Kinder Morgan Pipeline Talk

[sonoman]

I don’t profess to be an expert on oil spills, but my understanding is Bitumen can’t be cleaned up very well as it sinks in water.  Why are we not shipping more refined products that can effectively be cleaned in cases of spills?  Again, not a chemical engineer 

 

[luckylager]

18 minutes ago, aliboy said:

Exxon paid billions for the Alaska spill, BP paid over 60 billion for the Gulf of Mexico disaster, Kinder Morgan was on the hook but once the Feds bought the pipeline they are on the hook, for the pipeline and the terminal. BC and The Feds would respond to a tanker spill and then go after whomever for the costs according to the Canada Shipping Act and the Marine Liability Act. More info here.

 

https://www.transmountain.com/spill-liability

 

Good info there. I'm not convinced an effective response plan and the necessary equipment will ever be in place though. The whole limit of liability leaves me uneasy.

 

What people need to start understanding is how connected we are to the ocean, well the coastal residents of BC at least. We have every right to get our back up and fight to the death when we feel our livelihoods, health and wellbeing are threatened by a greedy, destructive and irresponsible industry.

 

Canada could choose to make a more responsible and future friendly investment into clean energy. I can see how that would benefit me and my children, future generations, but I fail to see how this project will be beneficial in the same way.

 

The money generated will not trickle down to your average Canadian citizen, it will only contribute to more reckless government spending and larger tax breaks for corporations. 

 

 

[Ryan Strome]

2 hours ago, kingofsurrey said:

I always thought those Quebecers were a smart group...... now i see it in the stats....

Go figure.... Meanwhile Quebec receives the most through equalization payments.

[Ryan Strome]

2 hours ago, riffraff said:

Ottawa has no beach.

As a matter of fact they do Pacific, Atlantic and Arctic. 

[Ryan Strome]

1 hour ago, luckylager said:

Good info there. I'm not convinced an effective response plan and the necessary equipment will ever be in place though. The whole limit of liability leaves me uneasy.

 

What people need to start understanding is how connected we are to the ocean, well the coastal residents of BC at least. We have every right to get our back up and fight to the death when we feel our livelihoods, health and wellbeing are threatened by a greedy, destructive and irresponsible industry.

 

Canada could choose to make a more responsible and future friendly investment into clean energy. I can see how that would benefit me and my children, future generations, but I fail to see how this project will be beneficial in the same way.

 

The money generated will not trickle down to your average Canadian citizen, it will only contribute to more reckless government spending and larger tax breaks for corporations. 

 

 

So I guess the swearing can be toned down now that you actually know the facts?

[Warhippy]

2 hours ago, canuckistani said:

1. Its the best damn location there is. I'd much rather we contain any potential spill in the burrard inlet- an area of already high traffic with messy water from micro-leakages all the time, than break ground in pristine territory. 

2. I don't see why KM has to shoulder responsibility for spill if its a tanker spill. KM doesn't own the tanker, the tanker company does. They should be on the hook for it. In what world do i, a commodity shipper, become responsible for the commodity after it's exited my logistics chain ?!?

3. Risk from tanker traffic is a BS red-herring alarmism, completely lacking any scientific basis. 

 

Ummm....what?

 

Increase traffic in ANY capacity in any form on any mode of road/highway or transit route and you increase the risk of an accident.  That's literally inarguable.  Lacking scientific basis?  Hardly, it's simple math

 

[Warhippy]

Aside from contingencies, insurance, actual spill/risk mitigation.  I don't see why people are still arguing this.  it's going to get done.  That's an inevitability.  If people are going to protest anything, protest why there are no preventative measures in place for AFTER the oil gets to the end of the line.

[luckylager]

2 hours ago, Ryan Strome said:

So I guess the swearing can be toned down now that you actually know the facts?

You mean the part were BC is paying 1/13 of the associated costs? 

Guess I missed that part.

 

Cough cough

 

 

Edited January 19, 2019 by luckylager

[Mackcanuck]

12 hours ago, Warhippy said:

Aside from contingencies, insurance, actual spill/risk mitigation.  I don't see why people are still arguing this.  it's going to get done.  That's an inevitability.  If people are going to protest anything, protest why there are no preventative measures in place for AFTER the oil gets to the end of the line.

It's going to get done??? Not so sure

They said the same thing about the proposed dilbit pipelines called Energy East, Northern Gateway and Keystone.

Edited January 19, 2019 by Mackcanuck

[Darkstar]

11 hours ago, luckylager said:

Good info there. I'm not convinced an effective response plan and the necessary equipment will ever be in place though. The whole limit of liability leaves me uneasy.

 

What people need to start understanding is how connected we are to the ocean, well the coastal residents of BC at least. We have every right to get our back up and fight to the death when we feel our livelihoods, health and wellbeing are threatened by a greedy, destructive and irresponsible industry.

 

Canada could choose to make a more responsible and future friendly investment into clean energy. I can see how that would benefit me and my children, future generations, but I fail to see how this project will be beneficial in the same way.

 

The money generated will not trickle down to your average Canadian citizen, it will only contribute to more reckless government spending and larger tax breaks for corporations. 

 

 

3

This. I expect the pipeline to go through eventually, a major spill to happen, and then all these pro-pipeline supporters to start whining about how their environment was ruined by a corporation. 

 

Regardless, with all the issues going on with the environment, I don't expect our grandchildren to even be alive to see the environmental damage that we have caused with reckless nonsense such as a pipeline, just for a short-term benefit to the economy. Pipeline, or no pipeline, we're all screwed.

[Ryan Strome]

1 hour ago, Darkstar said:

This. I expect the pipeline to go through eventually, a major spill to happen, and then all these pro-pipeline supporters to start whining about how their environment was ruined by a corporation. 

 

Regardless, with all the issues going on with the environment, I don't expect our grandchildren to even be alive to see the environmental damage that we have caused with reckless nonsense such as a pipeline, just for a short-term benefit to the economy. Pipeline, or no pipeline, we're all screwed.

At least know what you're talking about.

[JM_]

13 hours ago, Ryan Strome said:

Go figure.... Meanwhile Quebec receives the most through equalization payments.

meh, equalization isn't a gun AB gets to hold to the head of other provinces. You need to get over that one. 

[Mackcanuck]

An answer/solution to both sides?

 

Maybe, just maybe instead of our government investing $5B in 1950,s technology buy buying a pipeline they should be investing $$$ into this

 

Indigenous energy company touts job creation in joint venture to make bitumen pucks

CN Rail has been working for years on its “CanaPux” technology that mixes and coats heavy, sticky bitumen oil with recycled polymer plastic, creating a product the size and shape of a bar of soap that can be shipped in rail cars or shipping containers and will float if spilled into water.

It revealed last month a joint venture plan to build a pilot plant for about $50 million to process 10,000 barrels per day of bitumen, with a commercial facility with capacity of 50,000 barrels per day to follow.

 

https://globalnews.ca/news/4860615/bitumen-pucks-indigenous-energy-firm/

 

Now there’s a way to get Alberta oil to market without pipelines — and recycle plastic at the same time

 

The pucks, Auld said, can be loaded onto railway hopper cars, which normally carry products like grain or coal, rather than tank cars, which carry products such as oil or chlorine. As a result, one railway car could move 650 barrels of oil in puck form, compared with a tanker car that can carry 500 barrels of oil.

Costs would also drop. Current demand for tanker cars has driven the price to lease the units up to $3,500 per month, compared with $350 per month for a hopper car.

 

 

Turning bitumen into pucks would also eliminate the need for producers to spend money on diluent, a blending agent that is necessary to lighten the viscosity of bitumen to the point where it can flow through a pipeline.

“It improves the netback to the producer by approximately $15 per barrel,” said Alfred Fischer, a senior advisor with Sproule Associates, who is working on the project

 

https://business.financialpost.com/commodities/cn-rail-first-nations-company-partner-to-build-bitumen-pucks-plant

 

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/cn-rail-canapux-1.4982153

 

 

Edited January 19, 2019 by Mackcanuck

[Ryan Strome]

38 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

meh, equalization isn't a gun AB gets to hold to the head of other provinces. You need to get over that one. 

I don't need to get over anything. Quebec is the only province where a majority of people oppose this project meanwhile Quebec can't make it on their own.

Edited January 19, 2019 by Ryan Strome

[Ryan Strome]

21 minutes ago, Mackcanuck said:

An answer/solution to both sides?

 

Indigenous energy company touts job creation in joint venture to make bitumen pucks

CN Rail has been working for years on its “CanaPux” technology that mixes and coats heavy, sticky bitumen oil with recycled polymer plastic, creating a product the size and shape of a bar of soap that can be shipped in rail cars or shipping containers and will float if spilled into water.

It revealed last month a joint venture plan to build a pilot plant for about $50 million to process 10,000 barrels per day of bitumen, with a commercial facility with capacity of 50,000 barrels per day to follow.

 

https://globalnews.ca/news/4860615/bitumen-pucks-indigenous-energy-firm/

 

Now there’s a way to get Alberta oil to market without pipelines — and recycle plastic at the same time

 

 a solid brick-like creation of CN that is easier to move on railway cars than oil and can be exported from the West Coast using existing coal ports.

 

 

The pucks, Auld said, can be loaded onto railway hopper cars, which normally carry products like grain or coal, rather than tank cars, which carry products such as oil or chlorine. As a result, one railway car could move 650 barrels of oil in puck form, compared with a tanker car that can carry 500 barrels of oil.

Costs would also drop. Current demand for tanker cars has driven the price to lease the units up to $3,500 per month, compared with $350 per month for a hopper car.

 

 

Turning bitumen into pucks would also eliminate the need for producers to spend money on diluent, a blending agent that is necessary to lighten the viscosity of bitumen to the point where it can flow through a pipeline.

“It improves the netback to the producer by approximately $15 per barrel,” said Alfred Fischer, a senior advisor with Sproule Associates, who is working on the project

 

https://business.financialpost.com/commodities/cn-rail-first-nations-company-partner-to-build-bitumen-pucks-plant

 

 

So more rail is the solution? Lol

[Warhippy]

4 hours ago, Mackcanuck said:

It's going to get done??? Not so sure

They said the same thing about the proposed dilbit pipelines called Energy East, Northern Gateway and Keystone.

The ground is already broke in numerous areas, First Nations groups are not just on board now but most are now banding together to see about raising capital needed to purchase the actual pipeline as well.  This pipeline will get completed because it IS in fact the safest pipeline as it is already in existence and is just being expanded on and upgraded.  Once the oil hits the ships that is another story though.

 

It at this point in time is ensuring everyone is happy is all and that's the hardest actual part of the project.

 

Also, as you pointed out.  The bitumen puck facility will also be operational in the near future and there are a great deal of companies on board with trying to find the most cost efficient way of transporting bitumen in this manner

 

It's all a mater of time really

[Mackcanuck]

18 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

So more rail is the solution? Lol

You Lol at the idea, how is this not surprising.

 

Solution to oil spill clean up in the Salish sea as they float in water and can be also be carried in containers on ships and transported by rail on flatbed railcars  or flatbed trucks in containers and in open hopper rail cars rather than tank cars which are smaller and much more expensive.

It will Recycle the plastics out of our land fills, this is what our Federal Gov't should be investing in for Alberta not handouts of $Billions to support destitute oil companies and buying pipelines!

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/cn-rail-canapux-1.4982153

Edited January 19, 2019 by Mackcanuck

[JM_]

18 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

I don't need to get over anything. Quebec is the only province where a majority of people oppose this project meanwhile Quebec can't make it on their own.

AB will never receive equalization payments unless oil completely tanks. Without equalization, there's no reason for other provinces to play along with what AB wants. 

 

And thats just not true, in terms of AB carrying all the load. 

[kingofsurrey]

18 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

So more rail is the solution? Lol

Yes, absolutely.   Bitumen is virtually unrecoverable when spilled in turbulent tidal  ocean conditions....

[JM_]

23 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

So more rail is the solution? Lol

safer transport is. If you can get over the idea that its pipelines or nothing, this is a potentially great solution, particularly for moving oil through Quebec which is a major irritant for you guys.