Warhippy Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 35 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said: It wasn't a back and fourth as I didn't disagree with you. In fact I'm pretty sure I liked your idea. Rafale has withdrew as they feel it's to difficult to incorporate their jet to Canadian needs and wants. Rafale/Dassault is out then? I wasn't entirely sold on them but it makes sense due to the needs Canada has set down for criteria That really leaves America, The Typhoon and Gripen. I am still unsure about the Gripen as it has some logistical issues and with Bolsonaro in office in Brazil and one of the most essential criteria being unmet due to the single engine of the Gripen IK can see it being narrowed down to a fight between Lockheed and Boeing and the Typhoon and with the promise of R&D and actual manufacturing jobs plus the new partnership between Bombardier/Airbus it just makes sense. But that being said I would not put anything past our government in terms of leveraging a purchase through US arms in Lockheed or Boeing against Tariffs or punitive measures the US administration has slapped on canada. Essentially we buy from you, you drop them entirely. Here though is a defence paper in recommendation of the Gripen so.... http://www.canadiandefencereview.com/Featured_content?blog/110 Whether it's a good idea to us or not we don't get a say do we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeromotacanucks Posted January 15, 2019 Share Posted January 15, 2019 9 minutes ago, Warhippy said: Rafale/Dassault is out then? I wasn't entirely sold on them but it makes sense due to the needs Canada has set down for criteria That really leaves America, The Typhoon and Gripen. I am still unsure about the Gripen as it has some logistical issues and with Bolsonaro in office in Brazil and one of the most essential criteria being unmet due to the single engine of the Gripen IK can see it being narrowed down to a fight between Lockheed and Boeing and the Typhoon and with the promise of R&D and actual manufacturing jobs plus the new partnership between Bombardier/Airbus it just makes sense. But that being said I would not put anything past our government in terms of leveraging a purchase through US arms in Lockheed or Boeing against Tariffs or punitive measures the US administration has slapped on canada. Essentially we buy from you, you drop them entirely. Here though is a defence paper in recommendation of the Gripen so.... http://www.canadiandefencereview.com/Featured_content?blog/110 Whether it's a good idea to us or not we don't get a say do we? De deal with the Gripen not only involves the fighter itself but also a long partnership with SAAB It's a technology transfer any after the initial 36 jets the remaining ones will be made locally by EMBRAER adapting it to local conditions, a 2 seater Gripen and a Sea version of it meaning Brazil didn't buy only a jet but the entire platform of it... This will be the 1st step so in a near future Embraer can make new supersonic jets by itself It's like China making Chinese versions of Russian Sukhois. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattJVD Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 8 hours ago, Ryan Strome said: It is possible and it's a great jet, possibly the best dog fighter in the world and twin engine. But it is an expensive jet. Cheaper than an F-35 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliboy Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 6 hours ago, Ryan Strome said: I have a feeling whoever wins the election will stay away from Boeing on the fear of making Quebec mad. Lockheed Martin can't promise any contracts, so at this point it's likely between the Gripen and the Eurofighter. Lockheed can't promise any contracts? Parts for the F-35 are already made in Canada, the question is, will we lose those contracts if we don't purchase the jet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Just now, aliboy said: Lockheed can't promise any contracts? Parts for the F-35 are already made in Canada, the question is, will we lose those contracts if we don't purchase the jet. No, because we're part of the contracted R&D investment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliboy Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, Warhippy said: No, because we're part of the contracted R&D investment So even if that is the case, the point is that Lockheed already has given us contracts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliboy Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, Ryan Strome said: It is possible and it's a great jet, possibly the best dog fighter in the world and twin engine. But it is an expensive jet. What we should want, in my opinion, is a fighter that doesn't have to dog fight, but can lock up an enemy jet wherever it is, no need to get cross-hairs on the aircraft. Using SPECTRA, the Rafale could fire on an enemy directly behind, without breaking stride, but it dropped out because of the level of seamless communications required with the Americans. The F-35 doesn't have to dogfight, it's designed to kill the other guy before he knows it's there. Now I do believe the Typhoon can lock up without dog fighting also, but I just think the ability to dog fight is not right at the top of the list, as most of these jets are pretty good. Here's the proof for Rafale firing directing behind the aircraft. Here is the source. http://www.defesanet.com.br/ho/noticia/18206/What-does-Egypt-get-for-choosing-the-Rafale---Dassault’s-fighter-jet-/ Here is the quote. Look under, Rafale and Mirage 2000 C RDI ready for take off in Istres Air Force Base During our assessments, we performed BVR and WVR engagements with the Mirage 2000 C RDI, where we had the opportunity to confirm the combination of the sensibility of SPECTRA EW with the all-aspect launching and target acquisition of MICA IR. This allowed us to designate the target from any source (EM / IR / Laser Threat Detection - Electromagnetic Threat Detection / Infrared / Laser), when the security bubble around the Rafale was invaded, and to execute the missile launch “over the shoulder.” Over the shoulder means that a MICA can be fired at a target located at position six o’clock (behind the aircraft) without changing flight direction. Edited January 16, 2019 by aliboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 1 hour ago, MattJVD said: Cheaper than an F-35 Actually it isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattJVD Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Ryan Strome said: Actually it isn't. I stand corrected. I hadn't looked at pricing in some time, the F35 seems like a bargin now, especially with unit cost projected to be US $80 million in the 2020s. At the time of our ogininal purchase comitment, the F35 was more like US $140 million, to the Eurofighter's €90 million. Edited January 16, 2019 by MattJVD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 (edited) 10 hours ago, MattJVD said: I stand corrected. I hadn't looked at pricing in some time, the F35 seems like a bargin now, especially with unit cost projected to be US $80 million in the 2020s. At the time of our ogininal purchase comitment, the F35 was more like US $140 million, to the Eurofighter's €90 million. Ya the F35 is a lot cheaper now but it's flight hour cost is pretty high. Edited January 16, 2019 by Ryan Strome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 (edited) 15 hours ago, aliboy said: Lockheed can't promise any contracts? Parts for the F-35 are already made in Canada, the question is, will we lose those contracts if we don't purchase the jet. They can't offer a technology transfer or any extra work for Canadians. It's not to say will gain work they just can't commit to it during the bid. Yes they have already threatened us with losing contracts. 15 hours ago, Warhippy said: No, because we're part of the contracted R&D investment Edited January 16, 2019 by Ryan Strome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 7 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said: They can't offer a technology transfer or any extra work for Canadians. It's not to say will gain work they just can't commit to it during the bid. Yes they have already threatened us with losing contracts. That flies in the face of the contracts we've signed and the money we've invested. The courts would love that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 1 minute ago, Warhippy said: That flies in the face of the contracts we've signed and the money we've invested. The courts would love that. The f35 program is totally screwed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliboy Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 5 minutes ago, Warhippy said: That flies in the face of the contracts we've signed and the money we've invested. The courts would love that. We joined as a partner nation, with the understanding that we would purchase the aircraft, and got contracts on that basis. Now if we don't purchase the aircraft, and drop out as a partner nation, it remains to be seen what will happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 15 hours ago, aliboy said: What we should want, in my opinion, is a fighter that doesn't have to dog fight, but can lock up an enemy jet wherever it is, no need to get cross-hairs on the aircraft. Using SPECTRA, the Rafale could fire on an enemy directly behind, without breaking stride, but it dropped out because of the level of seamless communications required with the Americans. The F-35 doesn't have to dogfight, it's designed to kill the other guy before he knows it's there. Now I do believe the Typhoon can lock up without dog fighting also, but I just think the ability to dog fight is not right at the top of the list, as most of these jets are pretty good. Here's the proof for Rafale firing directing behind the aircraft. Here is the source. http://www.defesanet.com.br/ho/noticia/18206/What-does-Egypt-get-for-choosing-the-Rafale---Dassault’s-fighter-jet-/ Here is the quote. Look under, Rafale and Mirage 2000 C RDI ready for take off in Istres Air Force Base During our assessments, we performed BVR and WVR engagements with the Mirage 2000 C RDI, where we had the opportunity to confirm the combination of the sensibility of SPECTRA EW with the all-aspect launching and target acquisition of MICA IR. This allowed us to designate the target from any source (EM / IR / Laser Threat Detection - Electromagnetic Threat Detection / Infrared / Laser), when the security bubble around the Rafale was invaded, and to execute the missile launch “over the shoulder.” Over the shoulder means that a MICA can be fired at a target located at position six o’clock (behind the aircraft) without changing flight direction. Rafale is working on a fifth generation jet with Germany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 47 minutes ago, aliboy said: We joined as a partner nation, with the understanding that we would purchase the aircraft, and got contracts on that basis. Now if we don't purchase the aircraft, and drop out as a partner nation, it remains to be seen what will happen. We would have to formally leave the venture though to my understanding. I could very well be wrong but that's my belief from what I've read since we entered this back in the early 2000s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan Strome Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 I'm now positive the typhoon will win this. Airbus open to a fighter plane assembly plant in Quebec ahead of federal bids MIRABEL, Que. -- Airbus is not ruling out the possibility that Quebec will host a fighter plane assembly line and satellite construction plant if the European giant manages to win federal contracts in Canada. https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/airbus-open-to-a-fighter-plane-assembly-plant-in-quebec-ahead-of-federal-bids-1.4253284 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeromotacanucks Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 (edited) 21 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said: I'm now positive the typhoon will win this. Airbus open to a fighter plane assembly plant in Quebec ahead of federal bids MIRABEL, Que. -- Airbus is not ruling out the possibility that Quebec will host a fighter plane assembly line and satellite construction plant if the European giant manages to win federal contracts in Canada. https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/airbus-open-to-a-fighter-plane-assembly-plant-in-quebec-ahead-of-federal-bids-1.4253284 Told you. It's like Boeing willing to make the F18 in Brazil if FAB decides for the F18 Airbus/EADS wants their fighter making success outside Europe and they will do everything possible to get a large contract... Edited January 16, 2019 by aeromotacanucks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aliboy Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 (edited) It's anything but a sure thing but the one huge advantage Typhoon had over the Rafale is that the Typhoon can already carry some of the US missiles, which matters a great deal to the RCAF. Edited January 16, 2019 by aliboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warhippy Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 50 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said: I'm now positive the typhoon will win this. Airbus open to a fighter plane assembly plant in Quebec ahead of federal bids MIRABEL, Que. -- Airbus is not ruling out the possibility that Quebec will host a fighter plane assembly line and satellite construction plant if the European giant manages to win federal contracts in Canada. https://www.ctvnews.ca/business/airbus-open-to-a-fighter-plane-assembly-plant-in-quebec-ahead-of-federal-bids-1.4253284 What do I win?? Bombardier sale of the c series seems brilliant now if this happens Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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