[Trade] Lightning trade J.T. Miller to Canucks for Marek Mazanec, 2019 3rd-round pick, 2020 conditional 1st-round pick

[HomeBrew]

40 minutes ago, peaches5 said:

Apparently saying Vancouver paid the asking price means I have NHL executive experience and I need to prove my credentials. When I stated this was actually what was said at the time by analysts etc I was mocked and then when I posted an article proving that it was ignored. I wonder why. 

The odd thing I've found in this entire argument of yours is that you feel as though you know what the asking price was, what the value was, what the negotiations occurred, that someone could have negotiated for more. The fact is you know none of this. 

 

Also, the actual trade value received is yet to be determined as the pick has not been delivered yet. This was a trade based on chance and risk, and that risk so far is trending in our favour. Vancouver was obviously looking at this and thinking "our players are good enough to make the playoffs, that pick won't be of high value" and Tampa was thinking "they are a bottom tier team and we could end up with a top 10 pick, we'll take that chance." BECAUSE it was a trade based on risk factors, the actual end results will determine whether this was a "good trade" or a "bad trade". Thus, why you have pundits (ie Ian MacIntyre) stating that this could turn out to be a bad trade, but they didn't actually know that at the time - they are just trying to write something that is interesting based on the risk involved. It is easy to see why you are confused by all this, but not so easy to see why you believe to know all this first hand knowledge I mentioned previously. That is just bizarre. 

[peaches5]

1 hour ago, HomeBrew said:

The odd thing I've found in this entire argument of yours is that you feel as though you know what the asking price was, what the value was, what the negotiations occurred, that someone could have negotiated for more. The fact is you know none of this. 

 

Also, the actual trade value received is yet to be determined as the pick has not been delivered yet. This was a trade based on chance and risk, and that risk so far is trending in our favour. Vancouver was obviously looking at this and thinking "our players are good enough to make the playoffs, that pick won't be of high value" and Tampa was thinking "they are a bottom tier team and we could end up with a top 10 pick, we'll take that chance." BECAUSE it was a trade based on risk factors, the actual end results will determine whether this was a "good trade" or a "bad trade". Thus, why you have pundits (ie Ian MacIntyre) stating that this could turn out to be a bad trade, but they didn't actually know that at the time - they are just trying to write something that is interesting based on the risk involved. It is easy to see why you are confused by all this, but not so easy to see why you believe to know all this first hand knowledge I mentioned previously. That is just bizarre. 

As I stated it was reported that Vancouver accepted what Tampa had asked for. This was not my opinion. It was reported that The Canucks heard the offer and decided to take the deal instead of holding out for a better deal and risk losing out on JT Miller. I linked an Ian Macintyre article which backed up that the cost of JT Miller was high and would cost JB his job, likely, if it didn't pan out. You look at what Tampa agreed to. They agreed to allow the pick to move to 2021 should Vancouver miss the playoffs. If it were worded differently it would benefit Vancouver and there would be benefit Tampa as well. 

Edited January 26, 2020 by peaches5

[peaches5]

2 hours ago, debluvscanucks said:

Here's that double talk (again)...if you want people to take you seriously, pick a side and stay there.  Don't sit on the fence and move around accordingly.

 

 

Then you've changed your mind?  The goalposts again?

 

Then you go on to slam Miller to support he wasn't worth it.  It doesn't seem like you're even clear on the point you're trying to make so you can't expect us to "get it".

 

Now you're back pedalling, so I have no further need to engage in this as it's a time waster.  It's such a pointless argument...things DID turn out so it was (draft picks) money well spent.  

 

 

I said and have repeatedly said the trade was fair, but based on what Tampa was up against the deal should have been more lopsided. I have never recanted that. I said JB should have protected the pick better to decrease the chances of it being a lottery pick. You had Tampa up against the wall and you let them off with a fair deal. It was reported at the time that no one was biting on the JT Miller offers except Vancouver. I was rebutting all these posts after seeing how good JT Miller has been as justification for not squeezing Tampa. If JT Miller turns into a career thirdliner and you sent over a lottery pick for him it doesn't look too good does it? There are a lot of positives things that have contributed to this trade looking better than it was. Quinn Hughes, Markstrom and JT Miller's play all play factors in making the trade look better after the fact. If all those things don't happen and Canucks are a non-playoff team this year you're suddenly wishing JB had protected that pick better.

 

 

[coastal.view]

55 minutes ago, peaches5 said:

I said and have repeatedly said the trade was fair, but based on what Tampa was up against the deal should have been more lopsided.

man for someone unbiased and presumably balanced

you appear to have an unhealthy commitment to this thread

 

maybe take a break

post in another thread

take your blinders off

broaden your horizons

 

there is nothing to win here

you know you are repeating yourself

this is way too much work over the value being offered up

 

chill man

Edited January 27, 2020 by coastal.view

[Pears]

1 hour ago, peaches5 said:

I said and have repeatedly said the trade was fair, but based on what Tampa was up against the deal should have been more lopsided. I have never recanted that. I said JB should have protected the pick better to decrease the chances of it being a lottery pick. You had Tampa up against the wall and you let them off with a fair deal. It was reported at the time that no one was biting on the JT Miller offers except Vancouver. I was rebutting all these posts after seeing how good JT Miller has been as justification for not squeezing Tampa. If JT Miller turns into a career thirdliner and you sent over a lottery pick for him it doesn't look too good does it? There are a lot of positives things that have contributed to this trade looking better than it was. Quinn Hughes, Markstrom and JT Miller's play all play factors in making the trade look better after the fact. If all those things don't happen and Canucks are a non-playoff team this year you're suddenly wishing JB had protected that pick better.

 

 

Miller was a good player for Tampa and he’s been a good player for us. You gotta understand that despite them being up against the cap in a certain way that they still weren’t just gonna give him up. 

[Kanukfanatic]

1 hour ago, peaches5 said:

1.  I said and have repeatedly said the trade was fair, but based on what Tampa was up against the deal should have been more lopsided.

 

2.  You had Tampa up against the wall and you let them off with a fair deal.

 

3.  It was reported at the time that no one was biting on the JT Miller offers except Vancouver.

 

1.  Tampa was not "up against" anything. They needed to trade a player for cap reasons but there was no hurry.  You make it sound like they had to trade JT Miller and it had to be done that day.   They were not up against anything. They had months and 30 teams to make a good trade with for one of their good players.

 

You keep saying that. You keep making that up over and over.

 

2.  They were not up against any wall.  See #1. Quit making that up.

 

3.  Link   -->   It was reported at the time that no one was biting on the JT Miller offers except Vancouver.   

 

Another made up line of yours.

 

Edited January 27, 2020 by Kanukfanatic

[HomeBrew]

1 hour ago, peaches5 said:

As I stated it was reported that Vancouver accepted what Tampa had asked for. This was not my opinion. It was reported that The Canucks heard the offer and decided to take the deal instead of holding out for a better deal and risk losing out on JT Miller. I linked an Ian Macintyre article which backed up that the cost of JT Miller was high and would cost JB his job, likely, if it didn't pan out. You look at what Tampa agreed to. They agreed to allow the pick to move to 2021 should Vancouver miss the playoffs. If it were worded differently it would benefit Vancouver and there would be benefit Tampa as well. 

Like I said, bizarre. That article you linked states nothing of the sort (https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/canucks-make-bold-j-t-miller-trade-questions-remain-defence/). 

 

EDIT: And just to back up most people's perspective and how bizarre your take is, here is a quote from Benning himself: “They were asking for more than we gave up,” Benning said. “I don’t like trading first-round picks but I thought this was the right guy.”

 

Source: (https://nationalpost.com/sports/hockey/nhl/ed-willes-canucks-paid-a-high-price-for-j-t-miller-but-hes-been-worth-every-penny/wcm/5b2d2535-802b-4095-ba2d-124bed77e61b?video_autoplay=true)

Edited January 27, 2020 by HomeBrew

[peaches5]

6 minutes ago, Kanukfanatic said:

1.  Tampa was not "up against" anything. They needed to trade a player for cap reasons but there was no hurry.  You make it sound like they had to trade JT Miller and it had to be done that day.   They were not up against anything. They had months and 30 teams to make a good trade with for one of their good players.

 

You keep saying that. You keep making that up over and over.

 

2.  They were not up against any wall.  See #1. Quit making that up.

 

3.  Link   -->   It was reported at the time that no one was biting on the JT Miller offers except Vancouver.   

 

Another made up line of yours.

 

MIller had a M-NTC kicking in July 1st.  Tampa had to move him before that kicked or they would limiting their options. Vancouver might not have even been on his trade list

 

Here's another quote from an article directly after the trade:

 

Quote

 

The Canucks instead acquired versatile forward J.T. Miller, 26, from the Tampa Bay Lightning for goalie Marek Mazanec, a 2019 third-round pick and a conditional first-round pick either in next year’s draft or the year after.

That’s a lot to surrender — especially with the potential of having to part with a first-round pick — for a guy who has never scored more than 22 NHL goals.

 

 

Here's also proof of his NTC:

 

Quote

His deal also includes a modified no-trade clause and Miller can submit a list of eight teams he can’t be dealt to. But landing Miller before his MNTC kicks in means the Canucks don’t have to be bound by contract limitations. The cap-strapped Lightning did not retain any of his salary in the deal.

https://theprovince.com/sports/hockey/ben-kuzma-canucks-find-versatility-cost-certainty-in-trade-for-j-t-miller

 

I don't have links to the reports because they were on TV and you aren't going to find them on google. It doesn't mean they didn't happen. Unlike you how has made blatantly false claims. I have backed up the majority of what I've posted.

 

Here's some Brisbois quotes after the trade:

Quote

“We’ve been able to work the cap and keep all our players,” BriseBois told reporters in Vancouver. “We’ve been saying eventually we were going to have to move someone.”

Quote

He said the Lightning had to move a good player on a good contract to keep players “who are a little more integral to the core of our team.”

Quote

"It's a big-picture trade," Julien BriseBois said at the conclusion of his first NHL draft as Lightning general manager. "Eventually we had to move some money out, and unfortunately, J.T.'s the one guy who didn't have the no-trade clause. He was the easiest one to move."

Quote

BriseBois said moving Miller along with a "worst-case" scenario of placing Ryan Callahan on long-term injury exemption gives the Lightning a little breathing room in terms of the salary cap, the upper limit announced at $81.5 million following the draft. The moves should allow them to get a deal completed for their biggest priority Point, whom BriseBois said he isn't concerned he'll be able to sign to a new contract, but it remains early in the process.

To even imply that weren't capped strapped..Are you kidding me?

 

15 minutes ago, Pears said:

Miller was a good player for Tampa and he’s been a good player for us. You gotta understand that despite them being up against the cap in a certain way that they still weren’t just gonna give him up. 

You always want to see your team be on the clear winning side of a trade. I think from what Tampa agreed to some small modifications to the conditions on that first would have made the deal much better for The Canucks. 

[Rob_Zepp]

On 1/24/2020 at 6:24 PM, peaches5 said:

After the trade it is discussed by the NHL analysts and insiders and everything I said is what they said. You guys have completely forgotten what the NHL brass said when the trade was announced and the weeks after it. 

 

What people are saying now is nowhere near what was said in the summer. 

Some of us listen and talk to people that don't just post to Reddit.   There isn't a single true "insider" that gives out information to the masses that is nearly as good as you get off of the record.   As far as the "NHL brass"....why would the management of the NHL had said anything?   This was a coveted player that Tampa let known was available for the right price and Vancouver was one of several teams who jumped into the pool.   What is so hard to understand about that?   

[peaches5]

10 minutes ago, HomeBrew said:

Like I said, bizarre. That article you linked states nothing of the sort (https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/canucks-make-bold-j-t-miller-trade-questions-remain-defence/). 

i didn't say the article showed reports I said it shows what the, general consensus, of the value of JT Miller was at the time of the trade. What The Canucks paid was seen as quite a lot.

[HomeBrew]

3 minutes ago, peaches5 said:

i didn't say the article showed reports I said it shows what the, general consensus, of the value of JT Miller was at the time of the trade. What The Canucks paid was seen as quite a lot.

It doesn't even do that. No where does it make that statement or show what the general consensus was. 

 

And just to repost my previous edit: just to back up most people's perspective and how bizarre your take is, here is a quote from Benning himself: “They were asking for more than we gave up,” Benning said. “I don’t like trading first-round picks but I thought this was the right guy.”

 

Source: (https://nationalpost.com/sports/hockey/nhl/ed-willes-canucks-paid-a-high-price-for-j-t-miller-but-hes-been-worth-every-penny/wcm/5b2d2535-802b-4095-ba2d-124bed77e61b?video_autoplay=true)

Edited January 27, 2020 by HomeBrew

[peaches5]

1 minute ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Some of us listen and talk to people that don't just post to Reddit.   There isn't a single true "insider" that gives out information to the masses that is nearly as good as you get off of the record.   As far as the "NHL brass"....why would the management of the NHL had said anything?   This was a coveted player that Tampa let known was available for the right price and Vancouver was one of several teams who jumped into the pool.   What is so hard to understand about that?   

Once again I am not using people's posts are sources of information. The trade was being discussed on TV by reputable people during the draft I don't have the video because I don't record TV as I am watching it. What was discussed was Tampa was shopping JT Miller and Vancouver was the team that stepped up and paid the asking price. Then it was discussed how Vancouver could have gotten more but were afraid of losing JT Miller so they took the fair deal.

 

https://www.nhl.com/lightning/news/jt-miller-trade-nets-bolts-draft-picks-and-salary-cap-breathing-room/c-308013410

 

The deal was completed on the day.

[peaches5]

6 minutes ago, HomeBrew said:

It doesn't even do that. No where does it make that statement or show what the general consensus was. 

 

And just to repost my previous edit: just to back up most people's perspective and how bizarre your take is, here is a quote from Benning himself: “They were asking for more than we gave up,” Benning said. “I don’t like trading first-round picks but I thought this was the right guy.”

 

Source: (https://nationalpost.com/sports/hockey/nhl/ed-willes-canucks-paid-a-high-price-for-j-t-miller-but-hes-been-worth-every-penny/wcm/5b2d2535-802b-4095-ba2d-124bed77e61b?video_autoplay=true)

You have two reputable sports reporters saying the trade was steep price and Benning himself saying the trade was fair, at the time of this trade. It was not seen as this landslide victory of a trade were Vancouver ripped off Tampa Bay. It could have easily come back and bit The Canucks. 

[Rob_Zepp]

4 hours ago, peaches5 said:

I was mocked and I wonder why. 

[Kanukfanatic]

Man JB made a great trade for JT Miller last summer. He has played lights out.

 

He totally screwed Tampa on that trade.  Hahaha, consensus out there somewhere was that JB bent over Tampa.  All the peoples said it...I don't have the quotes though, or names, or video.  But theys alls says it....JB screwed them tampa guyzzz......

 

 

 

 

Edit: I better put the  so anyone reading this thread that skipped the last five pages doesn't take my post seriously.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Kanukfanatic

[Rob_Zepp]

6 minutes ago, peaches5 said:

they took the fair deal

Uh, yes they did.   You have spent the last 30 pages or so arguing otherwise.   I hope the colour of the sky you find currently in your world can stick for a while.    

[Kanukfanatic]

From sportsnet:  The 5 best lines in the NHL halfway through the 2019-20 season:

 

Petterson / Boeser / JT Miller

Sticking around and leading the division in a year where no one expected much out of them, the Vancouver Canucks have been a team of bright spots and exciting futures this season. And the brightest of all of them is that incredible top line led by Elias Pettersson.

The Pettersson line has actually fallen off in controlling both shot volume and shot quality by location compared to the first quarter of the season, but they’ve increased their control of slot passes, and maintained a completely consistent pattern of controlling two thirds of all goals scored while they’re on the ice.

 

You may have noticed a bit of a pattern among these top lines; that their goals for percentages have all outpaced their other differentials, which could imply that they’re all getting relatively lucky, but that’s true of each line’s expected goals for percentages according to SPORTLOGiQ’s data as well, they’re each more than the sum of the surface inputs.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Kanukfanatic

[Rob_Zepp]

16 minutes ago, peaches5 said:

What The Canucks paid was seen as quite a lot.

Now you are back to arguing with yourself.   Sigh.   Yes, they paid a lot because stud great players need a lot to be paid to get them in a trade.  When said great player is a great fit for your team, signed at term and a very reasonable AAV then you get even more excited when your offer is accepted over the others in competition for said player.

 

I am curious what it is like to argue with yourself.   

 

After you are done and one of the yous wins, do you settle up somewhere and have make up ...... well, you know (family show remember).    Is it sort of a left hand/right hand competition thing?    Tell you what, we don't need to really know.    

[HomeBrew]

2 minutes ago, peaches5 said:

You have two reputable sports reporters saying the trade was steep price and Benning himself saying the trade was fair, at the time of this trade. It was not seen as this landslide victory of a trade were Vancouver ripped off Tampa Bay. It could have easily come back and bit The Canucks. 

Reading comprehension fails you apparently. 

 

1. A first round pick is always a high price to give away. It doesn't mean they gave up too much. 

2. Who cares? 

3. Yeah, it could. But, it might not. What's your point? 

[peaches5]

1 minute ago, Rob_Zepp said:

Uh, yes they did.   You have spent the last 30 pages or so arguing otherwise.   I hope the colour of the sky you find currently in your world can stick for a while.    

No, I haven't. The argument was this was a fair deal, I think they could have gotten more lopsided, and that JT Miller stellar play doesn't change the value of the trade because you could not have predicted how good he would be this year. Any time someone pointed that out it was attacked. No one was saying it was a horrible trade. Anytime, something that wasn't overly positive was posted it was attacked. There needs to be two sides to a discussion and some of these formulas of judging this trade people have created are ridiculous.

 

2 minutes ago, Kanukfanatic said:

Man JB made a great trade for JT Miller last summer. He has played lights out.

 

He totally screwed Tampa on that trade.  Hahaha, consensus out there somewhere was that JB bent over Tampa.  All the peoples said it...I don't have the quotes though, or names, or video.  But theys alls says it....JB screwed them tampa guyzzz......

 

 

 

 

Edit: I better put the  so anyone reading this thread that skipped the last five pages doesn't take my post seriously.

You just can't reply to posts that show you are blatantly wrong. Second time you've done it.