Prisoners to be placed in men's or women's facility based on how they self identify

[SID.IS.SID.ME.IS.ME]

38 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

When did I say there couldn't be abuse? Name me one system where abuse can't happen, in any field. I never claimed to be an expert, this is how I see it, if that bothers you use the ignore option. 

 

Just did a google search - are you talking about this alt-right media person? https://fairplayforwomen.com/canadian-lauren-southern-becomes-man/

 

Are you actually equating a media stunt with the Charter? No wonder conservatives are so confused and angry these days  Who cares if its technically easy to get your gender identity changed? What possible relevance can easy paperwork have in recognizing that people are equal? You'd feel better about it if it was a harder test or something? I'm sorry I looked it up, its alt-right bs. 

 

Oh and btw I just found the reason this was all BS - the requirement to change your drivers licence isn't the same thing as applying to have your birth certificate changed. So big deal, she got her licence changed, but in the eyes of the law she's not a man. This is exactly the kind of alt-right bs that is ruining the US, thank god there aren't more of them up here. Nice try tho. 

 

 

Just watched her video.

 

That’s eight minutes of my life I’ll never get back. 

 

Looks bogus. Her “proof” that the gender change was actually processed is a grainy pic of an Ontario ID document with everything pixelated other than the “M” sex designation and the height.

 

Basically the ID she shows in that video could have been from any guy off the street. No name shown. 

 

And it’s not like she’s exactly publicity shy, so I’m not sure why she wouldn’t have at least shown her name.

 

But at least the guy whose ID she appears to have borrowed was around her height. Would’ve been pretty funny if her “proof” was from a guy who was 6’5”.

 

Also, while I don’t know about Ontario, in BC, that doctor's note would not have been sufficient to change gender. You’d need a much longer form document and it would be reviewed as part of a written application. It would not be left up to some clerk at a desk who has to phone the back office for instructions.

 

Other forms of ID (passport, birth certificate, etc) require an even higher standard of proof and a full assessment by a qualified expert. Usual a doctor or psychologist trained in Gender Dysphoria.

 

I have one family member and another family friend who’ve been through the whole process. So I know a little about what they go through to get their ID changed. It’s not a one and done visit to a clinic and then the government service desk. It’s forms, doctor’s visits, assessment, waiting for processing, and possible review or requests for additional information.

 

Again, talking about BC and Federal here. Don’t know about Ontario specifically, but I’d assume they’re very similar.

 

So that video strikes me as completely fake (at least when it comes to her claim she successfully changed her gender).

 

And IMO, if Ms. Southern somehow actually succeeded in knowingly falsifying her ID documents, she should be prosecuted. 

[Chicken.]

5 minutes ago, Jägermeister said:

Funny, we have the exact same memo at the pool I work at as well.

First time I saw that memo I wondered how long it would take until an issue arose with it.  Nothing (that I've been aware of) yet, but I'm sure something will happen eventually.  I've yet to come across a new policy that hasn't somehow made doing our jobs more difficult in some way 

No instances I am aware of either but he potential is certainly there.

 

I heard we have had some pretty funny instances in regards to the 'Women's Only Swim' at our public facility - as men are banned from the building during this time - but we are not allowed to request proof of gender. quite a puzzling world we live in.

[DonaldBrashear]

What's funny is that the human rights code still doesn't include discrimination when it comes to how someone looks. For instance, you can choose not to hire someone because they have too many tattoos, because they are too fat (fat is not considered a disability itself), or because their hair is too long. GO Canada

[Tystick]

1 hour ago, Chicken. said:

Me and my friends all regret voting for him

Same 

Ughhhhh, what an eye-opener.

[Tystick]

5 minutes ago, DonaldBrashear said:

What's funny is that the human rights code still doesn't include discrimination when it comes to how someone looks. For instance, you can choose not to hire someone because they have too many tattoos, because they are too fat (fat is not considered a disability itself), or because their hair is too long. GO Canada

Oh I'm sure this is on Trudeau's reelection agenda.

Lol.

[ForsbergTheGreat]

32 minutes ago, HerrDrFunk said:

Yeah, prisoners should totally be subjected to rape and abuse because their incarcerated. That will definitely ensure they don't reoffend when they are released. 

 

Christ, almighty.

Are Non trans males not subject to rape in prison.  Or does prison rape ONLY happen to trans?  

 

 

Ill make it simple for you.

 

non trans man. 

“I don’t want to go to prison because I don’t want to get raped”

 

Govt, “too bad”

 

trans man

“I don’t want to go to prison because I don’t want to get raped”

 

govt “crap we better do something”. 

 

 

[Ryan Strome]

1 hour ago, Chicken. said:

Me and my friends all regret voting for him

Chicken I like you but knowing you voted for Trudeau is making me angry.

 

I suppose we all make mistakes and I'm glad you regret that major mistake you made.

[Ryan Strome]

22 minutes ago, DonaldBrashear said:

What's funny is that the human rights code still doesn't include discrimination when it comes to how someone looks. For instance, you can choose not to hire someone because they have too many tattoos, because they are too fat (fat is not considered a disability itself), or because their hair is too long. GO Canada

Isn't that against the law? I thought it was for a long time now? 

[HerrDrFunk]

1 minute ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Are Non trans males not subject to rape in prison.  Or does prison rape ONLY happen to trans?  

 

Prison rape can happen to anyone but just because it can, doesn't mean it should.

 

Of course, you seem to be under the belief that rape is part of the Canadian justice system so.... 

[Kushman]

2 hours ago, Jimmy McGill said:

I can't really explain it to you in all likelihood based on your opening paragraph, but you do really highlight what these folks have to face. 

 

But here goes. In the case of the man claiming he's 9, yes its a binary option. He is either lying or he is insane, adult men who think they are perpetually a 9 year old are by definition insane. He is something that cannot exist in our reality. And legally he is an adult, and had two options, jail, or captive psychological treatment, either way the system can handle his situation under our legal system. In the case of trans people, we did not have the legal framework to handle their situation. See the difference? 

 

You dismiss trans people because you claim it goes against "science" but I doubt you've ever actually looked into that. 

On what basis can you say that the man that claims he is 9 years old is either lying or he is insane? How can you PROVE that he is not in fact 9 years old? What about an adult who has their brain development stunted and only functions at a 9 year old level, are they not telling the truth if they believe they are 9 years old? (note that I don't actually think the person claiming to be 9 years old is in fact 9... I'm just pointing out the similarity between someone claiming to be 9 years old and a biological man claiming to be a woman... neither can be proven in any measurable way. Both rely simply on what the person in question feels like. So why is the person that by all scientific measures is clearly NOT 9 years old insane, yet the person that by all scientific measures is clearly a man, can claim to be a woman and you don't question it one bit?)  I'm not seeing the difference in logic applied to either case. Both go counter to biological evidence and are solely based on belief.

 

1 hour ago, Two one one said:

What does 'science' mean as you use it in this post?

 

There's a difference between gender and biological sex.

There may indeed be a difference between gender and biological sex. I'm not debating that. When it comes to this policy at hand however, it is the biological sex of an individual that is important, not the gender they identify with for reasons that should be pretty obvious...  if you don't get it, just post and ill explain it to you, but it should be pretty self evident why you wouldn't want biological men sharing prison facilities with biological women. You can identify as whatever you like, but don't conflate gender identity with biological sex. You can't change your biological sex, no matter how badly you wish to do so. 

[Master 112]

8 minutes ago, ForsbergTheGreat said:

Are Non trans males not subject to rape in prison.  Or does prison rape ONLY happen to trans?  

 

 

Ill make it simple for you.

 

non trans man. 

“I don’t want to go to prison because I don’t want to get raped”

 

Govt, “too bad”

 

trans man

“I don’t want to go to prison because I don’t want to get raped”

 

govt “crap we better do something”. 

 

 

I don't think that's how it happened.

[Master 112]

1 minute ago, Kushman said:

There may indeed be a difference between gender and biological sex. I'm not debating that. When it comes to this policy at hand however, it is the biological sex of an individual that is important, not the gender they identify with for reasons that should be pretty obvious...  if you don't get it, just post and ill explain it to you, but it should be pretty self evident why you wouldn't want biological men sharing prison facilities with biological women. You can identify as whatever you like, but don't conflate gender identity with biological sex. You can't change your biological sex, no matter how badly you wish to do so. 

It's not self-evident. Please explain,

[Chicken.]

7 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

Chicken I like you but knowing you voted for Trudeau is making me angry.

 

I suppose we all make mistakes and I'm glad you regret that major mistake you made.

The silver lining I've found is that this is probably the only way marijuana would be legalized

[Ryan Strome]

1 minute ago, Chicken. said:

The silver lining I've found is that this is probably the only way marijuana would be legalized

 

[Master 112]

23 minutes ago, Kushman said:

On what basis can you say that the man that claims he is 9 years old is either lying or he is insane? How can you PROVE that he is not in fact 9 years old? What about an adult who has their brain development stunted and only functions at a 9 year old level, are they not telling the truth if they believe they are 9 years old? (note that I don't actually think the person claiming to be 9 years old is in fact 9... I'm just pointing out the similarity between someone claiming to be 9 years old and a biological man claiming to be a woman... neither can be proven in any measurable way. Both rely simply on what the person in question feels like. So why is the person that by all scientific measures is clearly NOT 9 years old insane, yet the person that by all scientific measures is clearly a man, can claim to be a woman and you don't question it one bit?)  I'm not seeing the difference in logic applied to either case. Both go counter to biological evidence and are solely based on belief.

There is a 'scientific' basis for transgenderism. Brain images taken from male-to-female individuals show that the structure of their brains is female in nature while female-to-male brains resemble male brains, and this is before any hormonal treatments have been undergone. If someone has a male body but a female mind, why define them as male? We're our brains, not our skeletons.

 

Although I'm not sure why science needs to be referenced. Lots of things can--and often must--be understood in different terms than empiricism, observation and experimentation. Reducing discussions on the transgender topic to what can be said 'scientifically' is silly and removes most of our vocabulary for talking about it.

[Kushman]

7 minutes ago, Two one one said:

It's not self-evident. Please explain,

Do you agree that there are significant biological differences between Males and Females in terms of strength, size, bone density, etc? Would you agree that in an overwhelming majority of cases, men are physically more capable than women in almost every scenario?  

If your answer to the above is yes, then it follows logically that one of the primary reasons for having separate facilities for men and women is safety. Note that when I say men and women, I am talking about biological men and women, not gender identity. By allowing biological men to now enter women only facilities, it creates an enormous danger and safety risk to the biological women in the prison.

If that still isn't clear to you, think of this example and tell me if makes more sense.,,

 

 if you were a woman fighting in the UFC (biological and in terms of the gender you identify as) and had to step into the octagon to fight against a biological man who by no other measure is a woman, except by the fact that they simply identify as a woman, would you consider that fair? Would you be at all concerned for your safety moreso than if you were having to fight a biological woman? If your answer is no, you are either lying or delusional. 

 

There is a reason why men and women have up until recently always competed in separate divisions. Men are simply phyiscally superior. This isn't sexist, this is fact. The inability to admit this simple biological fact has led to what we see today. Biological men are competing in womens divisions because they self identify as women... and guess what? These biological men are shattering records. It's like the movie juwanna man except its become reality. 

 

 

[Master 112]

2 minutes ago, Kushman said:

Do you agree that there are significant biological differences between Males and Females in terms of strength, size, bone density, etc? Would you agree that in an overwhelming majority of cases, men are physically more capable than women in almost every scenario?  

If your answer to the above is yes, then it follows logically that one of the primary reasons for having separate facilities for men and women is safety. Note that when I say men and women, I am talking about biological men and women, not gender identity. By allowing biological men to now enter women only facilities, it creates an enormous danger and safety risk to the biological women in the prison.

If that still isn't clear to you, think of this example and tell me if makes more sense.,,

 

 if you were a woman fighting in the UFC (biological and in terms of the gender you identify as) and had to step into the octagon to fight against a biological man who by no other measure is a woman, except by the fact that they simply identify as a woman, would you consider that fair? Would you be at all concerned for your safety moreso than if you were having to fight a biological woman? If your answer is no, you are either lying or delusional. 

 

There is a reason why men and women have up until recently always competed in separate divisions. Men are simply phyiscally superior. This isn't sexist, this is fact. The inability to admit this simple biological fact has led to what we see today. Biological men are competing in womens divisions because they self identify as women... and guess what? These biological men are shattering records. It's like the movie juwanna man except its become reality. 

 

 

Yes, men are stronger than women and there are anatomical differences between the male and female sexes.

 

I doubt this decision puts female prisoners in any great danger. Certainly they're in no more danger than transgender prisoners in facilities for inmates of the opposite gender.

[Kushman]

10 minutes ago, Two one one said:

Yes, men are stronger than women and there are anatomical differences between the male and female sexes.

 

I doubt this decision puts female prisoners in any great danger. Certainly they're in no more danger than transgender prisoners in facilities for inmates of the opposite gender.

You're assuming that all transgender criminals are harmless and that trans people can only be victims and never the aggressors. Let me remind you that this is prison we're talking about. 

[Master 112]

2 minutes ago, Kushman said:

You're assuming that all transgender criminals are harmless and that trans people can only be victims and never the aggressors. Let me remind you that this is prison we're talking about. 

Prisoners have the potential for violence, so transgender prisoners should remain in facilities where they are in danger and which are designed for inmates of the oppisite gender?

[Kushman]

2 minutes ago, Two one one said:

Prisoners have the potential for violence, so transgender prisoners should remain in facilities where they are in danger and which are designed for inmates of the oppisite gender?

Transgender prisoners should remain in facilities that match their biological sex. A transgender male to female is still a biological man and has the capability of defending themselves better than a woman prisoner has the capability of defending herself from a biological man. 

 

I don't understand how this is so hard for you to comprehend.