underrated Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 Here's some proposals as food for thought! To Toronto: Alex Edler To Vancouver: 2019 2nd and 4th round picks Not a super original deal here. Toronto needs more good players on defense, as well as playoff experience. They need to keep themselves cap flexible. Edler fits all of this. He's an upgrade on D, has a wealth of experience and an expiring contract. Personally I don't think Edler gets a first round pick, so maybe it's worth re-signing him, but he's definitely getting to that age where defensemen decline so we run the risk of paying too much to re-sign him. Toronto may re-sign him but likely a rental due to cap space. Canucks add two valuable assets for a rebuilding team, especially if we just sent out the second round pick to Ottawa. Maybe if we retain half his salary we could upgrade this to a first round pick. That would be great, but I doubt the Leafs would bite since they have money and won't want to give the first rounder. To Ottawa: Jake Virtanen, Ben Hutton, Sam Gagner, Toronto's 2nd round pick To Vancouver: Bobby Ryan ($2 million retained per season), Thomas Chabot See my other Topic for further thoughts on this. I doubt Ottawa parts with Chabot since he's elite, but Melnyk may be desperate to save the $29 million on Ryan's contract, and if so, we should swoop in and capitalize by trading a non-elite young player like Virtanen, an expiring RFA contract like Hutton, and a much less contract dump of Gagner plus a pick. For the Canucks, they get an elite young piece for their core going forward and rather than giving top young assets, we pay for Chabot by taking on Ryan's horrible contract. Potentially the 2nd round pick and $2 million could be removed from this deal, but I think Ottawa would like the pick and Vancouver will find $5.5 much more manageable, especially if we try to trade him in 2-3 years. To Calgary: Brandon Sutter (when healthy), Derrick Pouliot, 2019 Toronto's 4th round pick To Vancouver: 2019 1st round pick (top 20 protected. If not, 2020 top 15 protected. Then 2021 no protection). Rarely do teams trade in division but the Canucks and Flames are at different points right now and this deal helps them both. Calgary is second in the western conference right now with 22 wins and 11 losses. Sutter would be a great addition, even though they have Derek Ryan (who is only averaging 13 minutes a night) as Sutter brings so much value across the board with offense, defense, faceoffs, experience.. Plus with James Neal often on the third line, he could actually pair up with Sutter to be quite a contributing line if Neal turns it around a bit. Pouliot gives depth on defense, from a young and inexpensive player. He would pair on the third group with Michael Stone. He'd be a better depth defenseman than Rasmus Andersson. The Canucks get a late first round pick as an asset for the draft that we host at home, unless it conveys to a later year. To Vancouver: Karl Alzner, 2nd round pick To Montreal: future considerations Montreal waived him and nobody took the bait. We want an asset, and could use an experienced defenseman with Edler gone. Only real risk is his contract which has a $3.6 cap hit but we could also always put him on waivers if we need in the future. Lineup (assuming everyone is healthy) Goldobin - Petterson - Boeser Baertschi - Horvat - Ryan Granlund - Gaudette - Eriksson Motte - Beagle - Roussel Chabot - Tanev Alzner - Stecher Del Zotto - Gudbransson Biega Overall we take on bad contracts of Ryan and Alzner, but gain a 1st (from Calgary), a 2nd (from Montreal), use Toronto's two draft picks to our advantage in other deals...and most importantly get Thomas Chabot. All this without giving up a first round pick or a top young asset. Losing Virtanen may hurt but isn't earth shattering. Which deals do you think are fair? Which are not? Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-AJ- Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 You actually make pretty good proposals. I could see any of these three going through. If I have to nitpick, I'd start with the Edler deal. I think Edler is worth what you've proposed under normal circumstances, but given his pending UFA status, I think his value is significantly lower. I'd peg him at about a 3rd rounder. The second deal is the most intriguing. As much as it would kill me to give up on Jake, Chabot would certainly be worth it. All that said, I think there's an awful lot of hype for Chabot right now and it might even take a bit more to get him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coastal.view Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 28 minutes ago, underrated said: To Ottawa: Jake Virtanen, Ben Hutton, Sam Gagner, Toronto's 2nd round pick To Vancouver: Bobby Ryan ($2 million retained per season), Thomas Chabot See my other Topic for further thoughts on this. I doubt Ottawa parts with Chabot since he's elite, but Melnyk may be desperate to save the $29 million on Ryan's contract, and if so, we should swoop in and capitalize by trading a non-elite young player like Virtanen, an expiring RFA contract like Hutton, and a much less contract dump of Gagner plus a pick. For the Canucks, they get an elite young piece for their core going forward and rather than giving top young assets, we pay for Chabot by taking on Ryan's horrible contract. Potentially the 2nd round pick and $2 million could be removed from this deal, but I think Ottawa would like the pick and Vancouver will find $5.5 much more manageable, especially if we try to trade him in 2-3 years. so you are basically saying ottawa is giving up chabot for virt and hutton ?? since the other 2 players are dead weight 1. let's look at the money issue if that is what is motivating ottawa: for 5.5 million (ryan with retention you propose) - 3.2 (gagner for this year and next) = 2.3 we get chabot who is on elc - gets paid $835,000 (for this year and next) they take on hutton 2.8 - expiring contract and virtanen 1.25 - for this year an next just based on the contract values being exchanged, ottawa takes on at least an extra 1 million in contract for the 1st year) for 2nd year ottawa takes on likely another 1 million per to resign hutton so this deal has no financial incentive for that team 2. this trade will require ottawa to use up 1 of their remaining 2 contract spaces this season 3. ottawa will need to want to do this trade based solely on the talent exchange in my view virt and hutton for chabot? not bloody likely Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwijibo Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 55 minutes ago, underrated said: Here's some proposals as food for thought! To Toronto: Alex Edler To Vancouver: 2019 2nd and 4th round picks Not a super original deal here. Toronto needs more good players on defense, as well as playoff experience. They need to keep themselves cap flexible. Edler fits all of this. He's an upgrade on D, has a wealth of experience and an expiring contract. Personally I don't think Edler gets a first round pick, so maybe it's worth re-signing him, but he's definitely getting to that age where defensemen decline so we run the risk of paying too much to re-sign him. Toronto may re-sign him but likely a rental due to cap space. Canucks add two valuable assets for a rebuilding team, especially if we just sent out the second round pick to Ottawa. Maybe if we retain half his salary we could upgrade this to a first round pick. That would be great, but I doubt the Leafs would bite since they have money and won't want to give the first rounder. To Ottawa: Jake Virtanen, Ben Hutton, Sam Gagner, Toronto's 2nd round pick To Vancouver: Bobby Ryan ($2 million retained per season), Thomas Chabot See my other Topic for further thoughts on this. I doubt Ottawa parts with Chabot since he's elite, but Melnyk may be desperate to save the $29 million on Ryan's contract, and if so, we should swoop in and capitalize by trading a non-elite young player like Virtanen, an expiring RFA contract like Hutton, and a much less contract dump of Gagner plus a pick. For the Canucks, they get an elite young piece for their core going forward and rather than giving top young assets, we pay for Chabot by taking on Ryan's horrible contract. Potentially the 2nd round pick and $2 million could be removed from this deal, but I think Ottawa would like the pick and Vancouver will find $5.5 much more manageable, especially if we try to trade him in 2-3 years. To Calgary: Brandon Sutter (when healthy), Derrick Pouliot, 2019 Toronto's 4th round pick To Vancouver: 2019 1st round pick (top 20 protected. If not, 2020 top 15 protected. Then 2021 no protection). Rarely do teams trade in division but the Canucks and Flames are at different points right now and this deal helps them both. Calgary is second in the western conference right now with 22 wins and 11 losses. Sutter would be a great addition, even though they have Derek Ryan (who is only averaging 13 minutes a night) as Sutter brings so much value across the board with offense, defense, faceoffs, experience.. Plus with James Neal often on the third line, he could actually pair up with Sutter to be quite a contributing line if Neal turns it around a bit. Pouliot gives depth on defense, from a young and inexpensive player. He would pair on the third group with Michael Stone. He'd be a better depth defenseman than Rasmus Andersson. The Canucks get a late first round pick as an asset for the draft that we host at home, unless it conveys to a later year. To Vancouver: Karl Alzner, 2nd round pick To Montreal: future considerations Montreal waived him and nobody took the bait. We want an asset, and could use an experienced defenseman with Edler gone. Only real risk is his contract which has a $3.6 cap hit but we could also always put him on waivers if we need in the future. Lineup (assuming everyone is healthy) Goldobin - Petterson - Boeser Baertschi - Horvat - Ryan Granlund - Gaudette - Eriksson Motte - Beagle - Roussel Chabot - Tanev Alzner - Stecher Del Zotto - Gudbransson Biega Overall we take on bad contracts of Ryan and Alzner, but gain a 1st (from Calgary), a 2nd (from Montreal), use Toronto's two draft picks to our advantage in other deals...and most importantly get Thomas Chabot. All this without giving up a first round pick or a top young asset. Losing Virtanen may hurt but isn't earth shattering. Which deals do you think are fair? Which are not? Thoughts? The Ottawa trade is laughable. Chabot has effectively stepped in as a ppg D at age 21. He’s worth far more than a bunch of lesser players and picks. If Vancouver wants him or STARTS with Pettersson Also. Alzner’s Cap hit is $4.6m. Not $3.6. It only shows as $3.6 right now because he’s in the minors. I can’t see Calgary being overly interested either. Centre isn’t really a weakness there and there aren’t many teams that have less need for Pouliot than the Flames. Their D Corp is top notch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underrated Posted December 21, 2018 Author Share Posted December 21, 2018 7 minutes ago, coastal.view said: so you are basically saying ottawa is giving up chabot for virt and hutton ?? since the other 2 players are dead weight I don't see any way in which Gagner and Ryan's contracts are comparable. Ryan has four more years, and a much higher cost. I can see Ottawa holding out for not retaining any cap hit if parting with Chabot. But clearly this isn't a straight talent deal for Chabot, this is a money motivated deal by getting rid of Ryan. If they retain 2 million, Ryan still has 22 million left. If they don't, it's 30 million. Gagner has 6.4 million over two years. (Both are slightly less due to the season already being underway). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
48MPHSlapShot Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 No way the Sens move Chabot. Would you move Pettersson? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil_314 Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 Benning may not be the best trading G.M. but I'd still feel that a 2nd and 4th for a 40-point D-man (over 82 game pace) in Edler from a contender (which likely means late picks) is underwhelming. Teams that go all-in historically peddle their late first-round picks relatively easily esp. for patching holes in their roster, and I would contend that a late first would probably be in the picture, even if it costs some dead weight in return. Also think that Ottawa must be super-desperate to trade another point-per-game D-man, even if it's for a top-6 level forward and top-4 D-man. Guys like Chabot are important and take awhile to develop, and they have no reason to tank after losing their 1st. Hutton's not in the same level as a replacement. I would probably take Alzner from Montreal, hope we can trade Del Zotto and then pair Karl with Stecher. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coastal.view Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 43 minutes ago, underrated said: I don't see any way in which Gagner and Ryan's contracts are comparable. Ryan has four more years, and a much higher cost. I can see Ottawa holding out for not retaining any cap hit if parting with Chabot. But clearly this isn't a straight talent deal for Chabot, this is a money motivated deal by getting rid of Ryan. If they retain 2 million, Ryan still has 22 million left. If they don't, it's 30 million. Gagner has 6.4 million over two years. (Both are slightly less due to the season already being underway). go ahead ignore the cost of resigning hutton and virt hutton is up after this season virt in 2 you want the money to work to motivate ottawa but i don't think there is much motivation and if you crunch the numbers it costs ottawa more for the next 2 seasons for sure and beyond that .. likely as well Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCanuck94 Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 7 hours ago, underrated said: To Ottawa: Jake Virtanen, Ben Hutton, Sam Gagner, Toronto's 2nd round pick To Vancouver: Bobby Ryan ($2 million retained per season), Thomas Chabot See my other Topic for further thoughts on this. I doubt Ottawa parts with Chabot since he's elite, but Melnyk may be desperate to save the $29 million on Ryan's contract, and if so, we should swoop in and capitalize by trading a non-elite young player like Virtanen, an expiring RFA contract like Hutton, and a much less contract dump of Gagner plus a pick. For the Canucks, they get an elite young piece for their core going forward and rather than giving top young assets, we pay for Chabot by taking on Ryan's horrible contract. Potentially the 2nd round pick and $2 million could be removed from this deal, but I think Ottawa would like the pick and Vancouver will find $5.5 much more manageable, especially if we try to trade him in 2-3 years. 7 hours ago, -AJ- said: The second deal is the most intriguing. As much as it would kill me to give up on Jake, Chabot would certainly be worth it. All that said, I think there's an awful lot of hype for Chabot right now and it might even take a bit more to get him. A bit more? You're not getting half of Chabot for that package. Any deal for Chabot has Pettersson, Boeser or Hughes in it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nucker 67 Posted December 21, 2018 Share Posted December 21, 2018 TOR could win it all or get close, so their 1st might be at #30. A 2nd (#60) and a 4th (#120) - I think Edler is worth more than that. It would be the Leafs wanting Edler to try and win a Cup, so they would have to pay the price. to TOR - Edler to VAN - 1st and a prospect How bad do you want him TOR? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noble 6 Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 Trade 1: I like the premise of trading Edler for futures and think it would be best for the organization. I think he'd land a 1st, but I'd be happy with a 2nd and 4th. If it's anything lower than a 2nd then it's too low and we might as well keep him. Trade 2: Benning should be fired if he says no to that and Dorion should be fired if he says yes to that. Something along the lines of Boeser+ for Chabot is interesting, but I can't even see that happening. Trade 3: The concept makes sense, but I don't think Sutter is the type of player that will put the Flames over the top. They also traded their 1st last year and lost out on Dobson because of it, so I doubt they'd be interested in dealing another one unless it's a surefire fit. Thanks for sharing your ideas and explaining each move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danaimo Posted December 22, 2018 Share Posted December 22, 2018 Pretty reasonable proposal. As others have stated I doubt whether we get Chabot from Ott unless we offer up more than JV. Switch out Brock for Jake and I think that trade is more palatable for Ott. Van definitely need to land an elite dman, but will have to give out one of their top young forwards to get one. Out of Bo, Brock or Petey, Brock would be the one I would trade if I was JB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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