Prisoners to be placed in men's or women's facility based on how they self identify

[Mr.DirtyDangles]

4 hours ago, kingofsurrey said:

I really thinking of just spoiling my ballot for now on in Provincial and Federal elections.

 

I think it is important to vote...  I just can't support any of the losers that seem to run in CDN politics  at this time. 

 

I may just write  - NONE of the ABOVE on  Ballot.  

AS long as it is with a SH@#! pen !

[Alflives]

So a guy could pretend to identify as a girl, and go to a prison with girls?  And what women, even if she identifies as a man, would go into a men’s prison?  No way in hell any woman voluntarily goes into a men’s prison.  That’s friggin insane.  This has got to be one of the stupidest ideas I’ve heard.  Only allow a man into a girls’ prison If he gets a sex change.  

[JM_]

2 hours ago, Kushman said:

On what basis can you say that the man that claims he is 9 years old is either lying or he is insane? How can you PROVE that he is not in fact 9 years old? What about an adult who has their brain development stunted and only functions at a 9 year old level, are they not telling the truth if they believe they are 9 years old? (note that I don't actually think the person claiming to be 9 years old is in fact 9... I'm just pointing out the similarity between someone claiming to be 9 years old and a biological man claiming to be a woman... neither can be proven in any measurable way. Both rely simply on what the person in question feels like. So why is the person that by all scientific measures is clearly NOT 9 years old insane, yet the person that by all scientific measures is clearly a man, can claim to be a woman and you don't question it one bit?)  I'm not seeing the difference in logic applied to either case. Both go counter to biological evidence and are solely based on belief.

 

on what basis? his birth certificate showing he's 35? what else?

 

you are equating being transgender with a disease or insanity, thats what they used to do with gay people too. 

[Master 112]

14 minutes ago, Two one one said:

But, just for fun, could you tell me what was wrong with it? I'm always trying to refine my argumentation.

The biggest difference I see is that one is a prejudicial statement regarding the correct treatment of a minority population that was socially acceptable to hold 70 years ago, whereas the other is the same thing, only acceptable to hold today.

[JM_]

3 hours ago, SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME said:

 

So that video strikes me as completely fake (at least when it comes to her claim she successfully changed her gender).

 

 

it is fake, actual fake news in fact. As you point out the actual process to get your birth certificate changed is nothing like what she did in the video. Its complete fake news but the alt-righties eat it up with a spoon. 

 

These guys should be thanking us, we showed them actual proof that they were lied to by a Rebel reporter. I assume they want truth. 

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Jimmy McGill said:

on what basis? his birth certificate showing he's 35? what else?

 

you are equating being transgender with a disease or insanity, thats what they used to do with gay people too. 

Maybe we are making this whole idea of men in a girls’ prison too complicated?  Would any sane woman choose to be in a male prison?  Of course not.  Why would a man want to be in a girls’ prison?  

[JM_]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

Maybe we are making this whole idea of men in a girls’ prison too complicated?  Would any sane woman choose to be in a male prison?  Of course not.  Why would a man want to be in a girls’ prison?  

checking out some articles on this today to refute the alt-righties (one of my favourite things to do) I learned that the actual process isn't as simple as that idiot Rebel reporter makes it sound. You need to get an actual doctor to sign off on it after a lengthy evaluation. If you're not in transition I don't think you'd be allowed into a different prison. 

[Alflives]

3 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

checking out some articles on this today to refute the alt-righties (one of my favourite things to do) I learned that the actual process isn't as simple as that idiot Rebel reporter makes it sound. You need to get an actual doctor to sign off on it after a lengthy evaluation. If you're not in transition I don't think you'd be allowed into a different prison. 

Plus, no sane woman will ever want to be in a guy’s prison.  Men should have to be turned into a girl before being in a female prison.  Is this a right-left thing, or just a common sense thing?  Men and women are DIFFERENT, and thank goodness we are.  

[DonaldBrashear]

3 hours ago, Ryan Strome said:

Isn't that against the law? I thought it was for a long time now? 

Sadly, no, it isn't. Here is what the law says:

 

For all purposes of this Act, the prohibited grounds of discrimination are race, national or ethnic origin, colour, religion, age, sex, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, marital status, family status, genetic characteristics, disability and conviction for an offence for which a pardon has been granted or in respect of which a record suspension has been ordered.

 

Things like being too ugly, too fat, too short, having long hair, tattoos, etc. do not fall into any of these categories. "Genetic Characteristics" only means discrimination against people who have tested positive for things that could be deemed negative, specifically DNA tests, e.g., if you found out you had the genes for Parkinsons or whatever.

[JM_]

22 minutes ago, Alflives said:

Plus, no sane woman will ever want to be in a guy’s prison.  Men should have to be turned into a girl before being in a female prison.  Is this a right-left thing, or just a common sense thing?  Men and women are DIFFERENT, and thank goodness we are.  

its a rare thing. 

 

I guess I don't believe that anyone would go through what these people go through if it wasn't who they are.  I hate it when these news stories don't have details on the actual processes involved, it always seems to go downhill in these conversations if that kind of info isn't there. 

 

When you look at the fake video from the Rebel a few pages above, there's people on here that believed it. Thats pretty bad, and thats the kind of fake news thats destroying the US imo. We do not need that up here.  

 

[Kushman]

2 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

on what basis? his birth certificate showing he's 35? what else?

 

you are equating being transgender with a disease or insanity, thats what they used to do with gay people too. 

So a birth certificate is your basis for proving that the guy is 35... Wouldn't a DNA test prove that the transwoman is in fact a man? There would be nothing in the results of that test that would indicate that the person is actually a woman. In fact, the DNA test would be more conclusive than a birth certificate in that the birth certificate can be forged, you can't forge DNA. 

 

I think this is where you and 211 differ from me in the way we view the issues relating to transgenders. I do believe that an individual that identifies with a gender different from their biological one suffers from a mental disorder, specifically gender dysphoria. The negative connotation  associated with "mental disorder" is unfortunate as it seems to halt the conversation and creates a very defensive environment that hasn't led to progress as it relates to actually helping trans people (reaffirming delusions of a person that suffers from a mentally illness is not helping). The suicide rate of trans people is the highest ever recorded by any identity group in human history (something close to 40-50+ %). The only time in history where any other identity group had anything close to that kind of suicide rate were the Jews during WW2. Now I think you will be hard pressed to find anyone that would make the argument that that society treats transgender people with anything even close to the same maliciousness that the Jews faced under Nazi occupied Europe. Furthermore, the suicide rate remains the same in regards to trans people when it comes to post sex reassignment surgery. This indicates to me that this is more of a mental disorder issue, than one of social acceptance or of biological transformation.

 

I've tried to best explain to you why I view the transgender issue the way I do, I'm interested in hearing your rebuttal as to why you DON'T believe it is a mental disorder, and what your explanations as to why the suicide group of this particular group is so high, regardless if pre or post op 

[JM_]

1 minute ago, Kushman said:

So a birth certificate is your basis for proving that the guy is 35... Wouldn't a DNA test prove that the transwoman is in fact a man? There would be nothing in the results of that test that would indicate that the person is actually a woman. In fact, the DNA test would be more conclusive than a birth certificate in that the birth certificate can be forged, you can't forge DNA. 

 

I think this is where you and 211 differ from me in the way we view the issues relating to transgenders. I do believe that an individual that identifies with a gender different from their biological one suffers from a mental disorder, specifically gender dysphoria. The negative connotation  associated with "mental disorder" is unfortunate as it seems to halt the conversation and creates a very defensive environment that hasn't led to progress as it relates to actually helping trans people (reaffirming delusions of a person that suffers from a mentally illness is not helping). The suicide rate of trans people is the highest ever recorded by any identity group in human history (something close to 40-50+ %). The only time in history where any other identity group had anything close to that kind of suicide rate were the Jews during WW2. Now I think you will be hard pressed to find anyone that would make the argument that that society treats transgender people with anything even close to the same maliciousness that the Jews faced under Nazi occupied Europe. Furthermore, the suicide rate remains the same in regards to trans people when it comes to post sex reassignment surgery. This indicates to me that this is more of a mental disorder issue, than one of social acceptance or of biological transformation.

 

I've tried to best explain to you why I view the transgender issue the way I do, I'm interested in hearing your rebuttal as to why you DON'T believe it is a mental disorder, and what your explanations as to why the suicide group of this particular group is so high, regardless if pre or post op 

The American Psychological Association says it isn't. Is that good enough? Begin here: http://www.apa.org/helpcenter/sexual-orientation.aspx

 

Since when is society accepting of trans people except very recently? Reading your take on it wouldn't give them much reassurance now would it? 

 

[Alflives]

8 minutes ago, chilliwiggins said:

It should be Alfie but its not.   There is an apparent need for washrooms equal to the boys and girls basically to cover there a#%.

Its the sign of the times and no one wants to be labeled as someone who resists this.

My problem with this whole idea is at what level of schools they have introduced this for a number of reasons.

1.   Childrens levels of understanding isn't all developed at the exact same age, everyone matures differently.  So the age group they have chosen in my mind is to young.

2.  Not all children have equal social skills or lives,or mental capacity,  some fall prey to others for countless reasons not just bullying, as wel lthe term bullying is so much broader than the word encompasses.  

3.  Children can easily fall into situations of feeling outcast or lesser than. what I'm trying to say is non gender issued kids may gravitate towards this

neutral bathroom as they would be easily accepted as opposed to being bullyed possibly in other washrooms for reasons other than this subject.

4.  There already is cases of this becoming a targeted area for predatory behavior, and that doesn't mean that's just adults either.

A lawyer that I know discussed this over lunch one day , and its already showing flaws at the legal level. meaning there is already many cases in the courts.

Again I have children , one of which is special needs and this is why I am concerned and why I found out some things.

 

 

I think we complicate things too much.  Three bathrooms, where one is private (the handicapped/parent one now) is to be used by all who are uncomfortable in either the boys’ or girls’ one.  I still say it’s simple, and already taken care of.  We are not all created equal, and that’s a good thing.  

[Master 112]

50 minutes ago, Kushman said:

So a birth certificate is your basis for proving that the guy is 35... Wouldn't a DNA test prove that the transwoman is in fact a man? There would be nothing in the results of that test that would indicate that the person is actually a woman. In fact, the DNA test would be more conclusive than a birth certificate in that the birth certificate can be forged, you can't forge DNA. 

 

I think this is where you and 211 differ from me in the way we view the issues relating to transgenders. I do believe that an individual that identifies with a gender different from their biological one suffers from a mental disorder, specifically gender dysphoria. The negative connotation  associated with "mental disorder" is unfortunate as it seems to halt the conversation and creates a very defensive environment that hasn't led to progress as it relates to actually helping trans people (reaffirming delusions of a person that suffers from a mentally illness is not helping). The suicide rate of trans people is the highest ever recorded by any identity group in human history (something close to 40-50+ %). The only time in history where any other identity group had anything close to that kind of suicide rate were the Jews during WW2. Now I think you will be hard pressed to find anyone that would make the argument that that society treats transgender people with anything even close to the same maliciousness that the Jews faced under Nazi occupied Europe. Furthermore, the suicide rate remains the same in regards to trans people when it comes to post sex reassignment surgery. This indicates to me that this is more of a mental disorder issue, than one of social acceptance or of biological transformation.

 

I've tried to best explain to you why I view the transgender issue the way I do, I'm interested in hearing your rebuttal as to why you DON'T believe it is a mental disorder, and what your explanations as to why the suicide group of this particular group is so high, regardless if pre or post op 

There are plenty of medical professionals who disagree with the pathologization of gender dysphoria and think it should be removed from the DSM or who otherwise think its designation as a disorder is arbitrary. (I have spoken with a doctor who has this view.) Most people seem to view medicine as a black-and-white objective discipline unaffected by personal politics, but imo it can be very grey in areas. I believe transgenderism is a social and personal phenomenon before it's a medical one; why do you believe it's a medical phenomenon first and foremost?

 

The best basis I can think of upon which to call gender dysphoria a mental disorder is that it is a significant aberration and causes distress to the person who experiences it. If we stop talking about transgenderism as a mental disorder and instead used this definition, what would we be saying? Even if something can be described medically, why should that change how we treat people who have it? What does the way we choose to categorize transgenderism change about the nature of transgenderism itself? (Nothing, I should hope.) What does it change about how we think of transgenderism?

 

I think you would have a difficult time finding a practitioner whose opinion is that its classification as a mental disorder devalues or invalidates the identity of transgender individuals. Nothing about gender dysphoria would be considered delusional by psychiatric definition.

 

I'm not sure what suicide statistics have to do with anything?

[Alflives]

4 minutes ago, Two one one said:

There are plenty of medical professionals who disagree with the pathologization of gender dysphoria and think it should be removed from the DSM, or who otherwise think its designation as a disorder is largely arbitrary. (I have spoken with a doctor who has the first view.) Most people seem to view medicine as a black-and-white objective discipline unaffected by personal politics, but imo it can be very grey in areas. I believe transgenderism is a social and personal phenomenon before it's a medical one; why do you believe it's a medical phenomenon first and foremost?

 

The best basis I can think of upon which to call gender dysphoria a mental disorder is that it is a significant aberration and causes distress to the person who experiences it. If we stop talking about transgenderism as a mental disorder and instead used this definition, what would we be saying? Even if something can be described medically, why should that change how we treat people who have it any differently? What does the way we choose to categorize transgenderism change about the nature of transgenderism itself? (Nothing, I should hope.) What does it change about how we think of transgenderism?

 

I think you would have a difficult time finding a practitioner whose opinion is that its classification as a mental disorder devalues or invalidates the identity of transgender individuals. Nothing about gender dysphoria would be considered delusional by psychiatric definition.

 

I'm not sure what suicide statistics have to do with anything?

we have guys, girls, and others, right?  Why not just keep things simple and accept there are people who see themselves, for whatever reason, as other.  If they have male strength and characteristics, then it’s the guy prison.  If they are girls, but want to go to a guys’ prison they are INSANE.  

[Master 112]

3 minutes ago, Alflives said:

we have guys, girls, and others, right?  Why not just keep things simple and accept there are people who see themselves, for whatever reason, as other.  If they have male strength and characteristics, then it’s the guy prison.  If they are girls, but want to go to a guys’ prison they are INSANE.  

We've been over this, Alf. That's discriminatory.

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Two one one said:

We've been over this, Alif. It's because that's discriminatory.

Why?  It’s doing what’s right.  No men in a girls’ prison.  No girl is choosing a mens’ prison Unless she’s nuts.  It’s simple.  It’s not discriminatory; it’s doing what’s right.  If a guy sees himself as a girl, and wants the female prison, then he gets a sex change.  It’s whats right.  Personally, in the everyday world, I don’t care.  We are free to move about as we choose.  But the women in prison are held there, so they deserve to have the safest place possible.  That means no men.  

[Master 112]

1 minute ago, Alflives said:

Why?  It’s doing what’s right.  No men in a girls’ prison.  No girl is choosing a mens’ prison Unless she’s nuts.  It’s simple.  It’s not discriminatory; it’s doing what’s right.  If a guy sees himself as a girl, and wants the female prison, then he gets a sex change.  It’s whats right.  Personally, in the everyday world, I don’t care.  We are free to move about as we choose.  But the women in prison are held there, so they deserve to have the safest place possible.  That means no men.  

There won't be any men tho

[Alflives]

1 minute ago, Two one one said:

There won't be any men tho

Then what’s the big deal?  

[Kushman]

29 minutes ago, Two one one said:

There are plenty of medical professionals who disagree with the pathologization of gender dysphoria and think it should be removed from the DSM or who otherwise think its designation as a disorder is arbitrary. (I have spoken with a doctor who has this view.) Most people seem to view medicine as a black-and-white objective discipline unaffected by personal politics, but imo it can be very grey in areas. I believe transgenderism is a social and personal phenomenon before it's a medical one; why do you believe it's a medical phenomenon first and foremost?

 

The best basis I can think of upon which to call gender dysphoria a mental disorder is that it is a significant aberration and causes distress to the person who experiences it. If we stop talking about transgenderism as a mental disorder and instead used this definition, what would we be saying? Even if something can be described medically, why should that change how we treat people who have it? What does the way we choose to categorize transgenderism change about the nature of transgenderism itself? (Nothing, I should hope.) What does it change about how we think of transgenderism?

 

I think you would have a difficult time finding a practitioner whose opinion is that its classification as a mental disorder devalues or invalidates the identity of transgender individuals. Nothing about gender dysphoria would be considered delusional by psychiatric definition.

 

I'm not sure what suicide statistics have to do with anything?

Unlike Jimmy's lazy post, I appreciate that you actually put some thought and use your own thinking to formulate a response. I wasn't going to bother responding until your post and since you bring up some interesting points, I'll try to address them as best I can. 

 

Firstly, I agree with your sentiment that medicine has its grey areas. Politics do play a role, and the findings seem to flip back and forth depending on the issue at hand. From the APA's own page it states that 

Quote

A psychological state is considered a mental disorder only if it causes significant distress or disability. Many transgender people do not experience their gender as distressing or disabling, which implies that identifying as transgender does not constitute a mental disorder.

I find it at odds that the APA would follow up with the second sentence, considering that transgender people have a suicide rate of 40+ %.  I bring up suicide statistics because if you are looking for signs of  "significant distress", I  would think suicide would be the ultimate indicator. Surely nothing can be worse than taking your own life? Wouldn't you agree? 

As for why I believe it is a medical issue over a social one, I think I explained why in my previous post but I'll repeat it in case I wasn't clear enough. When looking at the suicide rate of transgenders, it is abnormally high. Higher than anything seen in human history. The only thing coming close was the Jews during Nazi occupied Europe. When comparing the two groups, I don't think there is evidence that transgenders have been  mistreated anywhere near the levels that the Jews were during WW2, in the past and certainly not in the present that would justify such a high rate of suicide.  That isn't to say that NO transgender person ever committed suicide because of some terrible personal experience suffered at the hands of bullying or discrimination, but rather the group as a whole hasn't suffered anything near the same kind of atrocities that have been found in the past which resulted other groups to have high suicide rates (still nothing in the past that was as alarmingly high as it is for transgenders). 

 

Gender Reassignment surgery also hasn't shown to reduce the suicide rate, and if you look at the research, has actually gone up slightly. 

Quote

Table 5, respondents who said they had received transitionrelated health care or wanted to have it someday were more likely to report having attempted suicide than those who said they did not want it. https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/AFSP-Williams-Suicide-Report-Final.pdf

These are the two primary reasons why I think the issue is one pertaining to mental health. As to why it is important to categorize the issue accurately, the answer is one of compassion and one of remedy. What I mean by that is, the moment you deny that a mental condition exists and act as if there is nothing wrong, is the moment research that could actually help these people stops. There is no need to help people that are considered fully mentally healthy. By denying the existence of a problem, you are denying these people the potential of finding real solutions (allowing and encouraging them to genitally mutilate themselves is not a solution, and as the research above shows.. can worsen the issue). Compassion isn't about being agreeable with someone to spare their feelings. It's about correctly identifying an issue and finding the best solutions to it. 

More acceptance and freedom for surgeries has NOT reduced the suicide problem that exists in the transgender community. Pretending it will get better if we only start using 60+ gender pronouns and pretending biology doesn't exist is not a solution that helps the transgender community solve the more deeper issues that imo are related to their mental health. 

As for you Jimmy, 

Quote

 

Some contend that the diagnosis inappropriately pathologizes gender noncongruence and should be eliminated. Others argue that it is essential to retain the diagnosis to ensure access to care. The International Classification of Diseases(ICD) is under revision and there may be changes to its current classification of intense persistent gender incongruence as "gender identity disorder."

 

There is no consensus as to whether transgender issues are a mental issue or not, there's a lot of research that still needs to be done and there are many differing opinions. I would hope that you would use your own critical thinking a bit more to come up with your own opinion as opposed to just posting a link to the APA and saying "they say its not therefore its not" without actually reading what they say about the topic.