THIS HOCKEY WITCH HUNT HAS TO STOP!

[VforVasili]

6 minutes ago, Dekey Pete said:

He's being vilified because people want to read about how crappy Babcock was and have all these other stories to corroborate it, and the media is glad to feed it to them.  I'm not denying any of that, I strongly believe he is what people say he is.  My point is, he was fired from the Toronto Maple Leafs and it was well deserved, for being a bad NHL coach and losing the ear of his players.  The extra stories about how bad he treated Marner are just fluff.  They provide some insight into why he probably lost his room, but in the end he was fired for not performing to his contract.

 

Peter's on the other hand, while he may have been (and still be) a crappy human, he was fired over a comment he made (while working a different job) 10 years ago.  That's the difference.

 

edit; I'm sorry, resigned... (which today means fired)

So 10 years ago people didn’t know it wasn’t ok to make racist comments, and shouldn’t be held accountable as a result? 

[48MPHSlapShot]

The racist $&!# is one thing, but I can't help but feeling that some of the allegations coming out are merely a case of sour grapes on behalf of players that didn't like particular coaches, all under the guise of "accountability".

 

If you're an adult man crying about a coach because he smacked you in the back of the helmet once because you were late on a line change, you probably shouldn't be in professional sports. 

[VforVasili]

1 minute ago, 48MPHSlapShot said:

The racist $&!# is one thing, but I can't help but feeling that some of the allegations coming out are merely a case of sour grapes on behalf of players that didn't like particular coaches, all under the guise of "accountability".

 

If you're an adult man crying about a coach because he smacked you in the back of the helmet once because you were late on a line change, you probably shouldn't be in professional sports. 

Yeah I agree but I have faith people are equipped with rational thought and can tell the difference. 
 

No one has been fired for anything that wasn’t well deserved in my opinion, even though some of the things coming out were poor judgement they weren’t criminal or worthy of being fired. 
 

[Nucker 67]

4 minutes ago, Rick Blight said:

This is why you do not see players pushing back at the time of the abuse.

 

He was asked if any of the team leaders confronted Babcock.

“Not really, no; guys talked amongst each other, when some things happened and there was some second guessing and it got to (former general manager) Kenny Holland, Kenny Holland came down to the room and had this speech and supported Mike Babcock," Chelios said. "It was a great speech, but (he told) everybody in the room, ‘If you don’t like it, come up and see me and be traded.’ So that was the way it kind of ended.”

Maybe if Babcock tippy-toed around those guys' feelings they wouldn't have won a Cup with him at the helm. I don't feel sorry for them. He got results. 

[VforVasili]

Before any of you old boomers discount me as a youngster SJW who just doesn’t understand, I am 47 years old and was 37 at the time the oldest incident took place. Firmly Gen X. 
 

if you had asked me then I would have felt that someone saying racist abusive stuff to a player should be fired, end of story. 

[Dekey Pete]

Just now, VforVirtanen said:

Pretty sure people 10 years ago knew it wasn’t okay to use racial slurs to abuse their players. It’s not like we are taking about grandpa spouting 50s culture here. 
 

Are any of you claiming that 10 years ago you didn’t know any better to not say racist stuff, and more so to do so in an abusive manner to someone in your charge?

You're missing the point.  What he did was completely wrong back then just like it is now.  The point is if no one fired him back then for it then it's not fair to suddenly decide 10 years later (while working for a different job) that he should be fired/forced to resign.  Like I said before, this isn't like he physically assaulted someone committed some other crime, he made some very distasteful/racist comment.  

How would you feel if you were defined to the general public by some quote that you made 15 years ago?  Can you remember everything you've ever said to anyone, behind closed doors, anywhere?  

 

AGAIN, hold people accountable to their actions now.  Stop looking backwards.

[VforVasili]

2 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said:

Maybe if Babcock tippy-toed around those guys' feelings they wouldn't have won a Cup with him at the helm. I don't feel sorry for them. He got results. 

He sure didn’t in Toronto. 

[mll]

 

[JM_]

WHEN CAN WE START THE WAR ON ALL CAPS!!!!

[Nucker 67]

1 minute ago, VforVirtanen said:

He sure didn’t in Toronto. 

I know

 

[Gaudette Celly]

56 minutes ago, VforVirtanen said:

Pretty sure it is illegal to assault adults, whether you are their coach or not. 
 

Don’t see the problem with holding people accountable for their past stupidity. 
 

Every case is different of course. 

If they've done something unlawful, then they should be arrested and brought up on criminal charges.

 

If they simply hurt your feelz... it shouldn't have to be said what you should do, if you are in any way a mature adult.

[VforVasili]

1 minute ago, Dekey Pete said:

You're missing the point.  What he did was completely wrong back then just like it is now.  The point is if no one fired him back then for it then it's not fair to suddenly decide 10 years later (while working for a different job) that he should be fired/forced to resign.  Like I said before, this isn't like he physically assaulted someone committed some other crime, he made some very distasteful/racist comment.  

How would you feel if you were defined to the general public by some quote that you made 15 years ago?  Can you remember everything you've ever said to anyone, behind closed doors, anywhere?  

 

AGAIN, hold people accountable to their actions now.  Stop looking backwards.

I understand your point. I disagree on the statute of limitations 

 

10 years ago I was 37 and I can firmly say with confidence I never abused anyone with a racist term. 
 

Take me back 30 years when I was a teenager and I am sure I said some stuff I regret. 
 

What’s reasonable? 10 years seems reasonable to me under these circumstances. I don’t need to throw racist grandpa in jail. 

[VforVasili]

2 minutes ago, NUCKER67 said:

I know

 

On that we can agree haha. 

[J.I.A.H.N]

I have been thinking about this in a larger context for some time now...…...here is my point

 

300 years ago in Europe, whipping your servant was accepted...…...you would be expected to, if he did not listen

Societies laws were just that......it was the norm

 

50 years ago, When I was 12, society had evolved to a point that in Canada, it was being frowned upon to call an African American "N" word

 

To me, that seemed a  fair evolution, and that "man in general had accepted that evolution, but to my chagrin, I was naïve and found out that

the people in my world had changed, but that in many parts of the world, and including in parts of my world, it had not changed...…...

 

Now, when I look back, I do not judge those people as bad, but ignorant, as they personally did know know better. As a matter of a fact, my

best friends dad, was a real bigot, when I first met him, and as society became more accepting, so did he. Do I blame him? No I don't.

I acknowledge that his up bringing, had created his demeanor...…...

 

Today, we have become more politically correct and intolerant of ignorance, and blame and punish those did not know better...…...to me, we have known 

for centuries not to murder, but it is still acceptable to some extent to spank or slap a hand a child, if it is under the appropriate circumstance.

 

As society ages and develops in the western world, these are now being more and more frowned upon, as the domino's continue to fall. My point again

is that you can not punish a cave man for wheedling a club, you must educate him.

 

In Peter's case, it was only 12 years ago, he should have known better, but he is only one generation away, from where it was accepted, and his own ignorance

and upbringing may have played a part in his actions.

 

He should have apologized then, and he should have apologized now, and should have been given the choice of taking education courses to deal with his upbringing

and actions, so he could better understand his wrong doing. But IMO, to wait 10 years, to punish him for his "Lesser" crime, seems excessively punitive.

 

To me, it is a crime created by society of yester year, and not in the same mode as high crimes of murder, incest, assault, or continuous mental cruelty, etc. Which have no 

statues of limitations.

 

IMO, people are over reacting in a huge way...…. Where is the act of forgiveness?

Edited December 3, 2019 by janisahockeynut

[VforVasili]

4 minutes ago, Gaudette Celly said:

If they've done something unlawful, then they should be arrested and brought up on criminal charges.

 

If they simply hurt your feelz... it shouldn't have to be said what you should do, if you are in any way a mature adult.

Which of the cases being discussed do you feel fits in the category of simply “hurting the players feelz”? 
 

Are you cool with the racist slurs or the psychological abuse? 
 

Cause only two people have lost their jobs and those were the situations. 

[Toews]

25 minutes ago, ItTakesAnArmy said:

Franzen - over 700 players each year, over 10 years that is over 7000, It could be that he had a problem that was singular? Maybe some other that was exasperated by the pressure?

He had a concussion and was dealing with depression. Franzen says Babcock's public humiliations were not isolated incidents and that they happened frequently with the message from upstairs being "deal with it or we will trade you". Targeting one player to send a message to the entire group is not coaching, it is scapegoating. Benching a player when they are in their hometown with family coming in is petty and vindictive.

 

Babcock, I think deserves another shot but if I were in his next employer I would have him sign on the dotted line saying that he isn't going to mess with player's heads, or use one player to send a message to the group. If he is a good enough coach then he will simply have to find other methods to motivate his team. 

[Dekey Pete]

2 minutes ago, VforVirtanen said:

I understand your point. I disagree on the statute of limitations 

 

10 years ago I was 37 and I can firmly say with confidence I never abused anyone with a racist term. 
 

Take me back 30 years when I was a teenager and I am sure I said some stuff I regret. 
 

What’s reasonable? 10 years seems reasonable to me under these circumstances. I don’t need to throw racist grandpa in jail. 

See and I think we're starting to get on the same page a little here.  So you're saying by the time you were 37 you had learned to treat people with respect, but unfortunately not everyone follows the same life path.  Some people are dicks until they are 40, some until they're 80.  

 

Take Marc Crawford for example, he may have done some crappy things as a coach back when he was with the Canucks, but by all accounts he's grown and is actually quite the 'players coach' now.  Should he be fired/force resigned because of dumb decisions he made back then? 

 

That's where I think the problem is.  Everyone is going to have a different "statute of limitations" here based on their own personal experiences.  

[Gaudette Celly]

2 minutes ago, VforVirtanen said:

Which of the cases being discussed do you feel fits in the category of simply “hurting the players feelz”? 
 

Are you cool with the racist slurs or the psychological abuse? 
 

Cause only two people have lost their jobs and those were the situations. 

Statements in general application, not to address any specific example.

[J-23]

35 minutes ago, VforVirtanen said:

For those saying it was 10 years ago and will this keep happening: If they were respected or believed and part of a culture of accountability I guarantee they would have come forward back then. 
 

That didn’t exist at the time. Don’t blame the victims for being afraid to get into a fight they had zero chance of winning. 

The 10 years ago argument is so stupid.

 

It’s like saying those weirdos in Hollywood should still have their jobs because they sexually assaulted women 10-20 years ago.

[VforVasili]

3 minutes ago, janisahockeynut said:

I have been thinking about this in a larger context for some time now...…...here is my point

 

300 years ago in Europe, whipping your servant was accepted...…...you would be expected to, if he did not listen

Societies laws were just that......it was the norm

 

50 years ago, When I was 12, society had evolved to a point that in Canada, it was being frowned upon to call an African American "N" word

 

To me, that seemed a  fair evolution, and that "man in general had accepted that evolution, but to my chagrin, I was naïve and found out that

the people in my world had changed, but that in many parts of the world, and including in parts of my world, it had not changed...…...

 

Now, when I look back, I do not judge those people as bad, but ignorant, as they personally did know know better. As a matter of a fact, my

best friends dad, was a real bigot, when I first met him, and as society became more accepting, so did he. Do I blame him? No I don't.

I acknowledge that his up bringing, had created his demeanor...…...

 

Today, we have become more politically correct and intolerant of ignorance, and blame and punish those did not know better...…...to me, we have known 

for centuries not to murder, but it is still acceptable to some extent to spank or slap a hand a child, if it is under the appropriate circumstance.

 

As society ages and develops in the western world, these are now being more and more frowned upon, as the domino's continue to fall. My point again

is that you can not punish a save man for wheedling a club, you must educate him.

 

In Peter's case, it was only 12 years ago, he should have known better, but he is only one generation away, from where it was accepted, and his own ignorance

and upbringing may have played a part in his actions.

 

He should have apologized then, and he should have apologized now, and should have been given the choice of taking education courses to deal with his upbringing

and actions, so he could better understand his wrong doing. But IMO, to wait 10 years, to punish him for his "Lesser" crime, seems excessively punitive.

 

To me, it is a crime created by society of yester year, and not in the same mode as high crimes of murder, incest, assault, or continuous mental cruelty, etc. Which have no 

statues of limitations.

 

IMO, people are over reacting in a huge way...…. Where is the act of forgiveness?

So 50 years ago you learned it was wrong to use a racist slur. 
 

38 years later Peters uses a racist slur and abuses a player and you feel we didn’t give him enough time to understand fully that this was wrong. 
 

Either you are incredibly forward thinking or he is completely undeserving of your sympathy.