kanucks25 Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 14 minutes ago, shiznak said: Not sure what you’re looking for as a 3C. He’s pretty durable, kills penalties, win faceoffs, block shots, and has knack of getting those greasy goals. The only downside is he’s pushing the wrong side of 35. He's a career 20-25 point player, don't think that cuts it for a championship 3C in 2020. Also coming off a 15 point season @ 35 (albeit Arizona isn't exactly a high scoring team). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostsOf1994 Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 No thank you, his effort level is nowhere near what it needs to be for a borderline checking C Any move involving adding turris and removing Beagle or Sutter is a lateral move. Besides that, Petey Miller,Horvat, Gaudette, Sutter,Beagle, Macewan and Motte are more then capable of bringing what Turris does. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RowdyCanuck Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 11 minutes ago, GhostsOf1994 said: No thank you, his effort level is nowhere near what it needs to be for a borderline checking C Any move involving adding turris and removing Beagle or Sutter is a lateral move. Besides that, Petey Miller,Horvat, Gaudette, Sutter,Beagle, Macewan and Motte are more then capable of bringing what Turris does. But isn't turris more of a play maker? And besides petey , a lot of our centers are shooters not set up guys. We have scorers like hoglander and VP in the pipeline but look at JV or rooster ...where a play maker for a discount and a good b.c boy to boot for a one year deal.would be an upgrade....not a lot of people will be running out and offering millions or a big contract, so why not move sutter and sign turris as a safety net for Guad and if you run rooster Guad and turris , that line checks all the boxes for a balanced third line..... lateral move? How so? If you can sign turris for a million or 1.5 one year deal and move sutter ...it would be a win for Van , frees up cap space and we didn't have to down grade to bad.....if he doesn't work out then Guad has a chance and he only costed us money...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternalCanuckFan Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 Santini would be a decent depth RHD. Good size and right shot. Would probably clear waivers if Chatfield beats him out as a 7/8D and would probably benefit Utica (assuming they play). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostsOf1994 Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 (edited) Lateral move as turris may provide more playmaking in the bottom 6 but he is nowhere near the defensive side as Sutter or Beagle. Also think that Hoglander may slot in on the 3 line alongside Gaudette/Sutter/Rooster/Motte/Mac with beagle C the 4th. Miller Pettersson Boeser Pearson Horvat JV? Mac? Rooster Gaudette Hoglander? Motte Beagle Sutter Also think Gaudette was stymied offensively as his wingers weren't exactly highly offensive (see kesler back in the day) Turris doesn't play a heavy game either, i used to really like KT but over the years it's declined over his play. I really think he should switch to wing. Sidenote, i used to play ball hockey with kyle, really nice when i knew him a little bit as kids. Both of us from the same hometown, same schools, same coaches and some mutual friends to this day. I was a big turris fan @RowdyCanuck Edited October 7, 2020 by GhostsOf1994 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostsOf1994 Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 (edited) Messed up Edited October 7, 2020 by GhostsOf1994 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 1 hour ago, kanucks25 said: He's a career 20-25 point player, don't think that cuts it for a championship 3C in 2020. Also coming off a 15 point season @ 35 (albeit Arizona isn't exactly a high scoring team). judging a shutdown center by points totals is reductive and doesn't really look at what you are seeking in that role. you might want to look at his dzone starts (the kind of minutes he plays - and how effective he is, defensively - easily as, or more important, thatn expecting a certain amount of production in that role = goal metrics (both ways), on ice sv %, faceoff percentage, underlying numbers = in context. He has been excellent - and in addition, had a 19 goal season one year ago - while playing hard, almost exclusively shutdown minutes. On a team with a young, talented top 6 - that you want to both provide opportunity for - he is a good fit imo - and further - if you add him to a line with Sutter you have a high end shutdown line with a pair of natural centers - with Beagle and Motte additionally able to deal with high dzone starts....that was the kind of circumstances in which the EP and Horvat lines were dominant against St Louis...otherwise, what we saw in the Vegas series - was the lack of an effective, defensive 3rd line (with Gaudette centering it) - and to make matters more challenging, EP was forced into center duty by Miller's injury. I would not be concerned about 'only' 25 or 30 pts from a player like Richardson - that is excellent in the context of his role imo, and for his cap hit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanucks25 Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 23 minutes ago, oldnews said: judging a shutdown center by points totals is reductive and doesn't really look at what you are seeking in that role. you might want to look at his dzone starts (the kind of minutes he plays - and how effective he is, defensively - easily as, or more important, thatn expecting a certain amount of production in that role = goal metrics (both ways), on ice sv %, faceoff percentage, underlying numbers = in context. He has been excellent - and in addition, had a 19 goal season one year ago - while playing hard, almost exclusively shutdown minutes. On a team with a young, talented top 6 - that you want to both provide opportunity for - he is a good fit imo - and further - if you add him to a line with Sutter you have a high end shutdown line with a pair of natural centers - with Beagle and Motte additionally able to deal with high dzone starts....that was the kind of circumstances in which the EP and Horvat lines were dominant against St Louis...otherwise, what we saw in the Vegas series - was the lack of an effective, defensive 3rd line (with Gaudette centering it) - and to make matters more challenging, EP was forced into center duty by Miller's injury. I would not be concerned about 'only' 25 or 30 pts from a player like Richardson - that is excellent in the context of his role imo, and for his cap hit. We can agree to disagree. IMO a top-end 3rd line center puts up more points while playing that role. And if he really was that valuable we shouldn't have let him go for free Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 1 minute ago, kanucks25 said: We can agree to disagree. IMO a top-end 3rd line center puts up more points while playing that role. And if he really was that valuable we shouldn't have let him go for free ? A top end 3C is going to cost you multiples more than 1.25 - and not necessarily bring you more in the end, all things considered = production is not 'all'. Perhaps we should have re-signed him - if he wanted to return - yes - however, when UFAs sign elsewhere the idea that you let them go for free is curious. Anyhow - with the cap tightness this team faces and his unreal performance to cap hit, he's an excellent, if not the best option in free agency (perhaps Thompson is a second option). You're not getting the kind of 3C you're hoping for at that price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanucks25 Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 15 minutes ago, oldnews said: ? A top end 3C is going to cost you multiples more than 1.25 - and not necessarily bring you more in the end, all things considered = production is not 'all'. Perhaps we should have re-signed him - if he wanted to return - yes - however, when UFAs sign elsewhere the idea that you let them go for free is curious. Anyhow - with the cap tightness this team faces and his unreal performance to cap hit, he's an excellent, if not the best option in free agency (perhaps Thompson is a second option). You're not getting the kind of 3C you're hoping for at that price. You're right in that he brings great valve for his cap-hit, but I never mentioned cap-hit. At this point I'm operating under the assumption that we'll be able to shed cap, even if we have to pay assets to do it. Having to pay to shed cap coming out of a rebuild before we've even done anything winning wise is sort of ridiculous but that's a topic for another thread. If they decide they don't want to do that and would rather go bargain hunting, then sure Richardson would be a fine target. Do players like Richardson move the needle over what we already have? I don't really think so. Will be interesting to see if Benning thinks he has the leash to wait out some of his cap restraints instead of paying to get rid of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldnews Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 43 minutes ago, kanucks25 said: You're right in that he brings great valve for his cap-hit, but I never mentioned cap-hit. At this point I'm operating under the assumption that we'll be able to shed cap, even if we have to pay assets to do it. Having to pay to shed cap coming out of a rebuild before we've even done anything winning wise is sort of ridiculous but that's a topic for another thread. If they decide they don't want to do that and would rather go bargain hunting, then sure Richardson would be a fine target. Do players like Richardson move the needle over what we already have? I don't really think so. Will be interesting to see if Benning thinks he has the leash to wait out some of his cap restraints instead of paying to get rid of them. You're operating under an assumption, then - as virtually no teams have managed to move cap thus far in deals.... And regardless, I highly doubt the Canucks would be doing so with the goal of adding a high scoring 3C - simply not a priority - and further, for the reasons already stated a lower cost defensive center alternative makes far more sense for this team. You can speculate about 'needle' changing, but you haven't really assessed the player aside from expecting more production, so I'm not sure you're recognizing the different ways a player can 'move the needle'. Part of that needle translation has to be looking at the conditions the top 6 and your young defensemen compete in - if they are opportune in the balance, then it can't be separated from the rest of the team - and the bottom six forward group - no one performs in a vacuum. As for the sideways comment about cap and rebuild - the team just went to the final 8, it ran into injury problems at center (another reason to add a depth C like Richardson as opposed to dump one) - and the cap situation is inflated by two things you cannot blame Benning for - Luongo recrap and Covid - otherwise the team would be in quite a healthy position with a complete gimme on one of their expiring UFAs - and then approach the offseason with financially healthier teams to deal with (dumping cap to cash strapped teams becomes more difficult with the exception of LE type contracts where it also has to be assumed that the receiving team reaches the cap floor.. the imperative to move cap would be relatively secondary to what it is in these circumstances.- and would also be in better leverage position to terminate LE's contract (which as it stands might be headed that way regardless).... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanucks25 Posted October 7, 2020 Share Posted October 7, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, oldnews said: You're operating under an assumption, then - as virtually no teams have managed to move cap thus far in deals.... Didn't Nashville just do it today? Plus all the buyouts around the league... 1 hour ago, oldnews said: And regardless, I highly doubt the Canucks would be doing so with the goal of adding a high scoring 3C - simply not a priority Other than D it kind of is. It's an important position/role and it doesn't seem as though Green trusts Gaudette there and neither Gaudette nor Sutter have shown they can be consistently great at that role. 1 hour ago, oldnews said: You can speculate about 'needle' changing, but you haven't really assessed the player aside from expecting more production, so I'm not sure you're recognizing the different ways a player can 'move the needle'. Part of that needle translation has to be looking at the conditions the top 6 and your young defensemen compete in - if they are opportune in the balance, then it can't be separated from the rest of the team - and the bottom six forward group - no one performs in a vacuum. Yes context is important but sometimes you don't need to overcomplicate things. Brad Richardson has not consistently been a 3rd liner in his career. A few of his best seasons could be considered 3rd line worthy but I don't know if there are many around the league (management or fans) that think "if Brad Richardson is on your third line, you're in a great position". I rather have any player that has put up 40~ points consistently and is known to be reliable defensively in that spot, because they have a history of excelling at that role regardless of circumstances. Whether or not a player like that is available or we're willing to pay the price, that's up for debate. 1 hour ago, oldnews said: As for the sideways comment about cap and rebuild - the team just went to the final 8, it ran into injury problems at center (another reason to add a depth C like Richardson as opposed to dump one) - and the cap situation is inflated by two things you cannot blame Benning for - Luongo recrap and Covid - otherwise the team would be in quite a healthy position with a complete gimme on one of their expiring UFAs - and then approach the offseason with financially healthier teams to deal with (dumping cap to cash strapped teams becomes more difficult with the exception of LE type contracts where it also has to be assumed that the receiving team reaches the cap floor.. the imperative to move cap would be relatively secondary to what it is in these circumstances.- and would also be in better leverage position to terminate LE's contract (which as it stands might be headed that way regardless).... We can agree to disagree. What you think are reasons I think are excuses. Other than the Luongo thing, it's on Benning. Every other GM is operating under Covid so again, it's not an excuse. Risk assessment and planning for unforseen events is part of good management. It's like having a savings account, you keep some money tucked away for a rainy day. You don't spend everything willy-nilly thinking that nothing bad is around the corner (unless you're in a legit position to go all in, which we have never been in under Benning). A few less Erikssons or Gagners and you have some padding for things out of your control like the Luongos and Baerstchis. Edited October 7, 2020 by kanucks25 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RowdyCanuck Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 5 hours ago, GhostsOf1994 said: Lateral move as turris may provide more playmaking in the bottom 6 but he is nowhere near the defensive side as Sutter or Beagle. Also think that Hoglander may slot in on the 3 line alongside Gaudette/Sutter/Rooster/Motte/Mac with beagle C the 4th. Miller Pettersson Boeser Pearson Horvat JV? Mac? Rooster Gaudette Hoglander? Motte Beagle Sutter Also think Gaudette was stymied offensively as his wingers weren't exactly highly offensive (see kesler back in the day) Turris doesn't play a heavy game either, i used to really like KT but over the years it's declined over his play. I really think he should switch to wing. Sidenote, i used to play ball hockey with kyle, really nice when i knew him a little bit as kids. Both of us from the same hometown, same schools, same coaches and some mutual friends to this day. I was a big turris fan @RowdyCanuck I agree but look at our wingers though.... none are known for their play making ... also I could live with turris softer play cause he still scores greasy goals .... also we save money and can add toughness in other areas and hoglander and Jake and the list goes on of scoring wingers that need a play maker... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ilya Mikheyev Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 Get Ryan and Turris on Shattenkirk and Bogosian contracts Bobby Ryan - Kyle Turris - Jake Virtanen Tyler Motte - Jay Beagle - Brandon Sutter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nave Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 Having traded Bonino and buying out Turris, I wonder what Nashville is doing... They must have something planned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TNucks1 Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 lets get getzlaf on 3rd C lol jking, wish we had him when he was younger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st33 Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 Big no on Turris, there's many better options out there. Heard he's a dick to his mom too who still lives locally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hectic Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 13 hours ago, aGENT said: Don't see him as our 3c long term. Likely winger conversion (which we're loaded with). If we can use him to plug holes elsewhere... I agree with this projection of Gaudette Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teepain Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 12 hours ago, GhostsOf1994 said: No thank you, his effort level is nowhere near what it needs to be for a borderline checking C Any move involving adding turris and removing Beagle or Sutter is a lateral move. Besides that, Petey Miller,Horvat, Gaudette, Sutter,Beagle, Macewan and Motte are more then capable of bringing what Turris does. You would be foolish if you didnt. Its def a upgrade to gaudette , if he can move to the wing for cheap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GhostsOf1994 Posted October 8, 2020 Share Posted October 8, 2020 Just now, teepain said: You would be foolish if you didnt. Its def a upgrade to gaudette , if he can move to the wing for cheap 30pts for 6m as a play making Center on a stacked Nashville team says otherwise. Who does turris replace in the lineup? No one in the top 6, hell i would have JV there before turris. Petey, Boeser, Miller, Pearson, Horvat, Virtanen, Gaudette With Motte,Roussel,Beagle,Sutter, Macewan possibly Leivo in the mix and prospects coming in. Give Baertschi a go, he's still signed if you want more offense from the 3rd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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