team toughness going into the stretch

[oldnews]

36 minutes ago, theo5789 said:

I think worrying 3 years from now is looking too far ahead (in terms of the value of losing LE now or not) especially when considering there will be a bunch of expiring deals and the cap rising. Backes could be literal dead weight holding us down for the next 2 years for sure. That's a big risk on two years where our cap is in most question.

 

It might be something to explore in the offseason if it's being considered. Making this move now would affect chemistry while still taking on a big risk. Not worth it unless they make it worthwhile.

I'm not 'worrying' - in the least - about 3 years from now.  

I'm just weighing LE's contributions realistically versus the opportunity to move that contract - a window of opportunity that could wind up being the best opportunity.

What could/would that 6 million be spent on two years from now vs what we're getting out of it now.  I think the bar could be higher.

 

I think I could live with one more year of Backes' contract weighing the team down - at 4.925 million I'm not sure that a player like Lind or Bailey or other could not step in next year and give the team an ELC contribution that wouldn't 'set it back' significantly relative to LE - they might lose a bit on the shutdown side (an area the team has a pretty good 'foundation', but gain on the upside - ala the advantage of keeping a Gaudette in the lineup versus a Schaller or whomever).  One thing the team has managed in this window - via young players like EP,  Hughes, Virtanen, Boeser, Gaudette - is a relative wealth of veteran 'foundation' - if 'we' can shed an LE and lean on one more young guy to step in (while the others have gained another year in development/experience/strength, etc) - I'd probably take that opportunity to continue the process/cycle.

 

I'm not looking at it as a 'cap crunch of the future/worry - at all - I don't see this as a comparable situation to teams like Toronto who've tied up 40 million in 4 forwards, and have 3 of their top 4 D expiring.  I think the Canucks have plenty of time to work out their cap over the following seasons, but that does not mean I would not take every opportunity to be calculative about it.  I sure as hell don't move players like Sutter in this window, but a winger like LE, as improved as his play has been, is still a 6 million x 2+ seasons remaining = I'd trade in his performance for a 4.95 dead cap that expires next year and consider it a gain (remembering it could take assets to move him, ie to a team like Ottawa, or in expansion, and if they keep him, what could that cap have been spent on?)

Edited January 31, 2020 by oldnews

[JM_]

1 hour ago, oldnews said:

Virtanen's importance becomes that much more evident imo.

 

The great thing about him at this point - he can be used by Green in a versatile way - so if they kept him on the EP/Miller line, they could still situationally use him to wing it on a Sutter/Roussel shutdown line, when needed - or if they go for greater balance throughout the lineup, perhaps they move Gaudette to wing, no longer need to shelter him or that line, and Boeser could potentially move up to Horvat or Miller/EP's line.... they have the flexibility to deal with another loss imo (but not a rash of them).  Moving LE would probably increase the risk of their performance falling off down the stretch if they took any further key losses to their shutdown group.  Difficult short-term calculation, but I think over the following season and certainly after Backes expired, that would be very tempting future flexibility to buy.

 

I think the key - if they were to move LE - would be the ability to utilizie either a pair of Sutter/Beagle shutdown lines - or, spitballing here - if they're leaving Sutter on the wing, when healthy he's certainly capable of eating more than depth minutes, so they could move him up to Horvat's wing for shutdown circumstances and arguably lose nothing (actually gain imo) relative to LE.

 

I'd love to know what Green et al would truly think of a deal like this.

moving AG to wing makes sense, or at least having him with a partner that can help like Miller does for Petey. I suspect Green would be all over something like that. 

[JM_]

58 minutes ago, aGENT said:

I'm interested to see how he does too (assuming he gets a couple practices in and then hopefully a game or two). Though fair warning, he doesn't play a particularly 'heavy' game'. He has elite speed and a pretty good shot and is half decent defensively but he uses his size more to protect the puck/make space than necessarily lay hits etc. Think more 'David Booth'. 

 

Though it's certainly something that wouldn't hurt to add to his game if he wants to play at this level!

 

Kid has all the tools...now we just need to find out if he's a late bloomer or if he just can't translate them to the NHL.

no, I don't want to think of David Booth. 

 

The description you give sounds like a bit of a larger Motte maybe? If he's got some size and can skate like Motte he might fit in to Greens system. 

[oldnews]

7 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

moving AG to wing makes sense, or at least having him with a partner that can help like Miller does for Petey. I suspect Green would be all over something like that. 

I think their wealth at natural C - (more important) and depth on the wings, particularly being able to move a player like Gaudette there - enables them to manage without an LE, even short term.

Then again, I don't see a fraction of what Green sees, so I understand if they'd reject the idea.

[oldnews]

1 minute ago, Jimmy McGill said:

no, I don't want to think of David Booth. 

 

The description you give sounds like a bit of a larger Motte maybe? If he's got some size and can skate like Motte he might fit in to Greens system. 

I'd prefer to 'compare' him to a player like Okposo - a bigger, faster, far less expensive, and younger, unproven, slower-developing Okposo-like player lol.

[theo5789]

6 minutes ago, oldnews said:

I'm not 'worrying' - in the least - about 3 years from now.  

I'm just weighing LE's contributions realistically versus the opportunity to move that contract - a window of opportunity that could wind up being the best opportunity.

 

I think I could live with one more year of Backes' contract weighing the team down - at 4.925 million I'm not sure that a player like Lind or Bailey or other could not step in next year and give the team an ELC contribution that wouldn't 'set it back' significantly relative to LE - they might lose a bit on the shutdown side (an area the team has a pretty good 'foundation', but gain on the upside - ala the advantage of keeping a Gaudette in the lineup versus a Schaller or whomever).  One thing the team has managed in this window - via young players like EP,  Hughes, Virtanen, Boeser, Gaudette - is a relative wealth of veteran 'foundation' - if 'we' can shed an LE and lean on one more young guy to step in (while the others have gained another year in development/experience/strength, etc) - I'd probably take that opportunity to continue the process/cycle.

Fair assessment. I kind of forgot to subtract a year of their contract remaining after this season and thus thinking both guys had one more year on their deals left. With that said, I still think we explore the idea in the offseason rather than this TDL simply for chemistry sake and to see how this team performs in the playoffs should we make it there. See how far this LE experiment can take us. If LE has indeed found a spot that he can hang onto in our lineup, then I hardly see that being a detriment and just starts boosting his value more. We pretty much cannot avoid 5-6 million for the next season, but we can try to get the most value out of that 5-6 million on our team now as opposed to it being pure dead weight. I just feel by the time we hit that final year of LE, it won't be as big of a burden and we will have several options on how to proceed. Certain a risk-reward consideration involved here.

[JM_]

1 minute ago, oldnews said:

I'd prefer to 'compare' him to a player like Okposo - a bigger, faster, far less expensive, and younger, unproven, slower-developing Okposo-like player lol.

looks like the practice line was Bailey-AG-Boeser for a bit today. He's not going to score like Jake, but I wonder if his size and speed will put back some energy into that line that they lost when Jake got promoted? If that line can get out of our zone just a little more Boeser might get some better chances. 

[oldnews]

Just now, theo5789 said:

Fair assessment. I kind of forgot to subtract a year of their contract remaining after this season and thus thinking both guys had one more year on their deals left. With that said, I still think we explore the idea in the offseason rather than this TDL simply for chemistry sake and to see how this team performs in the playoffs should we make it there. See how far this LE experiment can take us. If LE has indeed found a spot that he can hang onto in our lineup, then I hardly see that being a detriment and just starts boosting his value more. We pretty much cannot avoid 5-6 million for the next season, but we can try to get the most value out of that 5-6 million on our team now as opposed to it being pure dead weight. I just feel by the time we hit that final year of LE, it won't be as big of a burden and we will have several options on how to proceed. Certain a risk-reward consideration involved here.

I'd agree with that (from our viewpoing) , except I'm not sure Boston entertains the idea - at all - in the summer.  I think it's a 'window' deal where you have to give to get.  Not sure they get enough if you're hoping to propose that in the summer.

Krug is a UFA (5.25)

Chara is a UFA (2.0)

DeBrusk is an RFA - (numbers like Virtanen, currently making 863k)

Miller (2.5 already on LTIR) and Halak (2.75) expire / UFAs

 

I'm not sure they even consider a deal like this in the present, let alone the summer, where it becomes an even harder sell imo.

[oldnews]

14 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

looks like the practice line was Bailey-AG-Boeser for a bit today. He's not going to score like Jake, but I wonder if his size and speed will put back some energy into that line that they lost when Jake got promoted? If that line can get out of our zone just a little more Boeser might get some better chances. 

hopefully -  I like Roussel a lot as a LW option for a Sutter line - I think they were quite good together and less onus on Roussel to both shelter and produce, etc - but as a winger for Gaudette, it's a taller order imo / different role - that may be suited to a bigger, quicker guy that can get in harder on the forecheck, be more of a threat to put the puck in the net...?  the line may not be as strong without the puck - but can they be sheltered enough and make it worthwhile inside the other blueline?  I like the Sutter/Roussel and Beagle/Motte foundations to a pair of shutdown lines - and some good complements options - but with Gaudette at center, maybe they can tilt the ice enough with Beagle and Sutter together, and Horvat tilted towards secondary shutdown as opposed to secondary scoring....I'm kinda hoping Bailey gets a look in the lineup - it'll be fun to see (although they're likely to be a lot more conservative than in previous seasons with a race at stake).

Edited January 31, 2020 by oldnews

[aGENT]

24 minutes ago, Jimmy McGill said:

no, I don't want to think of David Booth. 

 

The description you give sounds like a bit of a larger Motte maybe? If he's got some size and can skate like Motte he might fit in to Greens system. 

Motte, while smaller, is far more physical.

[theo5789]

7 minutes ago, oldnews said:

I'd agree with that (from our viewpoing) , except I'm not sure Boston entertains the idea - at all - in the summer.  I think it's a 'window' deal where you have to give to get.  Not sure they get enough if you're hoping to propose that in the summer.

Krug is a UFA (5.25)

Chara is a UFA (2.0)

DeBrusk is an RFA - (numbers like Virtanen, currently making 863k)

Miller (2.5 already on LTIR) and Halak (2.75) expire / UFAs

 

I'm not sure they even consider a deal like this in the present, let alone the summer, where it becomes an even harder sell imo.

And we might have more options in the summer if LE continues his play and maybe even has a decent playoffs. Then they can enjoy that dead weight because no team is taking him on otherwise just like how we can't find a taker for Sven even for free. I guess we will have to see how LE continues to perform up until the TDL.

[Toyotasfan]

There’s rarely fights in the playoffs, but teams will stop at nothing to get an advantage. Every year there is a accidently on purpose injury that turns the tide in a series. Here’s an example of the most recent one.

I was cheering for the Blues in that series but that was a targeted hit. The Bruins best puck moving defenceman rubbed out. How do you respond to it ? It’s more than turning the cheek and trying to beat them on the scoreboard,  team toughness has to go with that.

[189lb enforcers?]

3 hours ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Absolutely. He needs to set the tone more so in that regard. I think during the last SJ game, he was chumming it up with a Shark after a scrum. I'd prefer that he keeps that stuff to after the game, in the hallways type of interaction.

I would enjoy it if Horvat became a Mikko Koivu clone or, if we are lucky, a Brind’amour. An Joel Otto is too much to ask. 

 

Horvat hasn't necessarily disappointed me, but I was hoping he’d lead the charge in physicality, especially to set the tone in the heavy games.

He’s done no such thing. 

 

Unfortunately, JB decided on choosing sub-six footers to be this team’s most physical players in terms of fists and hits. Everyone loves an underdog like Stetch or Motte, but really? Roussel?? That’s it??? 

 

I’m not knocking the effort or the players, just the Canucks version of toughness as a bit of a saga of choosing the smaller version wherever possible, which continues to be an identity of sorts.

 

The top 6 and the top 4 have improved in weight and Meyers is a giant, but are they really that tough to play against? Are they the first ones in a scrum to defend someone or to mix it up and create momentum changes? 

 

Things are better. I am thrilled they are but we went from a deficit to like 50%. 

They could still do with a lot more. And when they do, I hope the toughness and physicality isn’t another 5’11 version of it all.

 

Meanwhile, I’m fine as a beggar not being a chooser. Things are so much better for my viewing experience that I’m not about to rip on Benning for any shortcoming after he did a great job of at least trying to build an identity not like that of the one in my Napoleon Dynamite gif thing. 

 

I’ve been hoping for Lowry and Edmundson for so long that they don’t even fit this roster that well anymore if they were to come. 

 

Our battle with Alberta for a playoff position will be interesting. 

Edited January 31, 2020 by 189lb enforcers?

[PhillipBlunt]

45 minutes ago, Toyotasfan said:

There’s rarely fights in the playoffs, but teams will stop at nothing to get an advantage. Every year there is a accidently on purpose injury that turns the tide in a series. Here’s an example of the most recent one.

I was cheering for the Blues in that series but that was a targeted hit. The Bruins best puck moving defenceman rubbed out. How do you respond to it ? It’s more than turning the cheek and trying to beat them on the scoreboard,  team toughness has to go with that.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Sunkist, himself, the victim of a dirty hit by Tom Wilson earlier on that season?

[PhillipBlunt]

6 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

I would enjoy it if Horvat became a Mikko Koivu clone or, if we are lucky, a Brind’amour. An Joel Otto is too much to ask. 

 

Horvat hasn't necessarily disappointed me, but I was hoping he’d lead the charge in physicality, especially to set the tone in the heavy games.

He’s done no such thing. 

Same. Hopefully Bo takes less and less queues from the Sedins, the longer he's a captain. Certainly, they were special players from a skill perspective, and their IQ for the game was off the charts, but the lack of pushback that permeated the rosters they lead was palatable.

6 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Unfortunately, JB decided on choosing sub-six footers to be this team’s most physical players in terms of fists and hits. Everyone loves an underdog like Stetch or Motte, but really? Roussel?? That’s it??? 

He tried with Gudbranson, who when he was on and paired with Edler, was a nightmare for the opposition. I remember him and Edler neutralizing the Panzerknacker - Bergeron - Sharthand line in Vancouver, where both Eagle and Guddy took turns rubbing out Sharthand. It was awesome. Sadly, pairing Guddy with anyone else was an adventure and not one that was very fun. 
 

6 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

I’m not knocking the effort or the players, just the Canucks version of toughness as a bit of a saga of choosing the smaller version wherever possible, which continues to be an identity of sorts.

Never thought you were. I like the way the team plays, and having gifted players like Pettersson and Hughes is a treat to watch. I do want to see the Canucks look to find that right mix of size and the willingness to use it. A nasty disposition and dedication to protection of teammates is great too.

6 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

The top 6 and the top 4 have improved in weight and Meyers is a giant, but are they really that tough to play against? Are they the first ones in a scrum to defend someone or to mix it up and create momentum changes? 

They do lay a heavy forecheck for sure, which works, but aren't really jumping into scrums with the pack mentality like some other teams do. Myers has shown the ability to lay a huge hit, but it's the consistency of use that I hope he improves upon.

6 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Things are better. I am thrilled they are but we went from a deficit to like 50%. 

They could still do with a lot more. And when they do, I hope the toughness and physicality isn’t another 5’11 version of it all.

Same. I'm hoping a certain Russian player (6'8" 265) comes back bent on making an impression and making the top 4.

6 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Meanwhile, I’m fine as a beggar not being a chooser. Things are so much better for my viewing experience that I’m not about to rip on Benning for any shortcoming after he did a great job of at least trying to build an identity not like that of the one in my Napoleon Dynamite gif thing. 

He has done a great job. I think he was hoping that Ferland was going to knock it out of the park. There's still time in the season for him to do so.

6 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

I’ve been hoping for Lowry and Edmundson for so long that they don’t even fit this roster that well anymore if they were to come. 

I could see them working. Same with Dillon. Just have to work it the right way...……

 

6 minutes ago, 189lb enforcers? said:

Our battle with Alberta for a playoff position will be interesting. 

For sure. if Ferland is up to it, he's a decent buffer to deal with Kassian and Lucic.

[Toyotasfan]

17 minutes ago, PhillipBlunt said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Sunkist, himself, the victim of a dirty hit by Tom Wilson earlier on that season?

Last pre-season game that year, Wilson got him blindside . 

[Toyotasfan]

I have a tough time looking to Ferland as a light at the end of the tunnel. I wish we could rewind to the player he was, but he’s not that big to begin with and indestructibility fades with age. He may come back and only last a handful of games . May he prove me wrong.

[J-23]

What happened to your all CAPS posts, smh. Those were the best ones.

[J-23]

Still spittin facts as usual tho.

[189lb enforcers?]

I want Firkland to live a long, healthy life. 

 

I don't want to see Firkland doing the things that could ruin his life by getting another concussion. He can’t be the guy doing the heavy lifting here when he comes back, so “toughness” will have to come from elsewhere. 

 

IMO, sadly, he should not be fighting at all. It’s too dangerous and a risk to his life beyond the game. I’m guessing at his health, of course, but somethings are far more important than hockey, my fan-ego and our entertainment. 

 

Look after yourself, daddy. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by 189lb enforcers?