Prisoners to be placed in men's or women's facility based on how they self identify

[kingofsurrey]

What if they self identify as being honest hard working legit citizens.... ?

 

Do they immediately get released back to the streets then ?

[Kushman]

1 hour ago, Jimmy McGill said:

the number of actual trans people who will be involved in this will be a tiny proportion of the prison community, thats the 'few'. 

 

Stories like this are much too reactionary and people like to say this is all "Trudeau" like he could just walk in and make all this happen  that idea is quite funny to me

 

But like the story actually said this is the result of years of collaboration between multiple groups involved in prison rehabilitation so I'm going to just go ahead and assume these folks see a real need for this.  (A joint statement from Prisoners' Legal Services, the Correctional Service of Canada and the Canadian Human Rights Commission said the reforms are the result of years of collaboration.) 

 

I also don't see these 3 groups going out of their way to cause harm to the general prison population or look for ways to put women at risk either, I don't know the details but I highly doubt that some creepo rapist dude can suddenly declare he's a women and get transferred to a women's prison at have his way with people. 

 

 

 

If you think this would of passed under a conservative government, you are out of your mind. This has everything to do with Trudeau, and if you actually read the article you'd see  "These changes come after the federal government added "gender identity and expression" to the list of prohibited grounds for discrimination in the Canadian Human Rights Act last June."

 

1 hour ago, DIBdaQUIB said:

To be clear, I am not upset about the inclusion of "trans" people but the potential for abuse and the implications for others.  The devil is usually in the details so we will have to wait and see just how the determination is to be made. 

 

Having had an uncle who was a counsellor in the prison system, I lack your faith that this will be a benign change.   

This is exactly the point... when you create these kind of laws, you have to also keep in mind the potential for abuse that it opens up. Take for example the 38 year old child rapist who self identifies as a 9 year old in order to justify his sexual abuse of three underage girls. https://www.themaven.net/bluelivesmatter/news/child-rapist-claims-he-self-identifies-as-a-9-year-old-in-man-s-body-JvJ_xj_jg0q0ex6zhK9wUA?full=1

This isn't about discriminating against trans, this is about safety and about logic. Can anyone explain the difference between a 38 year old man self identifying as a 9 year old and a 38 year old biological man identifying as a female. Are you ageist if you don't accept someone for identifying as a 9 year old?

 

All those that keep saying "who cares" or "it only affects a small percent". That's how the fall of societies start... bit by bit, it's rarely in one huge swoop. 

This reminds me of Martin Niemoller's poem:

 

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— 
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— 
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

[JM_]

3 minutes ago, Kushman said:

If you think this would of passed under a conservative government, you are out of your mind. This has everything to do with Trudeau, and if you actually read the article you'd see  "These changes come after the federal government added "gender identity and expression" to the list of prohibited grounds for discrimination in the Canadian Human Rights Act last June."

 

This is exactly the point... when you create these kind of laws, you have to also keep in mind the potential for abuse that it opens up. Take for example the 38 year old child rapist who self identifies as a 9 year old in order to justify his sexual abuse of three underage girls. https://www.themaven.net/bluelivesmatter/news/child-rapist-claims-he-self-identifies-as-a-9-year-old-in-man-s-body-JvJ_xj_jg0q0ex6zhK9wUA?full=1

This isn't about discriminating against trans, this is about safety and about logic. Can anyone explain the difference between a 38 year old man self identifying as a 9 year old and a 38 year old biological man identifying as a female. Are you ageist if you don't accept someone for identifying as a 9 year old?

 

All those that keep saying "who cares" or "it only affects a small percent". That's how the fall of societies start... bit by bit, it's rarely in one huge swoop. 

This reminds me of Martin Niemoller's poem:

 

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out— 
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out— 
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

I have no doubt that this would not have happened under Harper, he's on record as wanting to get rid of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Let that sink in.

 

Are you really arguing that we shouldn't recognize new rights on the basis that it creates potential issues we have to work out? 

 

How is recognizing trans rights going to lead to the "fall" of our society? You'll need to draw me a picture to see that logic. 

 

 

[PhillipBlunt]

Just now, Wonder__Bread said:

You're missing the point. You don't create a system that will encourage sexual assault/rape, you should be doing everything to minimize it. It'd be like throwing an antelope into a lions den, a lions den that hasn't eaten in months and is starving. I understand it's just an option but I'm pretty sure a lot of people will be taking advantage of this (I'm guessing more men than women however). 

They'd all be dead by that point. Not trying to split hairs, mind you.

 

That being said. There shouldn't be that much leniency in where a convicted felon goes. Leave that up to the courts.

[Brad Marchand]

The article makes no mention of what the self-identification process is.

 

Ireland's current legislation allows transgender prisoners to self-identify without medical examination, only requiring a two-page application to be filled out. In contrast, the current British legislation requires a 16-page form and medical examination before one can be officially classified as a transgender prisoner.

 

Point is, people probably aren't going to be allowed to just say they are transgender without being evaluated first. Other countries already allow transgender prisoners to be classified by their gender identity of choice with various forms of vetting. Canada would probably have similar measures put in place.

[luckylager]

I really couldn't care less, but for the sake of trolling-

What if I identify with Peter Pan?

 

Juvenile Detention Centre?

 

Hmmmm

[Shift-4]

24 minutes ago, riffraff said:

 

 

#cantkeepasecret

LMFAO

[Sean Monahan]

As if prison rape doesn't happen anyway. Haven't you seen American History X?

[Hobble]

Breaking news 2019: Incarceration of people identifying as trans-gender is on the rise. Is our justice system discriminatory, or do men just not want to get r'ed in the a' while picking up soap? We'll give you the details at 11pm.

[JM_]

45 minutes ago, Kushman said:

. Can anyone explain the difference between a 38 year old man self identifying as a 9 year old and a 38 year old biological man identifying as a female. Are you ageist if you don't accept someone for identifying as a 9 year old?

 

yes, he's either lying or insane. Either way he stays locked up if he's a threat to kids.

 

I'll get into this more with you about why that analogy is wrong, but I'd like you to answer one yes or no question first: Assuming the trans person is telling the truth, do you still have a problem with the new policy? Yes or No please. 

[Kushman]

16 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

yes, he's either lying or insane. Either way he stays locked up if he's a threat to kids.

 

I'll get into this more with you about why that analogy is wrong, but I'd like you to answer one yes or no question first: Assuming the trans person is telling the truth, do you still have a problem with the new policy? Yes or No please. 

 

I can accept that a trans person BELIEVES they are of the opposite sex, but I cannot accept the premise that they are telling the Truth because that would assume the premise that a biological man can actually be a woman (and vice versa) as being true. There's a difference in accepting and not discriminating against trans people, and accepting non scientifically proven delusion as biological fact. This is the issue i take with policies such as this and Bill C-16, they do more than give rights, they validate claims that aren't in any way scientifically proven. 

 

You are so quick to say that the person identifying as a 9 year old is lying or is insane. Yet you have not explained how it is any different from the trans claim. (Note I don't think most trans people are lying or are insane, but rather that they suffer from a mental disorder.. gender dysphoria) 

[VanGnome]

Here's my take on the subject:

1. Self Identification of anything does not happen until a person is a. Self aware, and b. Able to process cognitive thinking at a minimum level in order to process these thoughts, feelings, emotions etc. and c. influenced by external stimuli. In other words, it is psychological, and if something is truly biologically based it will manifest itself naturally in isolation; much like Darwinian Evolution.

2. If a person is sent to prison, they have surrendered their freedoms enjoyed by law abiding citizens; such as being free to choose how they live their lives whether they choose to identify with a particular gender or race etc, it doesn't prevent those people from still self identifying but that self identification should not be grounds for special consideration or treatment at the expense of taxpayer money (ie if a female who self identifies as male is placed in a male prison, there's a good chance that person is going to be on the wrong end of abusive treatment, physical violence etc from the male inmates, which leads to medical care and attention and other measures which all ultimately cost money).

3. A person is biologically born a man, woman or in some cases hermaphroditic, until science can irrefutably prove otherwise (studies are awaiting funding). Birth gender does not dictate a corresponding and matching psychology, but it does define biological imperatives such as how the person's body functions and the susceptibility to certain conditions (such as those which primarily affect women, vs men or those who only affect women such as menopause).

4. Placing someone into a prison which matches their biological/defined at birth gender is not inhumane, it is logical.

I don't want this to be taken out of context, but I wonder if the leading edge of our modern behavior as a society is too quick to lean toward acceptance for acceptance sake before determining the biological origins which explain or debunk certain manifestations of individual expression. Basically what I mean by that is we're running toward a foregone conclusion before proving the validity of that position.

For example, it took years of research before scientists were able to identify consistent markers on genes which lead to the discovery of the dominance of opposite gender hormones in the womb and how those hormones manifest in that individuals unique psychology, thus proving that if someone is gay or lesbian they are truly born that way and it is not a choice. Therefore the expressionism that manifests during adolescence is a natural occurrence.

To me it seems that we as a society are taking the same level of acceptance that we have come to find as a new social norm when it comes to gay and lesbian existence and applying it carte blanche to transgenderism, and all other forms of individual expressionism we are seeing (Rachel Dolezal is a good example), before we give science the opportunity to prove true or false.

Social acceptance is far different than crafting and drafting legislation and official social policy without the basis of scientific fact, and by feeding into itself we are creating a culture of determinism which is leading people to making life altering decisions under a potentially false pretense. It's becoming increasingly common that very same social acceptance is creating a parallel culture where questions to the contrary of that acceptance is looked at as being bigoted or small minded. It's very dangerous to create a reality where questioning things is demonized.

[JM_]

28 minutes ago, Kushman said:

 

I can accept that a trans person BELIEVES they are of the opposite sex, but I cannot accept the premise that they are telling the Truth because that would assume the premise that a biological man can actually be a woman (and vice versa) as being true. There's a difference in accepting and not discriminating against trans people, and accepting non scientifically proven delusion as biological fact. This is the issue i take with policies such as this and Bill C-16, they do more than give rights, they validate claims that aren't in any way scientifically proven. 

 

You are so quick to say that the person identifying as a 9 year old is lying or is insane. Yet you have not explained how it is any different from the trans claim. (Note I don't think most trans people are lying or are insane, but rather that they suffer from a mental disorder.. gender dysphoria) 

I can't really explain it to you in all likelihood based on your opening paragraph, but you do really highlight what these folks have to face. 

 

But here goes. In the case of the man claiming he's 9, yes its a binary option. He is either lying or he is insane, adult men who think they are perpetually a 9 year old are by definition insane. He is something that cannot exist in our reality. And legally he is an adult, and had two options, jail, or captive psychological treatment, either way the system can handle his situation under our legal system. In the case of trans people, we did not have the legal framework to handle their situation. See the difference? 

 

You dismiss trans people because you claim it goes against "science" but I doubt you've ever actually looked into that. 

[Shift-4]

If I were ever going to prison you wouldn't catch me self identifying as a woman.

Women are enough of a challenge outside of prison, wouldn't want to be surrounded by the variety that actually ends up in the big house.   

[Ryan Strome]

2 hours ago, Jimmy McGill said:

curious.... why do you think trans people shouldn't be discriminated against? I guess if you don't believe they are real, but I'm pretty sure they aren't like Santa Claus.

 

3 hours ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

Welp, now I have a game plan if I'm ever thrown in the can.

 

Thanks, Justin 

 

[Master Mind]

1 hour ago, NUCKER67 said:

What I meant is if you commit a crime, then you'll have to go to jail like everyone else. If some people, who disagree with their birth gender, are so uncomfortable with the current system, then stay out of trouble. 

I know, I was just pulling your leg since that saying doesn't make much sense when you break it down

[JM_]

4 minutes ago, Ryan Strome said:

 

 

nice non-answer 

[CanuckGAME]

Who the **** voted for Cuckdeau again?

 

What a joke this guy is.  

[canuckster19]

2 hours ago, Jimmy McGill said:

I don't know the context here or who that is. Did she want to go to a mens prison? 

Honestly if you don't know who Laura Southern is, I doubt you are the self proclaimed expert you claim to be, and like your own stone throwing in a glass house shrug off the answer instead of doing your own research.

 

Honestly I literally don't care what transpeople want to do, what I care about is what Laura Southern proved which is abuse of the system, which you claim can't happen, yet "he" is the perfect example of such a case, or the countless numbers of "men" now dominating women's sports. But hey, you obvisouly don't see any sort of problem with this. I mean we put the mentally and physically handicapped in their own special olympics, time to throw the transies into it too.

 

If you don't understand how the abuse of such a system translates to our penal system, well then, lol.

[Chicken.]

10 minutes ago, CanuckGAME said:

Who the **** voted for Cuckdeau again?

 

What a joke this guy is.  

Me and my friends all regret voting for him