[Proposal/Discussion] Should we trade JT Miller? CBJ-VAN/MTL-VAN

[Junkyard Dog]

13 minutes ago, KirkSave said:

I think what Petey and Hughes sign for in terms of cap hit and term will play a big factor in whether we re-sign Miller or trade him. And I agree how the team perfroms next season will steer this ship too.

We’d still have to re-sign Horvat and Boeser.
 

We’d also so close to having to give Pod/Hog/Rathbone new deals. If any of them step up big time then that’s another big raise. 
 

I don’t know if it’s wise to commit to Miller big money long-term which he’ll want being 30(when a UFA). Horvat/Boeser will want to cash out too. It could create cap problems when Pod/Hog/whoever we draft/etc get better. 

[wildcam]

its also about cap. Boeser 6.5 ?summer 2022---Horvat 6.5 ?  and Miller 6.5 ?summer 2023 ---- Petey and Quinn summer 2024...

Next summer we should have cap room Erickson 6 million, Roussel 3, Beagle 3 off books 12 million..

[J.I.A.H.N]

Miller, Schmidt and Juolevi

 

for

 

Cozens and Buffalo's 1st

[mll]

2 hours ago, Junkyard Dog said:

JB said we are 2 years away from competing and Miller’s contract is up by the end of that. Personally I don’t think it’s wise to re-sign him which is why I wanted to bring this up as discussion. 
 

He’ll be 30 and will more than likely be getting a contract with a much greater value than Eriksson. With the amount of young talent gonna need extensions within the next few seasons is it wise to keep him?
 

Given how well he’s been playing, how much of a bargain his cap hit is and the fact that he’s signed for 2 more seasons after this one we are gonna get the most for Miller next year. If we wait another year when he’ll be an upcoming UFA we’ll get less. 
 

Some stuff to think about this off-season. 

But it’s a similar reasoning for CBJ.  Can they even compete over the next 2 seasons.

 

Jones is a UFA in a year and non committal.   They could well be heading into a rebuild/ retool.

 

Also Miller is a UFA in 2 years.  What are the chance they can even retain him.  With the state of the team and how much trouble they have to retain top players just don’t see why it would benefit them to make that trade.  If they are willing to give up 2 x 1st feels more likely that they would target Eichel ( they’ll have to add) but his age also fits their group better.  

[Junkyard Dog]

Just now, mll said:

But it’s a similar reasoning for CBJ.  Can they even compete over the next 2 seasons.

 

Jones is a UFA in a year and non committal.   They could well be heading into a rebuild/ retool.

 

Also Miller is a UFA in 2 years.  What are the chance they can even retain him.  With the state of the team and how much trouble they have to retain top players just don’t see why it would benefit them to make that trade.  If they are willing to give up 2 x 1st feels more likely that they would target Eichel ( they’ll have to add) but his age also fits their group better.  

That’s why I said in the OP idk what CBJ’s game plan moving forward. 
 

Yeah they could go after Eichel. Will cost them more though and he isn’t exactly on a  cap friendly deal. 

[Junkyard Dog]

43 minutes ago, wildcam said:

its also about cap. Boeser 6.5 ?summer 2022---Horvat 6.5 ?  and Miller 6.5 ?summer 2023 ---- Petey and Quinn summer 2024...

Next summer we should have cap room Erickson 6 million, Roussel 3, Beagle 3 off books 12 million..

Boeser’s qualifying offer is 7.5M. 
 

Miller is probably gonna command more than that in FA. He’s on par with Petey and you could argue he’s the better overall player. 
 

Then you’ll have Pod/Hog shortly after that. If Hoglander continues to progress well he’s gonna get good raise.  

[mll]

2 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

Boeser’s qualifying offer is 7.5M. 
 

Miller is probably gonna command more than that in FA. He’s on par with Petey and you could argue he’s the better overall player. 
 

Then you’ll have Pod/Hog shortly after that. If Hoglander continues to progress well he’s gonna get good raise.  

 

Qualifying offers are only valid for acceptance over about a 2 week window (- 28 July to 6 August this shortened off-season).  Have a hard time seeing Boeser sign that offer and expect him to let the deadline pass and negotiate a contract instead.  They could also try and get a contract done earlier like they did with Demko, he’s eligible to sign an extension as of this summer. 

Trade Miller for futures and not sure how guys like Horvat but also Pettersson, Hughes would react. Miller talked of how the team felt they had something going last playoffs and now have to start over - likely wasn’t the only one that felt that way.   Horvat made it clear he doesn’t want to go through a rebuild.  He too is UFA in 2 years.

 

 

[Junkyard Dog]

17 minutes ago, mll said:

 

Qualifying offers are only valid for acceptance over about a 2 week window (- 28 July to 6 August this shortened off-season).  Have a hard time seeing Boeser sign that offer and expect him to let the deadline pass and negotiate a contract instead.  They could also try and get a contract done earlier like they did with Demko, he’s eligible to sign an extension as of this summer. 

Trade Miller for futures and not sure how guys like Horvat but also Pettersson, Hughes would react. Miller talked of how the team felt they had something going last playoffs and now have to start over - likely wasn’t the only one that felt that way.   Horvat made it clear he doesn’t want to go through a rebuild.  He too is UFA in 2 years.

 

 

JB did state that he sees 2 years till we are ready to compete. We are likely to see more younger players on that cusp get opportunities.
 

These kids are probably not gonna have as much of an impact as Petey/Boeser/Hughes/etc have had. Probably have some ups and downs. Not to mention this upcoming draft and potentially next draft where we could have another top 10 pick. Potentially more players coming off ELCs down the line. 

 

 

Do you know something I don’t that would suggest Boeser signing less than his 7.5M qualifying offer?

 

 

Probably not in this team’s best interest to commit long-term on a 30 year old veteran when we will have other young players coming off ELCs in need of raises and have our captain to sign. When Miller hits UFA it will be his last shot at cashing out. Like Marky he will get paid. The way I see it is we either trade him at some point or he walks. 

Edited May 13, 2021 by Junkyard Dog

[qwijibo]

I guess for Montreal it depends on what happens with Danault and Tatar.  That’s a lot to give up for a guy who would likely walk in 2 years.  His 72 point season seems to be a bit of an outlier so I’m not sure GM’s would be willing to pay a huge premium for him. 

[mll]

16 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

JB did state that he sees 2 years till we are ready to compete. We are likely to see more younger players on that cusp get opportunities.
 

These kids are probably not gonna have as much of an impact as Petey/Boeser/Hughes/etc have had. Probably have some ups and downs. Not to mention this upcoming draft and potentially next draft where we could have another top 10 pick. Potentially more players coming off ELCs down the line. 

 

 

Do you know something I don’t that would suggest Boeser signing less than his 7.5M qualifying offer?

 

 

Probably not in this team’s best interest to commit long-term on a 30 year old veteran when we will have other young players coming off ELCs in need of raises and have our captain to sign. When Miller hits UFA it will be his last shot at cashing out. Like Marky he will get paid. The way I see it is we either trade him at some point or he walks. 

 

Boeser is part of this young core and would expect him to want to stay.  Unless they had contentious discussions before the qualifying offer acceptance window, I just don’t see why he would sign it.  Then it’s contract negotiations but the Canucks hold his rights.

 

I understand why you want to trade Miller but it could have consequences on the core players’ trust and long term commitment to Vancouver. 

 

Players want to win. If they move him now they are signaling that they are giving up on the coming season and that might not be well perceived.  Don’t think it’s a message Benning wants to give.  He preferred signing Pearson now then wait after expansion and save a protection spot.

 

There’s also removing a productive player for picks who could take years to make that kind of impact.  Pettersson/Hughes will likely be signing bridge deals.  If those picks need more time to establish themselves they might not have the patience to wait so close to free agency where they and Horvat will have options to join more competitive teams.  

[Coconuts]

I'd rather not, but it depends on what other teams are prepared to give up. I wouldn't be trying to sell him, but a GM isn't doing his job if he doesn't take calls on guys. 

[Junkyard Dog]

58 minutes ago, mll said:

 

Boeser is part of this young core and would expect him to want to stay.  Unless they had contentious discussions before the qualifying offer acceptance window, I just don’t see why he would sign it.  Then it’s contract negotiations but the Canucks hold his rights.

 

I understand why you want to trade Miller but it could have consequences on the core players’ trust and long term commitment to Vancouver. 

 

Players want to win. If they move him now they are signaling that they are giving up on the coming season and that might not be well perceived.  Don’t think it’s a message Benning wants to give.  He preferred signing Pearson now then wait after expansion and save a protection spot.

 

There’s also removing a productive player for picks who could take years to make that kind of impact.  Pettersson/Hughes will likely be signing bridge deals.  If those picks need more time to establish themselves they might not have the patience to wait so close to free agency where they and Horvat will have options to join more competitive teams.  

I think a lot of Boeser's next contract is very much up in the air. Given how he held out as an RFA who had no rights and missed most of training camp back in 2019 I am not sure he'd be willing to take less than what he feels is warranted. But like I said a lot of it is up in the air. I feel like how he does next year will play a significant part.

 

In the end players will understand, hockey is a business. They understood that when Toffoli/Tanev/Marky were let go and they'd understand that when/if we traded Miller. Players want to win but at some point GMs have to consider things they wouldn't normally do, especially if a team underperforms and/or has a bad year. We could very well be in for another down year. As you've stated some guys take longer and we will be giving a bunch of those sort of young players opportunities next year. They're likely gonna have ups and downs. Not sure we will have much cap but that's up in the air too.

 

However I get that I am kind of rushing it. I get putting in an amount of faith in your players. I have also suggested in other threads of waiting till the trade deadline next year to trade Miller. This way you have faith in your players and give players a chance. I feel like Miller would be one of the top trade deadline targets too.

 

Given through the 2017-2019 draft we've had players jump in and make an impact in their draft +1 year when we've had picks in the top 40 I am pretty confident in our scouting staffs ability to find talent when they're drafting high. There's obviously no guarantee that players are ready that fast all the time but when you're drafting high, especially with a scouting staff like ours, your chances improve greatly. Personally I see us drafting high next year too.

 

[mll]

49 minutes ago, Junkyard Dog said:

I think a lot of Boeser's next contract is very much up in the air. Given how he held out as an RFA who had no rights and missed most of training camp back in 2019 I am not sure he'd be willing to take less than what he feels is warranted. But like I said a lot of it is up in the air. I feel like how he does next year will play a significant part.

 

In the end players will understand, hockey is a business. They understood that when Toffoli/Tanev/Marky were let go and they'd understand that when/if we traded Miller. Players want to win but at some point GMs have to consider things they wouldn't normally do, especially if a team underperforms and/or has a bad year. We could very well be in for another down year. As you've stated some guys take longer and we will be giving a bunch of those sort of young players opportunities next year. They're likely gonna have ups and downs. Not sure we will have much cap but that's up in the air too.

 

However I get that I am kind of rushing it. I get putting in an amount of faith in your players. I have also suggested in other threads of waiting till the trade deadline next year to trade Miller. This way you have faith in your players and give players a chance. I feel like Miller would be one of the top trade deadline targets too.

 

Given through the 2017-2019 draft we've had players jump in and make an impact in their draft +1 year when we've had picks in the top 40 I am pretty confident in our scouting staffs ability to find talent when they're drafting high. There's obviously no guarantee that players are ready that fast all the time but when you're drafting high, especially with a scouting staff like ours, your chances improve greatly. Personally I see us drafting high next year too.

 

 

Could see Boeser file for arbitration.  It sets a deadline to get a contract done so no dragging into camp.  Either they get a contract done before the hearing or he takes the award.  Canucks can walk away if higher than about 4.4M.  He was not arbitration eligible last time.  

 

I think they’ll wait till the final year of his contract if they can’t agree on an extension.  Benning has kept on bringing in vets to insulate the youth.  He also explained the early Pearson signing by talking of going younger next year and needing his veteran help. Trading Miller would be a change in approach.

 

They got a taste of playoff hockey and felt they were on the right track.  Taking out Miller after Tanev, Toffoli, can’t see that being well perceived by players when they felt they were close.

 

There was limited scouting this year so could be much harder to hit on the picks.

[IBatch]

10 hours ago, fanfor42 said:

Fans should look at the comparison between Colorado and Van.

 

1. Horvat and McKinnon both drafted 2013 1st round, 1st and 9th respectively.

2. Both JB and Sakic came on as their teams GM's in 2014.

3. Similar draft story for each team  if you go through 2014 to 2019. (JB might be a little better actually).

 

The glaring difference is the pieces that Sakic has added outside of the draft, compared to the mediocre pieces JB has added over the past 7 years.  JB held on to the Sedins until they were ready to retire.  No return for them and kept trying to add pieces to make us competitive like, ahem, Eriksson.

 

Very interesting to look at the comparison and realize Colorado is right now 2 points from 1st overall while we are a few points from last overall.

 

However.  In 2016/17 Colorado finished dead last overall and drafted Makar.  That was 4 years ago.  Are we 4 years away from the same trajectory?

 

If so then you trade Miller.  If you think we are closer to competing then you keep Miller.

 

If JB waits to see then real chance Miller leaves on his own as a UFA for nothing if we haven't become competitive by then.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

The big difference is that COL had a core that was becoming UFA soon that Sakic traded in Barrie and Duchene.  Those guys got the Byram and a long term middle C.    Landeskog was the only guy they kept - two completely different scenarios given we were an aging vet team, two years removed from a presidents trophy and COL was a young and exciting team when Sakic took over.   If JB was fired this off season, whoever comes in would he pretty much where Sakic was when he came in.    And then sell Horvat and Miller to build around EP and QHs (like they did with McKinnon - really Horvat could stay but to compare they did trade two star players, not one)....

 

Trading Miller would for sure help the group in a couple years .... and help the team bottom out and collect a few more players too.   I'm on the fence.   See the logic ...  Id actually like to see more of Rathbone .... we don't need two guys that small on the L side.    Trading QHs is also another option that i'm sure nobody really wants to consider. 

[IBatch]

5 hours ago, Junkyard Dog said:

I think a lot of Boeser's next contract is very much up in the air. Given how he held out as an RFA who had no rights and missed most of training camp back in 2019 I am not sure he'd be willing to take less than what he feels is warranted. But like I said a lot of it is up in the air. I feel like how he does next year will play a significant part.

 

In the end players will understand, hockey is a business. They understood that when Toffoli/Tanev/Marky were let go and they'd understand that when/if we traded Miller. Players want to win but at some point GMs have to consider things they wouldn't normally do, especially if a team underperforms and/or has a bad year. We could very well be in for another down year. As you've stated some guys take longer and we will be giving a bunch of those sort of young players opportunities next year. They're likely gonna have ups and downs. Not sure we will have much cap but that's up in the air too.

 

However I get that I am kind of rushing it. I get putting in an amount of faith in your players. I have also suggested in other threads of waiting till the trade deadline next year to trade Miller. This way you have faith in your players and give players a chance. I feel like Miller would be one of the top trade deadline targets too.

 

Given through the 2017-2019 draft we've had players jump in and make an impact in their draft +1 year when we've had picks in the top 40 I am pretty confident in our scouting staffs ability to find talent when they're drafting high. There's obviously no guarantee that players are ready that fast all the time but when you're drafting high, especially with a scouting staff like ours, your chances improve greatly. Personally I see us drafting high next year too.

 

Well said.   Yes if there is a trade available at the draft of this off-season for any player that makes sense, then do it.   Also like the idea of keeping Miller, give the players a chance to make the playoffs in their own division and take offers on Miller at the TDL if we aren't in it.     You get more then... Tatar got a first, second and third i think from Vegas lol - and wasn't played.   Miller for sure will fetch more then we paid for .... 

Edited May 13, 2021 by IBatch

[Junkyard Dog]

11 hours ago, mll said:

 

Could see Boeser file for arbitration.  It sets a deadline to get a contract done so no dragging into camp.  Either they get a contract done before the hearing or he takes the award.  Canucks can walk away if higher than about 4.4M.  He was not arbitration eligible last time.  

 

I think they’ll wait till the final year of his contract if they can’t agree on an extension.  Benning has kept on bringing in vets to insulate the youth.  He also explained the early Pearson signing by talking of going younger next year and needing his veteran help. Trading Miller would be a change in approach.

 

They got a taste of playoff hockey and felt they were on the right track.  Taking out Miller after Tanev, Toffoli, can’t see that being well perceived by players when they felt they were close.

 

There was limited scouting this year so could be much harder to hit on the picks.

Could see a lot of things potentially with the Boeser contract. 
 

As I said, could do it later. Like waiting till next TDL. That way you put a certain amount of faith in players to get it done before the deadline. 
 

Despite having a taste of playoff hockey should they not be good enough to make the playoffs next year we are gonna need a change of approach either way. 

I would much rather not potentially lose Miller in FA and get something for him when his value is good. Given the fact it’ll be his last shot to cash in at 30 years of age I doubt it would be wise given the amount of youth gonna need re-signing. 

You always could still vets to insulate youngsters in FA. Players we wouldn’t have to commit too much money and term too and that’s would make more sense for that current make up of the team.