Popular Post CanadianRugby Posted April 13, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted April 13, 2018 On 2018-04-11 at 9:30 PM, Rob_Zepp said: As far as adding picks, if you were paying ANY attention you will have heard your GM note that he tried to do so and simply there were not moves available. Perhaps he could have flipped Horvat, Juolevi or Boeser for picks but he likely judged that to be bad asset management. All he really has is youth that would interest other teams - trading youth for picks can burn you badly, the opposite more often than note works out better. Four years to add picks and this is what it looks like. Amazing that a team coming off recent back to back President's trophies apparently had 0 assets to give up for a draft pick. Yet the perennially awful Leafs drafted 12 times in the top 100 over 2 seasons. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Rob_Zepp Posted April 13, 2018 Popular Post Share Posted April 13, 2018 11 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said: Four years to add picks and this is what it looks like. Amazing that a team coming off recent back to back President's trophies apparently had 0 assets to give up for a draft pick. Yet the perennially awful Leafs drafted 12 times in the top 100 over 2 seasons. Yup, amazing that one regime who didn't stock the shelves at all handcuffed the new regime to bring in some talent as draft picks alone cannot fill an NHL line up as you cannot field a team of all 18 year olds. Also, amazing that you can't trade what you don't have. Kesler did bring back a first rounder mind you. Baer remains a better option than the second rounders taken in his place and Guddy has yet to hit his stride but will be just fine. I know you will NEVER acknowledge that a known commodity is a better bet sometimes than a draft pick - you will simply always refer back to Linden Vey. Poor kid and what happened to him that messed up his career - but at least you get to go on about it even if it is ancient history in the hockey world sense. Go back to PlayStation and/or follow the Leafs. Clearly one of those two options are the only thing that will ever appease you as building a team any other way seems an entirely foreign concept to you. You cannot see the growth of the Canuck organization over the past few years. You cannot acknowledge the unprecedented upper tier prospect pool. You fail to understand the fundamental change out that has occurred, and quite quickly, in both style of play and expectation of the players. In some ways the statistically freakish number of injuries this year to key players was a good thing as it kept the Canucks at lottery team but it also is unfortunate that they couldn't have been able to shove 90ish points down your craw as that would simply kill your narrative. Have fun with the Leafs in the playoffs. Go on again how much better Nylander is than Virtanen - ignore the fact that Nylander was not only invisible this morning, he looked like a boy among men and the two-footed flamingo move is something you get benched for in Pee-Wee let alone as a professional. As always with you, consider joining 2018 where the Canucks are an exciting young team with so much potential coming up through the ranks it is hard to wait until next season to start. Stay put in your Gillis/2014/15 transition period and fail to recognize the absolutely bare cupboards the new management team had to work with AND deal with an owner who was used to winning and wanted another run. Oh and, Go Leafs Go....right? 2 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianRugby Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 On 2018-04-11 at 11:24 PM, TheYjUstMaKeYoUwooZy said: "Trading picks for players that will have no impact on a team when its competitive?" Are you playing a video game? Are we suppose to just throw rookies in and see how they do. Don't bring them up in a competitive environment around other decent regular NHL's they can learn from? So we just sign some loser 4th liners and sit at the bottom for 3-4 years until you get your talent and then magically in one off season build a team around them? Toronto didn't even do that and they have BABCOCK. I'd rather sign some loser 4th liners and sit at the bottom for 3-4 years, than trade picks for some loser 4th liners and sit at the bottom for 3-4 years. On 2018-04-11 at 11:24 PM, TheYjUstMaKeYoUwooZy said: The players we traded picks for have a chance at being a lot better than the picks we traded. When our new core makes these players redundant we can then TRADE them for more draft picks to KEEP the cupboards full. Heck if we let them develop enough we might even get BETTER picks than we used to get them. You are not realistic in any way. And the way you think makes me believe you have no clue about personal, player or athlete development. No you don't just throw in rookies. Though instead of trading draft picks, the lifeblood of a rebuild... for marginal players that will have no impact on the rebuild. You sign free agents, like we did this last offseason. Sorry Benning loyalists but you don't get to argue that both Benning is great at drafting, but then marginalize draft picks, the most important things in a rebuild. The players we traded for have a chance at being a lot better than the picks we traded? Sorry but who are these great players? Baertschi? Vey? Sutter? Gudbranson? Prust? These guys are better than the guys we're drafting to be our next core? That's pretty ominous for our future. You can't argue that Benning is amazing at drafting, and that our prospect pool looks great... then argue that the 3rd liners we've been trading for are potentially much better then the players we've been drafting. BTW, Benning looks to have drafted a good player with every 2nd round pick he's made for the Canucks. Yet when he trades these picks away, suddenly they have no value? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianRugby Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 6 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said: Yup, amazing that one regime who didn't stock the shelves at all handcuffed the new regime to bring in some talent as draft picks alone cannot fill an NHL line up as you cannot field a team of all 18 year olds. Why do you keep acting like either you have to trade your draft picks for players, or "field" a team of 18 year olds. How does every other rebuilding team manage to "field" a team without trading their draft picks away? 6 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said: Also, amazing that you can't trade what you don't have. Kesler did bring back a first rounder mind you. Baer remains a better option than the second rounders taken in his place and Guddy has yet to hit his stride but will be just fine. I know you will NEVER acknowledge that a known commodity is a better bet sometimes than a draft pick - you will simply always refer back to Linden Vey. Poor kid and what happened to him that messed up his career - but at least you get to go on about it even if it is ancient history in the hockey world sense. OK. Our 2nd round picks under Benning are: Lind, Gadjovich and Demko. Who will have a bigger influence on the Canucks when they're ready to compete. Those guys or Baertschi & Vey? Vancouver has been the WORST TEAM IN THE LEAGUE over the last 3 years. Sutter, Dorsett, Gudbranson.. they've done nothing to make this team better. I'd rather Benning have more shots at drafting guys like Demko & Tryamkin than adding a 3rd liner that will be gone or at best past his limited prime by the time the team is good. 6 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said: Go back to PlayStation and/or follow the Leafs. Clearly one of those two options are the only thing that will ever appease you as building a team any other way seems an entirely foreign concept to you. You cannot see the growth of the Canuck organization over the past few years. You cannot acknowledge the unprecedented upper tier prospect pool. You fail to understand the fundamental change out that has occurred, and quite quickly, in both style of play and expectation of the players. In some ways the statistically freakish number of injuries this year to key players was a good thing as it kept the Canucks at lottery team but it also is unfortunate that they couldn't have been able to shove 90ish points down your craw as that would simply kill your narrative. Have fun with the Leafs in the playoffs. Go on again how much better Nylander is than Virtanen - ignore the fact that Nylander was not only invisible this morning, he looked like a boy among men and the two-footed flamingo move is something you get benched for in Pee-Wee let alone as a professional. As always with you, consider joining 2018 where the Canucks are an exciting young team with so much potential coming up through the ranks it is hard to wait until next season to start. Stay put in your Gillis/2014/15 transition period and fail to recognize the absolutely bare cupboards the new management team had to work with AND deal with an owner who was used to winning and wanted another run. Oh and, Go Leafs Go....right? "Go back to PlayStation" "building a team any other way seems an entirely foreign concept to you." Your argument works pretty well against yourself. I like the rebuild method that's won virtually all the Stanley Cups in the cap era. Yet I need to go back to playstation because I don't like the fact that we don't trade for picks when we're rebuilding? OK there bud. Injuries, refs, Bettman, previous regime. The 4 go to excuses for everything on CDC. Getting old. Any success and credit (rightfully) goes to Benning, any failure is not Benning's fault apparently though. Nylander is better than Virtanen, get over it. Hope Virtanen can be a late bloomer and will change that fact. Nylander was invisible last game? Well, he has back to back 20 goal 60 point seasons and you know scoring kind of helps when it comes to winning games, which you need to do to make the playoffs in the first place. He had a bad game though so what a bum though right? He does have 4 points in 7 playoff games and a 61.5 FO% but who cares about that eh. Wait, if Pettersson comes in and plays soft like Nylander is he a bum too? I'm sure Pettersson will be a physical beast though, I think he's up to 170lbs. Yeah too bad we didn't get 90 points to "shove it down my craw." Because that's what fans want around here, miss the playoffs AND get a bad pick. Yeah go leafs go, also go jets go. I cheer for the other Canadian teams as we're not in it. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 2 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said: Why do you keep acting like either you have to trade your draft picks for players, or "field" a team of 18 year olds. How does every other rebuilding team manage to "field" a team without trading their draft picks away? OK. Our 2nd round picks under Benning are: Lind, Gadjovich and Demko. Who will have a bigger influence on the Canucks when they're ready to compete. Those guys or Baertschi & Vey? Vancouver has been the WORST TEAM IN THE LEAGUE over the last 3 years. Sutter, Dorsett, Gudbranson.. they've done nothing to make this team better. I'd rather Benning have more shots at drafting guys like Demko & Tryamkin than adding a 3rd liner that will be gone or at best past his limited prime by the time the team is good. "Go back to PlayStation" "building a team any other way seems an entirely foreign concept to you." Your argument works pretty well against yourself. I like the rebuild method that's won virtually all the Stanley Cups in the cap era. Yet I need to go back to playstation because I don't like the fact that we don't trade for picks when we're rebuilding? OK there bud. Injuries, refs, Bettman, previous regime. The 4 go to excuses for everything on CDC. Getting old. Any success and credit (rightfully) goes to Benning, any failure is not Benning's fault apparently though. Nylander is better than Virtanen, get over it. Hope Virtanen can be a late bloomer and will change that fact. Nylander was invisible last game? Well, he has back to back 20 goal 60 point seasons and you know scoring kind of helps when it comes to winning games, which you need to do to make the playoffs in the first place. He had a bad game though so what a bum though right? He does have 4 points in 7 playoff games and a 61.5 FO% but who cares about that eh. Wait, if Pettersson comes in and plays soft like Nylander is he a bum too? I'm sure Pettersson will be a physical beast though, I think he's up to 170lbs. Yeah too bad we didn't get 90 points to "shove it down my craw." Because that's what fans want around here, miss the playoffs AND get a bad pick. Yeah go leafs go, also go jets go. I cheer for the other Canadian teams as we're not in it. I wonder what you will do if you ever do catch your tail. Have fun with it. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianRugby Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 39 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said: I wonder what you will do if you ever do catch your tail. Have fun with it. When you lose an argument but don't want to admit it. Post a gif or meme. 1 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, CanadianRugby said: When you lose an argument but don't want to admit it. Post a gif or meme. It’s become the waiving of the white flag. Edited April 13, 2018 by ForsbergTheGreat 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 7 hours ago, CanadianRugby said: OK. Our 2nd round picks under Benning are: Lind, Gadjovich and Demko. Who will have a bigger influence on the Canucks when they're ready to compete. Those guys or Baertschi & Vey? Do Lind, Gadjovich and Demko come with guarantees of stardom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanadianRugby Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 3 hours ago, Baggins said: Do Lind, Gadjovich and Demko come with guarantees of stardom? No. Do Baertschi and Vey? Can't brag about our prospect pool then dump on it the next minute. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alflives Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 7 minutes ago, CanadianRugby said: No. Do Baertschi and Vey? Can't brag about our prospect pool then dump on it the next minute. Totally agree. I really wish JB would have kept those second rounders he's traded away. Then we would have 2 Linds, 2 Gadjovic's, and 2 Demkos. Far more likely we get a couple top end guys out of 6 than out of 3. I think JB trading away picks (especially 2nd and 3rds) was a clear sign the team was not rebuilding a new core, but retooling around the old one. I wish we would have started the tear-down rebuild sooner (after the Calgary playoff loss) but I'm glad it's happening now. JB is proving to be a wizard at the draft. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adarsh Sant Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 12 hours ago, CanadianRugby said: Four years to add picks and this is what it looks like. Amazing that a team coming off recent back to back President's trophies apparently had 0 assets to give up for a draft pick. Yet the perennially awful Leafs drafted 12 times in the top 100 over 2 seasons. "Rebuild" 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
189lb enforcers? Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 5 hours ago, Adarsh Sant said: "Rebuild" Accidental Tanking 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 17 hours ago, CanadianRugby said: When you lose an argument but don't want to admit it. Post a gif or meme. Sorry, wasn't supposed to post the picture of you from your camera? Sorry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 10 hours ago, CanadianRugby said: No. Do Baertschi and Vey? Can't brag about our prospect pool then dump on it the next minute. That's actually the point. Scouting doesn't end at junior hockey and there isn't a GM, or scout, in league that gets every one right. Trading a pick for a good AHL prospect is no different than using the pick. Neither comes with a guarantee and either can be a success or failure. Btw, Vey finished 5th in points per game among forwards in the KHL this year. I suppose that makes him one of the KHL superstars. Maybe he should get another shot. I've neither bragged about or dumped on our prospect pool. Until they make it in the NHL they're just prospects to be judged on what they're doing where they are. Unlike some I don't expect every Benning pick to become NHL regulars. Nor do I share the delussion that every 2nd round pick will be a superstar. Prospects are prospects whether coming for junior or the AHL. Either can be a boon, a bust, or somewhere in between as a decent NHL regular. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rocket Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 18 hours ago, CanadianRugby said: No. Do Baertschi and Vey? Can't brag about our prospect pool then dump on it the next minute. If Kole Lind turns into a Baertschi type player i will be more than satisfied. People keep dumping on baertschi and i have no idea why. He’s one of the Canucks best forwards 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canucksnihilist Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 Jeez... and I know that isn’t even a word.... a lot of hot air here, what did Shakespeare say, much ado about nothing? yes: in retrospect JB messed up not keeping some picks. Obviously you wouldn’t make those trades again. If the players had turned out to be gems this would be mute. For me the narrative and WDs ice time distribution were the real sticking points. And the philosophy of trading picks always was risky... but hey his old team did just that and got Cam Neely back... And we got Naslund in the same kind of deal... so you can’t say it’s not worth the risk. But when it failed move on and admit it, and don’t force the coach to have favourite management players who he has to play to make the boss look good... that really pissed me off and clouded my judgement on other things for a while... what is it? Leipsic on a pig? All pigs are equal... but some pigs are more equal than others! It makes me think that mgmt would be the kind of people as employees that if they screw up they wouldn’t admit to it - which I don’t respect. Or maybe it’s ownership and they are not in a winning environment and can’t be honest? Maybe Aquilini is an asshole... maybe that is all it signifies... or the mgmt are people of low character... one or both of those, but something somewhere is wrong in the state of Denmark. but hey, regardless of my lack of respect for their modus operandi and fake narratives (no... I don’t support trump at all), it is impossible to deny they have done a great job bringing a prospect pool together. If they can just constrain themselves In FA... or fend off ownership, whatever it is.... next year could be really fun! And arent we due for a lottery win? Everyone start going to meditation classes and clear all negative thoughts from your heads and on the 28th leave your bodies to the astral plane and adjust the rigged lottery system with spiritual ... no &^@# that. Start worshipping Satan, and with any luck - which is backwards luck cause it’s the Canucks - we will sell our souls En mass for a guaranteed lottery win! Bah. No that won’t work. How about a fundraiser to help bribe betman and his crownies? Don’t know if we have time to raise that much moola.... death to the canucks! Long live the Canucks! Hot air ensueth.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForsbergTheGreat Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 10 hours ago, Baggins said: That's actually the point. Scouting doesn't end at junior hockey and there isn't a GM, or scout, in league that gets every one right. Trading a pick for a good AHL prospect is no different than using the pick. Neither comes with a guarantee and either can be a success or failure. It's actually quite different. Players at 18 come with a ton of flaws that you project can be taught out. You have a minimum of three ELC years to work with them within your system, to put your stamp on their development. These players come as a raw, incomplete package, a blank canvas so to speak 22 year AHL prospects old players who are no longer waiver eligible force you to have them either make it or break it with us at the NHL level. You're hoping that another teams development of the player turns into your rewards. They also come as an incomplete pack but the canvas is already marked up. That's why trades like Dahlen and Goldy have more value to us than trades like Larsen and Vey. We get to work with them, and Goldy is so much better because of it. Had goldy been a year old when we acquired him he likely would have either been moved or claimed by now. People also need to remember that JB isn't the only scout on our team. We have pro scouts and amateur scouts and they act as completely different departments. Ever move JB makes will be influenced by those people. I think we get to focussed on thinking it's all JB, we love to give him all the credit or all the blame for decisions when really most of the credit should be going to the people doing the work. (for example Brian Burke didn't even want to take the twins he was originally planning on trading away his pick earlier that year, it was Gradin that convinced him to draft the twins). With that said our Amateur scouting staff has been far, far more successful than our pro scouting staff. 10 hours ago, Baggins said: Btw, Vey finished 5th in points per game among forwards in the KHL this year. I suppose that makes him one of the KHL superstars. Maybe he should get another shot. Nigel Dawes finished 3rd, being a KHL superstar means about as much as being a AHL superstar..very little. 10 hours ago, Baggins said: I've neither bragged about or dumped on our prospect pool. Until they make it in the NHL they're just prospects to be judged on what they're doing where they are. Unlike some I don't expect every Benning pick to become NHL regulars. Nor do I share the delussion that every 2nd round pick will be a superstar. Prospects are prospects whether coming for junior or the AHL. Either can be a boon, a bust, or somewhere in between as a decent NHL regular. I think JB's drafting record shows that he is able to find far more value out of draft picks than the typical GM. People just wish he had more opportunities at bat. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baggins Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 1 hour ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: It's actually quite different. Players at 18 come with a ton of flaws that you project can be taught out. You have a minimum of three ELC years to work with them within your system, to put your stamp on their development. These players come as a raw, incomplete package, a blank canvas so to speak I disagree. Junior players your judging what they do against other boys. AHL you're judging what they are doing against men. A successful AHL player has better odds of making an NHL career based on that. There's a reason scouting doesn't end at junior. Now if you want to swing for the fence you use that 2nd or 3rd round pick. But you do it knowing full well it's highly unlikely to hit that homerun and the odds are against even getting a decent NHL regular. But the guys that aren't homeruns that actually make NHL careers are years away from ever stepping on that NHL ice. Those are the guys you train junior out of and make them NHL players. But it requires patience. So ultimately it depend on what position your team is in at the time. In our case we had a team of aging declining players with no real prospect pool of even decent NHL ready prospects. So trading some picks for developed guy with AHL success made sense. Get some youth into the lineup to develop into NHL players. But, as I said, they don't come with any guarantees either. Using the picks or trading them for successful AHL players is a gamble either way. 1 hour ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: Nigel Dawes finished 3rd, being a KHL superstar means about as much as being a AHL superstar..very little. I've actaully said before that I see the KHL on about a par with the AHL. I believe the SEL is the superior league. Still, I can see Vey getting another NHL shot. 1 hour ago, ForsbergTheGreat said: I think JB's drafting record shows that he is able to find far more value out of draft picks than the typical GM. People just wish he had more opportunities at bat. Based on what Tryamkin and Forsling? Those are the only two players thus far that Benning has drafted outside the first round to establish themselves. And neither could be called a star at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob_Zepp Posted April 14, 2018 Share Posted April 14, 2018 On 4/13/2018 at 2:42 AM, CanadianRugby said: When you lose an argument but don't want to admit it. Post a gif or meme. Yes, the argument that fictitious players are better than Baer or any other Canuck added as part of the restock. The other argument that .... wait, you have no other argument. Don't you get tired chasing your tail? 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aGENT Posted April 15, 2018 Share Posted April 15, 2018 29 minutes ago, Rob_Zepp said: Yes, the argument that fictitious players are better than Baer or any other Canuck added as part of the restock. The other argument that .... wait, you have no other argument. Don't you get tired chasing your tail? God Rob, don't you know the whole point of rebuilding is to get draft picks!? Who the hell wants players? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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