THIS HOCKEY WITCH HUNT HAS TO STOP!

[Nucker 67]

Well, one thing, the stories about Babcock and other coaches, how they treated players is interesting. I don't feel sorry for anyone making millions of dollars playing a game. Even if that althlete has to take some verbal abuse from fans on occasion. I'd hate to think were getting to a point where they'll just declare all of the teams are winners and all deserve a blue ribbon lol  Don't want to hurt anyone's feelings.

 

[Toews]

5 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said:

I have been thinking about this in a larger context for some time now...…...here is my point

 

300 years ago in Europe, whipping your servant was accepted...…...you would be expected to, if he did not listen

Societies laws were just that......it was the norm

 

50 years ago, When I was 12, society had evolved to a point that in Canada, it was being frowned upon to call an African American "N" word

 

To me, that seemed a  fair evolution, and that "man in general had accepted that evolution, but to my chagrin, I was naïve and found out that

the people in my world had changed, but that in many parts of the world, and including in parts of my world, it had not changed...…...

 

Now, when I look back, I do not judge those people as bad, but ignorant, as they personally did know know better. As a matter of a fact, my

best friends dad, was a real bigot, when I first met him, and as society became more accepting, so did he. Do I blame him? No I don't.

I acknowledge that his up bringing, had created his demeanor...…...

 

Today, we have become more politically correct and intolerant of ignorance, and blame and punish those did not know better...…...to me, we have known 

for centuries not to murder, but it is still acceptable to some extent to spank or slap a hand a child, if it is under the appropriate circumstance.

 

As society ages and develops in the western world, these are now being more and more frowned upon, as the domino's continue to fall. My point again

is that you can not punish a cave man for wheedling a club, you must educate him.

 

In Peter's case, it was only 12 years ago, he should have known better, but he is only one generation away, from where it was accepted, and his own ignorance

and upbringing may have played a part in his actions.

 

He should have apologized then, and he should have apologized now, and should have been given the choice of taking education courses to deal with his upbringing

and actions, so he could better understand his wrong doing. But IMO, to wait 10 years, to punish him for his "Lesser" crime, seems excessively punitive.

 

To me, it is a crime created by society of yester year, and not in the same mode as high crimes of murder, incest, assault, or continuous mental cruelty, etc. Which have no 

statues of limitations.

 

IMO, people are over reacting in a huge way...…. Where is the act of forgiveness?

Fun Fact Peters hails from Killam, Alberta. The local hockey team was previously named the "Killam Indians", the pun was of course intended. 

[J.I.A.H.N]

1 minute ago, VforVirtanen said:

So 50 years ago you learned it was wrong to use a racist slur. 
 

38 years later Peters uses a racist slur and abuses a player and you feel we didn’t give him enough time to understand fully that this was wrong. 
 

Either you are incredibly forward thinking or he is completely undeserving of your sympathy. 

No, I am not giving him my sympathy, but rather my forgiveness and understanding

 

Big difference......

[VforVasili]

2 minutes ago, Dekey Pete said:

See and I think we're starting to get on the same page a little here.  So you're saying by the time you were 37 you had learned to treat people with respect, but unfortunately not everyone follows the same life path.  Some people are dicks until they are 40, some until they're 80.  

 

Take Marc Crawford for example, he may have done some crappy things as a coach back when he was with the Canucks, but by all accounts he's grown and is actually quite the 'players coach' now.  Should he be fired/force resigned because of dumb decisions he made back then? 

 

That's where I think the problem is.  Everyone is going to have a different "statute of limitations" here based on their own personal experiences.  

Yeah and his case was examined and clearly the team agreed as he has not been fired to my knowledge.  
 

So people are overreacting with fear of a slippery slope that doesn’t exist. 
 

Crow did some stupid stuff but it wasn’t in the same league as the others so he may have been investigated but what else has come of it?

[J.I.A.H.N]

1 minute ago, Toews said:

Fun Fact Peters hails from Killam, Alberta. The local hockey team was previously named the "Killam Indians", the pun was of course intended. 

I hope not!

[48MPHSlapShot]

1 minute ago, VforVirtanen said:

Yeah I agree but I have faith people are equipped with rational thought and can tell the difference. 
 

No one has been fired for anything that wasn’t well deserved in my opinion, even though some of the things coming out were poor judgement they weren’t criminal or worthy of being fired. 
 

I'm not so sure about that. The mob mentality is always something that can rear it's ugly head. The parallels to Me Too are pretty apparent, and anyone that's honest with themselves know the issues that have cropped up with Me Too. False allegations, guilty until proven innocent, the very definition of consent being put into question. Yes, more scumbags and abusers have been made accountable for their actions, which is obviously a net positive, but people need to be careful that they don't start to slip into that "mob mentality".

 

People also need to take into account that, yes, the culture changes over time, and things that were acceptable years ago aren't acceptable now, and it's a helluva thing to hold someone's past actions to a modern standard when that wasn't the standard at the time of the alleged issue. 

 

Also, we should take into consideration that we're talking about grown-ass men here. Not underage kids or women. Regardless of what some may say, that makes a difference. A man smacking another dude across the head is a much different story than a man hitting a woman or a child. Not to say coaches should be hitting players, but c'mon man, it's hockey. Players beat the $&!# out of each other for a living. 

[VforVasili]

3 minutes ago, Gaudette Celly said:

Statements in general application, not to address any specific example.

Right, but that’s the point I am trying to make. People are acting like there is a war in rational thought but there is zero evidence that is happening. 
 

Same thing that happened with “me too”. 

[J.I.A.H.N]

Look, IMO

 

Peters should have come out and said how he was ashamed of his actions, and that she should have known better, and that he obviously had not been sensitive enough, and that he was reaching out to apoligize...and that he was going to atone somehow...….

 

He did not do any favours to himself...……….but that is more my point...…...he does not understand...….he is ignorant...…….

 

There fore....needs to be taught, not punished

[VforVasili]

3 minutes ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

I'm not so sure about that. The mob mentality is always something that can rear it's ugly head. The parallels to Me Too are pretty apparent, and anyone that's honest with themselves know the issues that have cropped up with Me Too. False allegations, guilty until proven innocent, the very definition of consent being put into question. Yes, more scumbags and abusers have been made accountable for their actions, which is obviously a net positive, but people need to be careful that they don't start to slip into that "mob mentality".

 

People also need to take into account that, yes, the culture changes over time, and things that were acceptable years ago aren't acceptable now, and it's a helluva thing to hold someone's past actions to a modern standard when that wasn't the standard at the time of the alleged issue. 

 

Also, we should take into consideration that we're talking about grown-ass men here. Not underage kids or women. Regardless of what some may say, that makes a difference. A man smacking another dude across the head is a much different story than a man hitting a woman or a child. Not to say coaches should be hitting players, but c'mon man, it's hockey. Players beat the $&!# out of each other for a living. 

You say this happened with me too. 
 

What were the high profile public cases that were proven to be false? 
 

I can think of one, that was instituted by a trump supporter trying to prove that “me too” was a problem and he was quickly caught. 
 

Any others? 
 

This is my point. Lots of people whined and complained that would happen but it didn’t actually happen with any of these cases. The people who were convicted were undisputed scumbags. 

[Gaudette Celly]

3 minutes ago, VforVirtanen said:

Right, but that’s the point I am trying to make. People are acting like there is a war in rational thought but there is zero evidence that is happening. 
 

Same thing that happened with “me too”. 

Ron "white guilt" MacLean will have to vehemently disagree.

[VforVasili]

2 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said:

Look, IMO

 

Peters should have come out and said how he was ashamed of his actions, and that she should have known better, and that he obviously had not been sensitive enough, and that he was reaching out to apoligize...and that he was going to atone somehow...….

 

He did not do any favours to himself...……….but that is more my point...…...he does not understand...….he is ignorant...…….

 

There fore....needs to be taught, not punished

But still fired. I agree he would not have been fired if he had taken responsibility. 

[Gaudette Celly]

3 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said:

He did not do any favours to himself...……….but that is more my point...…...he does not understand...….he is ignorant...…….

 

There fore....needs to be taught, not punished

"Sensitivity training" is clearly not enough; time to step up to full re-education camps.

[VforVasili]

Just now, Gaudette Celly said:

"Sensitivity training" is clearly not enough; time to step up to full re-education camps.

@janisahockeynut Hey look it’s one of those ignorant people you were talking about! 

[J.I.A.H.N]

53 minutes ago, VforVirtanen said:

Have you seen any evidence so far that it is likely you will be fired or charged for the above scenario? 
 

The only people who have been charged and maligned took actions that were extreme and reprehensible. This has nothing to do with your example. 
 

I get that people are afraid but I don’t agree it is a rational response to people being held accountable for past actions that were without question over the line. 

Over the line....yes

But was it a continuous thing?

No, I don't think so

Was it upsetting

Momentarily, probably

Devastating, beyond repair?

I don't think so

[J.I.A.H.N]

5 minutes ago, VforVirtanen said:

But still fired. I agree he would not have been fired if he had taken responsibility. 

But if he honestly could not understand the pain he cause...…..

 

He needs to be taught, not punished

[J.I.A.H.N]

6 minutes ago, VforVirtanen said:

@janisahockeynut Hey look it’s one of those ignorant people you were talking about! 

I hope that is not directed at me...…..

[VforVasili]

Just now, janisahockeynut said:

I hope that is not directed at me...…..

No the person spouting about “white guilt” and “re-education camps”.

 

i think you and I are not that far apart in how we see things. 

[higgyfan]

Personally, I like this...

 

"When I played, Pat Quinn was the GM and one thing I learned was that he treated everyone with respect. I said to myself if I ever get to work in the league or GM someday, I’m going to make sure our organization treats our players with respect. We have tough decisions to make on players and those are tough conversations but I think from our standpoint, we always try to be honest with the players and treat them with the respect they deserve. Hockey culture has changed, when I played in the '80s coaches yelled, screamed and embarrassed players. Society changes, the expectations of what’s proper and what’s not, it relates to hockey too. I talk to Travis about this and he liked the coaches that were honest with him."  Jim Benning

 

I find that people respond better if they feel respected.  There's no need to bully other people just because you are in a position of authority/power.  A person that uses these techniques simply doesn't have the wherewithal to address a critical situation any other way.

 

I am happy to see these old school approaches go by the wayside. 

 

 

[J.I.A.H.N]

I think this is a huge issue and one where people on every side are not perfect......

 

I have many friends of different heritages...…...all great people and all not perfect, as I 

 

I think there is so much miss-understanding on this issue......

 

and I could tell stories re-verse racism, and prejudices, and back the other way again, 

 

around and around, and I think this is healthy to have this discussion. But is the answer

 

education and tolerance or Punishment and isolation?

[J.I.A.H.N]

5 minutes ago, higgyfan said:

Personally, I like this...

 

"When I played, Pat Quinn was the GM and one thing I learned was that he treated everyone with respect. I said to myself if I ever get to work in the league or GM someday, I’m going to make sure our organization treats our players with respect. We have tough decisions to make on players and those are tough conversations but I think from our standpoint, we always try to be honest with the players and treat them with the respect they deserve. Hockey culture has changed, when I played in the '80s coaches yelled, screamed and embarrassed players. Society changes, the expectations of what’s proper and what’s not, it relates to hockey too. I talk to Travis about this and he liked the coaches that were honest with him."  Jim Benning

 

I find that people respond better if they feel respected.  There's no need to bully other people just because you are in a position of authority/power.  A person that uses these techniques simply doesn't have the wherewithal to address a critical situation any other way.

 

I am happy to see these old school approaches go by the wayside. 

 

 

I agree whole heartedly Higgy

 

But my question is...……………….in regards to your comment...…………...do we punish or educate?