Prisoners to be placed in men's or women's facility based on how they self identify

[Master 112]

4 minutes ago, Kushman said:

Transgender prisoners should remain in facilities that match their biological sex. A transgender male to female is still a biological man and has the capability of defending themselves better than a woman prisoner has the capability of defending herself from a biological man. 

 

I don't understand how this is so hard for you to comprehend. 

I guess where our thinking divides is that I believe people should have their human rights respected regardless of whether they happen to be incarcerated.

[Kushman]

4 minutes ago, Two one one said:

I guess where our thinking divides is that I believe people should have their human rights respected regardless of whether they happen to be incarcerated.

Not gonna just let you slip in that accusation that I don't care about someones humans rights. This isn't about human rights. No one is discriminating against someone identifying as a man or woman or any of the 60+ genders that are claimed to exist. You want to identify as something other than what you were born? Go right ahead, but I'm not going to modify basic biology because it threatens your subjective sense of what you are. Where our thinking divides is you conflate biological sex with gender identity as being one and the same. I on the other hand don't believe you can change your biological sex no matter how hard you want to try and identify as something else, and when it comes to safety as in the case of prisoners, its biological sex that is paramount, not gender identity. 

[HerrDrFunk]

2 minutes ago, Kushman said:

Not gonna just let you slip in that accusation that I don't care about someones humans rights. This isn't about human rights. No one is discriminating against someone identifying as a man or woman or any of the 60+ genders that are claimed to exist. You want to identify as something other than what you were born? Go right ahead, but I'm not going to modify basic biology because it threatens your subjective sense of what you are. Where our thinking divides is you conflate biological sex with gender identity as being one and the same. I on the other hand don't believe you can change your biological sex no matter how hard you want to try and identify as something else, and when it comes to safety as in the case of prisoners, its biological sex that is paramount, not gender identity. 

Just curious, let's say a trans woman (in this case, she was born a man and transitioned to being a woman) has fully completed their transition and for all intents and purposes, is completely indistinguishable outwardly from any other woman. Would you put her in a men's prison if she committed a crime?

[Master 112]

1 minute ago, Kushman said:

Not gonna just let you slip in that accusation that I don't care about someones humans rights. This isn't about human rights. No one is discriminating against someone identifying as a man or woman or any of the 60+ genders that are claimed to exist. You want to identify as something other than what you were born? Go right ahead, but I'm not going to modify basic biology because it threatens your subjective sense of what you are. Where our thinking divides is you conflate biological sex with gender identity as being one and the same. I on the other hand don't believe you can change your biological sex no matter how hard you want to try and identify as something else, and when it comes to safety as in the case of prisoners, its biological sex that is paramount, not gender identity. 

Yes, it is about human rights. In particular it's about the right to not be discriminated against on the basis of one's gender identity/expression. Imprisoning someone in a facility for persons of the opposite gender is, as it so happens, a form of discrimination.

 

Again, you don't have to modify basic biology as there is a scientific basis for transgenderism which I have remarked on above.

 

 

Where have I conflated gender identity with biological sex? I do believe brains are sexed (and can be sexed differently than the body), but this is something the scientific literature supports.

 

If you are concerned with the safety of the prisoners (and I don't believe you genuinely are), what is to be done about protecting transgender prisoners from violence if not incarcerating them in facilities congruous with their gender? Surely they are at greater risk of (sexual) assault than other prisoners.

 

 

[Kragar]

31 minutes ago, Two one one said:

 oppisite gender?

Is there any such thing?  And no, I'm not picking on the typo.

 

"Gender" has been very recently redefined by portions of society.  Not so long ago, gender and biological sex type referred to the same thing.  At that point, there was an opposite, since it was almost exclusively a binary choice.  Somewhere in the last couple decades, some people decided to change the definition.  

 

Now, with claims that there are over 60 genders, the word "opposite" has lost meaning here.  There is no same-gender facility for people who do not "identify" as either male or female.  If there was one (or, over 50 of them, to be more accurate), we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

[Master 112]

3 minutes ago, Kragar said:

Is there any such thing?  And no, I'm not picking on the typo.

 

"Gender" has been very recently redefined by portions of society.  Not so long ago, gender and biological sex type referred to the same thing.  At that point, there was an opposite, since it was almost exclusively a binary choice.  Somewhere in the last couple decades, some people decided to change the definition.  

 

Now, with claims that there are over 60 genders, the word "opposite" has lost meaning here.  There is no same-gender facility for people who do not "identify" as either male or female.  If there was one (or, over 50 of them, to be more accurate), we probably wouldn't be having this discussion.

I've honestly never met a person who has claimed there are dozens of genders.

[Chicken.]

6 minutes ago, Two one one said:

I've honestly never met a person who has claimed there are dozens of genders.

dont some people identify to being 'gender-fluid' or even 'agender'  meaning they have gender overlaps or dont associate with any gender.. Quite mind boggling 

[Kragar]

2 minutes ago, Two one one said:

I've honestly never met a person who has claimed there are dozens of genders.

To be honest, I'm not aware of meeting someone who has either.  But, they're out there.

 

Facebook has over 50 choices.  An Aussie survey allowed for over 30.  A UK LGBTQ site mentions 63.  

 

Dig deeper, and many organizations are open for more than that.  There are no bounds to nature, or the imagination, depending what your outlook is.

 

[Kushman]

3 minutes ago, HerrDrFunk said:

Just curious, let's say a trans woman (in this case, she was born a man and transitioned to being a woman) has fully completed their transition and for all intents and purposes, is completely indistinguishable outwardly from any other woman. Would you put her in a men's prison if she committed a crime?

Manipulation of biological sex through surgery and hormone therapy is a bit different than just self identification of gender. In this scenario I would consider it an option to place the individual in a prison opposite to their biological sex if it was was clear that staying in the men's prison posed a real threat to their safety. I would do this case by case however since it would have to be established that by staying they were in immediate danger, and also that by going to a female prison, they would not be an immediate danger to the female prisoners. In the context of criminals in prison, it is just as dangerous an logically fallacious to assume that no trans person could ever be dangerous to other inmates, as it is to assume that all trans gender inmates are always victims. The number of trans inmates is low enough that I don't think it would put a strain on how many cases would have to be reviewed. 

 

5 minutes ago, Two one one said:

Yes, it is about human rights. In particular it's about the right to not be discriminated against on the basis of one's gender identity/expression. Imprisoning someone in a facility for persons of the opposite gender is, as it so happens, a form of discrimination.

 

Again, you don't have to modify basic biology as there is a scientific basis for transgenderism which I have remarked on above.

 

 

Where have I conflated gender identity with biological sex? I do believe brains are sexed (and can be sexed differently than the body), but this is something the scientific literature supports.

 

If you are concerned with the safety of the prisoners (and I don't believe you genuinely are), what is to be done about protecting transgender prisoners from violence if not incarcerating them in facilities congruous with their gender? Surely they are at greater risk of (sexual) assault than other prisoners.

 

 

There may be differences in the brain patterns of trans people when compared to their biological gender counterparts, but the research is FAR from conclusive and there certainly isn't any scientific consensus in this regard. A study from 2015 concluded the following  

Quote

"For a number of sexually dimorphic brain structures or processes, signs of feminisation or masculinisation are observable in transsexual individuals, which, during hormonal treatment, partly seem to further adjust to characteristics of the desired sex. Still, it appears the data are quite inhomogeneous, mostly not replicated and in many cases available for male-to-female transsexuals only. As the prevalence of homosexuality is markedly higher among transsexuals than among the general population, disentangling correlates of sexual orientation and gender identity is a major problem. To resolve such deficiencies, the implementation of specific research standards is proposed"  https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0149763415002432

 

Meaning that the results were varied and there are other variables that may come into play. The topic still needs to be researched more before we can draw up any conclusions. But lets even grant you the notion that you are right and it turns out that trans people do have brain structures that are more similar to the brains of  the genders that they identify with than with the ones of their biological sex. That doesn't change the advantages trans people can have in regards to physical advantages associated with biological sex. If you look at trans male to female athletes that have undergone all the surgeries and hormone therapy that are available, they still outperform biological female athletes by a LARGE margin. Trans athletes that have been allowed to compete in women's weightlifting, running, fighting, whatever the sport may be, dominate the sport, regardless of the changes they've put their bodies through. So it goes back again to the safety of female prisoners. You keep assuming that a trans person can only be a victim and never the aggressor, whereas I'm saying you have to consider the possibility of both options

[Master 112]

6 minutes ago, Kushman said:

There may be differences in the brain patterns of trans people when compared to their biological gender counterparts, but the research is FAR from conclusive and there certainly isn't any scientific consensus in this regard. A study from 2015 concluded the following  

 

Meaning that the results were varied and there are other variables that may come into play. The topic still needs to be researched more before we can draw up any conclusions. But lets even grant you the notion that you are right and it turns out that trans people do have brain structures that are more similar to the brains of  the genders that they identify with than with the ones of their biological sex. That doesn't change the advantages trans people can have in regards to physical advantages associated with biological sex. If you look at trans male to female athletes that have undergone all the surgeries and hormone therapy that are available, they still outperform biological female athletes by a LARGE margin. Trans athletes that have been allowed to compete in women's weightlifting, running, fighting, whatever the sport may be, dominate the sport, regardless of the changes they've put their bodies through. So it goes back again to the safety of female prisoners. You keep assuming that a trans person can only be a victim and never the aggressor, whereas I'm saying you have to consider the possibility of both options

It has nothing to do with the assumption that people of a given demographic can or cannot be victims or aggressors. It has everything to do with the principle that entire demographics should not be discriminated against because someone from that demographic might have a potential for violence.

[Master 112]

5 minutes ago, chilliwiggins said:

There is a stat out there which I was made aware of about the uptick on voyeurism, sexual touching, and assaults which have taken place in the public government run operations, eg schools, pools, rec centers, in connection to the newly installed gender neutral bathrooms   THE PURPLE BATHROOM

Why do I know??   because I called out the school board on it as I wanted a clear explanation with data backing it up, as I have children , one of which is special needs, and may or may not have a clear understanding of this whole concept.   It does get me in more informative meetings then many parents, as well I have a knack for making many uncomfortable with my clear questions.

Put it this way the principal changes directions if he sees me from a distance.

May I see the data?

[Alflives]

Why not just continue with three bathrooms: boys, girls, and special needs?  The special needs only accommodates one person, and is used by parents with children, handicapped, and all those who are gender whatever, and uncomfortable with a specific communal bathroom?  Shouldn’t it just be that easy?  

[King Heffy]

Why not just throw them in PC where it's not an issue to begin with?

[Master 112]

1 minute ago, King Heffy said:

Why not just throw them in PC where it's not an issue to begin with?

lol

[Master 112]

How many steps away is 'trans women should be sent to male prisons as they would win a fight with a biological woman' from 'black populations should be segregated from white populations as they have a higher proclivity for violent offences'?

[Rounoush]

Every time.

 

Canada: Not a serious country.

[Kushman]

4 minutes ago, Two one one said:

How many steps away is 'trans women should be delegated to male prisons as they would win a fight with a biological woman' from 'black populations should be segregated from white populations as they have a higher proclivity for violent offences'?

 

[Master 112]

Just now, Kushman said:

 

I like memes, too.

[Kushman]

1 minute ago, Two one one said:

I like memes, too.

good, the ridiculousness in your last post doesn't warrant anything more than a meme in response. 

[Master 112]

Just now, Kushman said:

good, the ridiculousness in your last post doesn't warrant anything more than a meme in response. 

But, just for fun, could you tell me what was wrong with it? I'm always trying to refine my argumentation.