? Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 2 minutes ago, oldnews said: You whiffed on the point. Renting players for a fantasy playoff run is premature and ill advised while they clearly and obviously still need to add pieces to their rebuild. Do you think they're ready to go on a playoff run? The irony - they're a middling team that just spent as much on rentals as the Canucks did in years they were contending lol. The ironing. Do they think they're ready to spend futures on rentals? Cracks me up to hear people here apologize for this after selling the need to stock pile picks so hard. Comical really. The rebuild is done! Go Leafs! Cup ready! Why wait until the off season to add pieces for the future? Their body is ready! To your last sentence: Theyre not done, but they are close! A few good pick ups and FA's will go a long ways with what they already have. Add a few more years of drafting and that roster of kids, insulated by readily available spare parts, like Boyle, is looking great in a very short incubation period, compared to some. Why you guys beat on that roster is beyond my concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted March 11, 2017 Share Posted March 11, 2017 4 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said: Are they just renting? Tough one for Leafs game like yourself I imagine. Boyle is an expiring contract, and a bottom six on top of that. At least Ottawa extended Burrows as part of their deal. Toronto - should have taken notes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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