[DEBATE] Who is the greatest FIGHTER in Vancouver Canucks history?

[IBatch]

9 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

I didn't see the video.  No Laurie Boschman or Jim Kyte?  Cronin the Cro Magnon Man?

They only mentioned Kyte ... and Domi... but i did think they were trying to think of what they referred to as "monsters"...they had loads of guys like Khris King, who would be around the same level as Momesso is/was for us.   Also they weren't including guys who didn't play many games ... so  Kordic lost to Nilan in MTL - as well as Domi in TO.   And Laraque was only brought up in EDM, debating over him, McSorely, Semenko and Machellan..(can't remember how to spell him).    Was a fun video, trip down memory lane.      Had some hilarious parts - one about Berube chasing Friesen around the ice after everyone was in the box (several line fights), after he was out of the box again.    Didn't mention Sandy McArthy in CAL either ...  or Grimson, but probably because they weren't there long, and weren't as good (although still very good) as they were later.    As an aside - i remember Brashear being a regular highlight reel in MTL even though he didn't fight much (he himself admits he was hesitant because he didn't want to get beat his first year) - one fight, he literally punched his opponent so fast and so hard over an over again, right into his bench.    

 

His coming out year, second season in Vancouver first full one, ive never seen any player ever, fight that many guys, not lose any and basically have his way with the entire field.    A lot weren't top fighters, but he earned his reputation that season, and kept it throughout his career.   Probert and McSorely couldn't handle him, but also feel they both weren't quite as good as they used to be by then as well.  Wonder how he'd have faired against them ten years younger, or Semenko, Dave Brown, Behn from the 80's.   Probert wrote in his book that both him and Laraque bugged him because they just kept getting bigger and stronger, and that they wouldn't open up - just little "butterfly kisses" to the back of the head/helmet lol.   It bothered him obviously, losing his heavyweight title that is.    So get your "huggy bear" sentiment too.   Thing is, he won a ton of fights opening up too, to lesser skilled guys, he was smart with the larger men.    Didn't always beat them either.   Remember Belak another monster...and this one guy who was as big as Boogard - Brashear was winning handedly, got some really hard punches in, then Macyntire i think his name was - all 6'7" 265lbs of him, hit Brashear with a solid body shot (think the only punch he'd landed, and a good 25 seconds into it) and his knees dropped looked like he was going to puke.    Also has wins over Boogard who is probably the scariest fighter ever.   Brashear had to fight a totally new breed of actual goons that came into the league.    Didn't seem to get passionate about his job and think that rubbed fans the wrong way maybe (well sometimes he did - after Petit punched Walker with his hands behind him for example), but he followed the code and did his job well.   

 

Smyl, Gino and Tiger - they knew how to engage the fans at a different level.   Glad the younger fans got to see some of that with Rypien too..

Edited September 16, 2021 by IBatch

[IBatch]

Craig Coxe fought 33 times for us, and you'd be hard pressed to find a higher level of competition on his card.   Probert x 2, both highest ranked fights ever on hockeyfights.com,  Dave Brown who's KO power was top tier (just as Grimson and his broken face),  Kordic - a mad man, Crowder who made mince meat of the the league early on, and Kocur who's said to be the hardest puncher all-time.    The Wolfman did most his damage in the eastern conference, but also deserves some props.   

 

Even Antoski...guy was a monster.   Wasn't here long but i really don't remember him losing a fight, at least not badly, and he pummelled some guys, absolutely destroyed them.    Thought with Gino and aging warrior Hunter, the "Fear Line" was aptly named. 

[Baratheon]

7 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

What are you saying about MMA exactly?  GSP wasn't known for hugging standing up, he was known for taking guys down and hugging them on the ground.  This quite often results in the fighters being stood up and separated, though it didn't happen often with GSP.  And he didn't really become a hugger / blanket until after the Serra fight.

 

Guys get stood up and separated when the referee decides that there is not enough happening on the ground.  For the most part however they are actively fighting while on the ground (ground strikes, submissions, positional battle etc.) and not just looking to be separated as you might see in boxing.  

 

Brashear was also generally fighting while he was "hugging".  He'd hold guys in tight where there wasn't much space to punch then just find space to let go of some shots before pulling his opponent back in.  It might not have been fun to watch but that has nothing to do with it's effectiveness.

 

Edit: Very cool video of Steamer!  I'm not sure the point your making with it (if there is one) but it is awesome nonetheless!

Edited September 16, 2021 by Baratheon

[Dynamic Innovator]

16 hours ago, Patel Bure said:

I feel like this question could actually be broken down into three separate polls/questions?

 

1) Who was the toughest fighter in Canucks history? (Brashear)

 

2) Who was the greatest enforcer in Canucks history (Gino Odjick)

 

3) Who was the best pound-for-pound fighter in Canucks’ history?  (Rick Rypien)

This is 100% correct

[Dynamic Innovator]

2 hours ago, IBatch said:

Even Antoski...guy was a monster.   Wasn't here long but i really don't remember him losing a fight, at least not badly, and he pummelled some guys, absolutely destroyed them.    Thought with Gino and aging warrior Hunter, the "Fear Line" was aptly named. 

 

[iceman64]

On 9/15/2021 at 2:08 AM, Elias Pettersson said:

Who is the greatest FIGHTER in Vancouver Canucks history?

 

Ooooh, I like this one.  Lots of these guys have never made a poll before, until now...  

 

Who you got?  Who is the greatest one of them all?

 

Remember you can only pick one.  Have fun and enjoy...  

I'll take Bure and his killer elbows, Shane Churla would agree... !)

[Patel Bure]

I mentioned this earlier but I wonder where Erik Gudbranson would rank? (or should rank).  I know his play was quite lackluster here, but this guy knew how to answer the bell......and usually annihilated his opponents.
 

Derek Dorsett wasn’t the toughest guy in the world by any means but he always answered the bell.  Never backed down from anyone.  A little like Odjick in this regard. 

Edited September 16, 2021 by Patel Bure

[IBatch]

On 9/15/2021 at 9:48 AM, Dynamic Innovator said:

Awesome topic!!!  

 

Here's my list:

1. Brashear - not particularly likeable but was the best fighter in a Canucks uniform

2. Rypien - best pure fighting skills but not a heavyweight

3. Fraser - didn't start them often but almost always finished them, superb puncher

4. Odjick - best enforcer in Canucks history, hands down, not debatable

5. Kurtenbach - not on the list but was an unbelievable fighter

 

Honourable mentions go to:

Glenn Cochrane - big, mean and nasty...but let off the gas a bit with the Canucks

Craig Coxe - Coxe vs Probert x2 is enough said

Tim Hunter - sneaky and entertaining

Scott Walker - YouTube Walker vs. Keane.  Had many superb battles

Darren Langdon - terrific fighter who sadly played only ~45 games for the Canucks

 

 

 

This is a great post.   Pretty much sums it up.    Went and watched some Brashear fights just to jog the memory ... lol well he made mince meat out of middleweights like Neil, Greg DeVries, Odjers etc - those guys just couldn't handle him - neither could the bigger guys that came in later whom he beat on a regular basis too (guys much bigger then he was).   Pound per pound he was the best heavy we had and one of the best fighters all-time.    Anyone his size or a little smaller was also mostly a punching bag.   Brashear was still pounding away late in the 2000's ...and even with the winds changing, and basically done, rarely lost a fight, and against uber sized guys quite a bit larger then him, which is kind of ridiculous. 

[IBatch]

7 minutes ago, Patel Bure said:

I mentioned this earlier but I wonder where Erik Gudbranson would rank? (or should rank).  I know his play was quite lackluster here, but this guy knew how to answer the bell......and usually annihilated his opponents.
 

Derek Dorsey wasn’t the toughest guy in the world by any means but he always answered the bell.  Never backed down from anyone.  A little like Odjick in this regard. 

Gudbranson sample size and quality of competition is embarrassing.    There are guys not even listed that could be before him.   Four or five fights?    So maybe in the 30's. 

 

Edit:  Langdon, Ciccone, Neely  ... a few of the top of my head.  Even Stajonov 

Edited September 16, 2021 by IBatch

[Tiger-Hearted]

[Kevin Biestra]

17 hours ago, Baratheon said:

Guys get stood up and separated when the referee decides that there is not enough happening on the ground.  For the most part however they are actively fighting while on the ground (ground strikes, submissions, positional battle etc.) and not just looking to be separated as you might see in boxing.  

 

Brashear was also generally fighting while he was "hugging".  He'd hold guys in tight where there wasn't much space to punch then just find space to let go of some shots before pulling his opponent back in.  It might not have been fun to watch but that has nothing to do with it's effectiveness.

 

Edit: Very cool video of Steamer!  I'm not sure the point your making with it (if there is one) but it is awesome nonetheless!

 

I'm not quite sure what your point of disagreement was with me about boxing or MMA, and I'm still trying to clarify or figure it out, or forget about it which is fine too.

 

I can barely remember at this point what I was trying to say but I guess it was that hugging is basically a way of signalling to the referee that you don't want to continue the fight in hockey (come on get in here refs) and it's often mutual with both fighters. You can hug to "avoid a fight" in boxing or MMA, or it can be used as part of a strategy like dirty boxing against the wall...but more often than not it's not part of a very active offensive strategy.  It's usually resting or neutralizing the other guy's offense or part of a slow moving low risk attempt to get a better position which may be active and interesting, or maybe not.  You don't really see much standing and prolonged hugging between MMA fighters if it isn't against the fence, and the only time I can really think of it is when both fighters are exhausted like hockey players and just want it to end (something like Kimbo Slice vs. Dada 5000).

 

The Smyl clip was just for fun.  You don't see a lot of judo in hockey so you have to appreciate it when it happens.

[Goal:thecup]

22 hours ago, IBatch said:

You bet.   Didn't have to fight anyways, just could grab anyone he wanted in a scrum and hold them still, even guys like Probert.    

Back when Babych was still playing, he mentioned in an interview that all of his brothers were tougher than him and he was more or less the runt.

I met Dave and one of his brothers at Carlo's and Bud's and while shorter, his brother was twice as wide; it must have taken the whole frickin cow to make the black leather coat he was wearing.

As usual, they were great guys, respectful and having fun with about 20 or so other Nux.

[Kevin Biestra]

10 minutes ago, Goal:thecup said:

Back when Babych was still playing, he mentioned in an interview that all of his brothers were tougher than him and he was more or less the runt.

I met Dave and one of his brothers at Carlo's and Bud's and while shorter, his brother was twice as wide; it must have taken the whole frickin cow to make the black leather coat he was wearing.

As usual, they were great guys, respectful and having fun with about 20 or so other Nux.

 

Wayne Babych was a stud.  He was looking like he was en route to the Hall of Fame just like Tim Kerr and Barry Pederson before he got taken out by injuries early on.  Calder finalist in his rookie year, 54 goals in his third season on a team where he wasn't benefiting from a Gretzky, Hawerchuk, Savard or Stastny dishing out the puck.  It was Babych, Federko and Brian Sutter driving the offense.  Then he got injured the next season and he was never the same.

[IBatch]

3 hours ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

I'm not quite sure what your point of disagreement was with me about boxing or MMA, and I'm still trying to clarify or figure it out, or forget about it which is fine too.

 

I can barely remember at this point what I was trying to say but I guess it was that hugging is basically a way of signalling to the referee that you don't want to continue the fight in hockey (come on get in here refs) and it's often mutual with both fighters. You can hug to "avoid a fight" in boxing or MMA, or it can be used as part of a strategy like dirty boxing against the wall...but more often than not it's not part of a very active offensive strategy.  It's usually resting or neutralizing the other guy's offense or part of a slow moving low risk attempt to get a better position which may be active and interesting, or maybe not.  You don't really see much standing and prolonged hugging between MMA fighters if it isn't against the fence, and the only time I can really think of it is when both fighters are exhausted like hockey players and just want it to end (something like Kimbo Slice vs. Dada 5000).

 

The Smyl clip was just for fun.  You don't see a lot of judo in hockey so you have to appreciate it when it happens.

The clinch is actually exhausting.   It's a lot easier to throw punches energy wise. This thread took me back and watched a lot of warriors do their thing and pretty much all of the heavy's, used the clinch or "hugging" to gain position.   McSorely did it all the time.   Waited for his opening, if he got one went to town, if he didn't, settled for the draw.    Laraque did, Boogard did, Bogard did, Shelly did, McGratton and Probert not as much but still did a little.   Berube and Jovo didn't know what that was lol - all offense little defense.  Rockem Sockem robot fights was something different.   Some fighters were just too good at something not to use it.   Brashear tricked Shelly their first fight by going with his rights instead to start it.    These guys studied each other too.   And yes that throw was awesome!

[Kevin Biestra]

Just now, IBatch said:

The clinch is actually exhausting.   It's a lot easier to throw punches energy wise. This thread took me back and watched a lot of warriors do their thing and pretty much all of the heavy's, used the clinch or "hugging" to gain position.   McSorely did it all the time.   Waited for his opening, if he got one went to town, if he didn't, settled for the draw.    Laraque did, Boogard did, Bogard did, Shelly did, McGratton and Probert not as much but still did a little.   Berube and Jovo didn't know what that was lol - all offense little defense.  Rockem Sockem robot fights was something different.   Some fighters were just too good at something not to use it.   Brashear tricked Shelly their first fight by going with his rights instead to start it.    These guys studied each other too.   And yes that throw was awesome!

 

Mickey's strategy for Rocky 2.

[Goal:thecup]

2 minutes ago, IBatch said:

The clinch is actually exhausting.   It's a lot easier to throw punches energy wise. This thread took me back and watched a lot of warriors do their thing and pretty much all of the heavy's, used the clinch or "hugging" to gain position.   McSorely did it all the time.   Waited for his opening, if he got one went to town, if he didn't, settled for the draw.    Laraque did, Boogard did, Bogard did, Shelly did, McGratton and Probert not as much but still did a little.   Berube and Jovo didn't know what that was lol - all offense little defense.  Rockem Sockem robot fights was something different.   Some fighters were just too good at something not to use it.   Brashear tricked Shelly their first fight by going with his rights instead to start it.    These guys studied each other too.   And yes that throw was awesome!

Jovo was a riot!

The whole croud was on their feet when he got going.

Now, that's entertainment folks.

[IBatch]

38 minutes ago, Kevin Biestra said:

 

Mickey's strategy for Rocky 2.

I thought that was punching right handed instead or orthodox...and just getting your ass kicked until the other guy tired out.   

[IBatch]

42 minutes ago, Goal:thecup said:

Jovo was a riot!

The whole croud was on their feet when he got going.

Now, that's entertainment folks.

Yes he was a throwback, before throwbacks became anything.   The last five years i've never watched tamer hockey.   As soon as a player gets one punch in the refs break it up.   Get it.   We don't won't our players to get hurt.   That said it used to be the wild wild west out there.   Enforcers still have a role in hockey and sure we still have youth around that wants to do that sort of thing.   But it's also been purposely bred out in a way from the lower levels.   Can't simply fight your way into the league anymore. 

[Kevin Biestra]

1 hour ago, IBatch said:

The clinch is actually exhausting.   It's a lot easier to throw punches energy wise. This thread took me back and watched a lot of warriors do their thing and pretty much all of the heavy's, used the clinch or "hugging" to gain position.   McSorely did it all the time.   Waited for his opening, if he got one went to town, if he didn't, settled for the draw.    Laraque did, Boogard did, Bogard did, Shelly did, McGratton and Probert not as much but still did a little.   Berube and Jovo didn't know what that was lol - all offense little defense.  Rockem Sockem robot fights was something different.   Some fighters were just too good at something not to use it.   Brashear tricked Shelly their first fight by going with his rights instead to start it.    These guys studied each other too.   And yes that throw was awesome!

 

I can't find it but one of the best fights I ever saw was Kirk Muller, since he came up in the Linden HOF thread.  He was ducking under punches and then countering, like Balboa near the end of the second Clubber Lang fight.

Edited September 17, 2021 by Kevin Biestra

[Goal:thecup]

15 minutes ago, IBatch said:

Yes he was a throwback, before throwbacks became anything.   The last five years i've never watched tamer hockey.   As soon as a player gets one punch in the refs break it up.   Get it.   We don't won't our players to get hurt.   That said it used to be the wild wild west out there.   Enforcers still have a role in hockey and sure we still have youth around that wants to do that sort of thing.   But it's also been purposely bred out in a way from the lower levels.   Can't simply fight your way into the league anymore. 

Yeah, it took a long time for me to come around.

I was in denial about the bad side of fighting in hockey and willfully forgetting the angst and sickening feelings that accompanied the entertaining violence.

 

The problem we have now is that the old 'policemen' of the league are no longer on patrol and keeping order is fobbed off on incompetent referees, a goofy rulebook, and a corrupt department of player safety et al.

(Incompetent in that they cannot see everything that the fans and both teams can see; plus of course the proven bias of some refs - as Alex Burrows so bravely pointed out.)

 

So borderline-NHL players get to run smaller stars without having to answer the bell.

Instead of overt, let's settle this now, we've got cheap shots galore, and players getting injured that should be playing, and lesser talents running around like Calgary fans rioting in Vancouver, and bringing the total entertainment value of the game down to a scumbag level.

 

I don't want a return to the past mondo violence.

I do enjoy these trips down memory lane, where the pain, and real, permanent damage are conveniently forgotten.

 

It has taken me a very long time to get to this point where the hockey is more important to me than settling scores and physical dominance.

imo the league and the players association need to work on this all the time, and keep refining it until we get it right.

 

Watching Tuch and Reeves and Stone line up Quinn, 2 at a time, and just come flying into the corner on him, with little to no effective means to respond, is beyond frustrating.

Maybe there is something to the idea that we have all dismissed many times of the punishment taking into account the damage inflicted; I don't know, but probably they should call more Intent To Injure penalties, majors, and off-ice punishments that make players aware that they could lose their careers for intentionally trying to injure other players.

 

I know, intent is difficult to prove; but this is not a courtroom drama and the players and the officials have agreed to abide by the NHL rules so it should be possible to link up the intent with the results to produce a punishment that puts a stop to the problem.

 

Perhaps this one change, where intent is not even proven, but where your punishment can be as severe or more so, than the harm caused, may eventually make players think about their right to play the game if they are going to hit to injure.

 

Good hitting should always be part of the game and is quite obviously different from the Goon Shows of the past.

And maybe the little wrist slashes that take a player out for a few games will stop when the perps have to sit out for at least as long as their victims.

 

And it would not slow the game down to review the replays when someone is injured right there at the time.

The play is going to be stopped anyway, so if the refs didn't see it, there should be no reason the video shouldn't be reviewed to see who is to blame for the injuries.