Wanless Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 14 minutes ago, *Buzzsaw* said: Bullsh*t. Covid does not resemble the flu. There are thousands of people dying every day in N America due to it... lethality is far more than the flu. Even those who are double vacinated are getting infected, and a lot of them end up in hospital. Those who are not vaccinated end up in hospital at 10 times the rate. Its a question of numbers and the fact the health care system gets overwhelmed. If you let it run rampant, then the health care system gets swamped and those so-called 'mild' Covid cases which can normally be solved with hospital stays/oxygen/antiviral drugs suddenly are no longer mild because there is no room/no oxygen/no drugs in the hospitals and people start dying in hallways from the 'mild' cases. That is what happened in India when their health care system got overwhelmed. By realistic estimates India lost nearly 4 million people to Covid during their last surge. And this doesn't even count the number of ordinary patients who need surgery for car accidents/strokes/heart attacks/etc. who would be compromised if the wards are swamped with Covid cases. Do some basic research and stop peddling cr*p. I read today that 1.4 people per 100,000 people with double vaccine end up in the ICU at the moment. Incredibly encouraging currently, testing is not an accurate representation of how many people have it as health officials are just telling people who have reason to believe they have it through tracing to just stay home. this is likely the end wave of the pandemic and its believed that it could turn endemic by march 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris12345 Posted January 8, 2022 Share Posted January 8, 2022 Anyone watching hockey central? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanucksJay Posted January 9, 2022 Share Posted January 9, 2022 32 minutes ago, aznmonk said: Kane a reclamation project if San Jose buys his contract out? Maybe 1m per season. Then trade boeser. Save 7 million.! Fool me once shame on you fool me twice.... How many teams has Kane fooled? JR ain't no fool lol 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Buzzsaw* Posted January 9, 2022 Share Posted January 9, 2022 34 minutes ago, Wanless said: I read today that 1.4 people per 100,000 people with double vaccine end up in the ICU at the moment. Incredibly encouraging currently, testing is not an accurate representation of how many people have it as health officials are just telling people who have reason to believe they have it through tracing to just stay home. this is likely the end wave of the pandemic and its believed that it could turn endemic by march It is correct that very few people who have double vaccines end up in ICU... but there are also the much larger number who have the 'mild' hospitalization cases, who require oxygen/antiviral to avoid their illness becoming more severe... you can't just tell those people to stay home... if you do, then their cases get worse, they get lung infections and pneumonia, etc. There is also the issue of 'Long Covid'... we all know what happened to Sutter... who was in his thirties, a performance athlete with great lung function/cardio. Even those who recover from their hospital stay can get these long term symptoms which basically can destroy a person's career and life. Yes, it is true that we may see the end of the pandemic and an evolution to an 'endemic' situation with these new more infectious but 'weaker' variants... but that does not mean we can blow off precautions or basic care. Talk to those who have other serious illnesses and who are having to postpone their surgeries or treatments once again because of all the BOZOS who didn't get their vaccines and who are clogging up the ICU's and ward beds. 50% of those in ICU are unvaccinated. Personally I am getting to the point where I think we should give serious consideration to telling the unvaccinated when they refuse to get a shot they are also refusing the option to hospital care, or getting a lower tier of care if they get sick with Covid. 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canucklehead53 Posted January 9, 2022 Share Posted January 9, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, *Buzzsaw* said: Bullsh*t. Covid does not resemble the flu. There are thousands of people dying every day in N America due to it... lethality is far more than the flu. Even those who are double vacinated are getting infected, and a lot of them end up in hospital. Those who are not vaccinated end up in hospital at 10 times the rate. Its a question of numbers and the fact the health care system gets overwhelmed. If you let it run rampant, then the health care system gets swamped and those so-called 'mild' Covid cases which can normally be solved with hospital stays/oxygen/antiviral drugs suddenly are no longer mild because there is no room/no oxygen/no drugs in the hospitals and people start dying in hallways from the 'mild' cases. That is what happened in India when their health care system got overwhelmed. By realistic estimates India lost nearly 4 million people to Covid during their last surge. And this doesn't even count the number of ordinary patients who need surgery for car accidents/strokes/heart attacks/etc. who would be compromised if the wards are swamped with Covid cases. Do some basic research and stop peddling cr*p. Roughly between 7,000 and 8,500 people die of influenza a year in Canada. Whereas covid has killed 30,000 in Canada since it started and many people have spoken out about questionable causes of death records for covid. With a population of about 38,000,000 that is 0.08% of the population over 2 years. Covid started in 2019 so in 2 years it killed about twice as many people in Canada as the flu. Omnicron has a crazy high transmission compared to the prior variants but ICU rates are low (relatively speaking) and don't seem to be following the same curve as infection rates. A lot of people are saying it is time to consider what measures are necessary and justified. I am not an expert so am not saying I have the answer but I do think critical thought on everyone's part is a good idea. Be unbiased and listen to everything while looking at the data and numbers yourself. You can't accurately quantify the impacts of the measures to things like mental health, economy, society, etc. Healthy conversation is good but being positional in arguments is not effective communication. Edited January 9, 2022 by Canucklehead53 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wanless Posted January 9, 2022 Share Posted January 9, 2022 1 hour ago, *Buzzsaw* said: It is correct that very few people who have double vaccines end up in ICU... but there are also the much larger number who have the 'mild' hospitalization cases, who require oxygen/antiviral to avoid their illness becoming more severe... you can't just tell those people to stay home... if you do, then their cases get worse, they get lung infections and pneumonia, etc. There is also the issue of 'Long Covid'... we all know what happened to Sutter... who was in his thirties, a performance athlete with great lung function/cardio. Even those who recover from their hospital stay can get these long term symptoms which basically can destroy a person's career and life. Yes, it is true that we may see the end of the pandemic and an evolution to an 'endemic' situation with these new more infectious but 'weaker' variants... but that does not mean we can blow off precautions or basic care. Talk to those who have other serious illnesses and who are having to postpone their surgeries or treatments once again because of all the BOZOS who didn't get their vaccines and who are clogging up the ICU's and ward beds. 50% of those in ICU are unvaccinated. Personally I am getting to the point where I think we should give serious consideration to telling the unvaccinated when they refuse to get a shot they are also refusing the option to hospital care, or getting a lower tier of care if they get sick with Covid. I agree with that the stats show the vaccine is working as advertised no vaccine, someone needs your bed who is vaccinated or has another non covid related illness then they have to go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
*Buzzsaw* Posted January 9, 2022 Share Posted January 9, 2022 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Canucklehead53 said: Roughly between 7,000 and 8,500 people die of influenza a year in Canada. Whereas covid has killed 30,000 in Canada since it started and many people have spoken out about questionable causes of death records for covid. With a population of about 38,000,000 that is 0.08% of the population over 2 years. Covid started in 2019 so in 2 years it killed about twice as many people in Canada as the flu. Omnicron has a crazy high transmission compared to the prior variants but ICU rates are low (relatively speaking) and don't seem to be following the same curve as infection rates. A lot of people are saying it is time to consider what measures are necessary and justified. I am not an expert so am not saying I have the answer but I do think critical thought on everyone's part is a good idea. Be unbiased and listen to everything while looking at the data and numbers yourself. You can't accurately quantify the impacts of the measures to things like mental health, economy, society, etc. Healthy conversation is good but being positional in arguments is not effective communication. Covid has killed the number of people it has.... DESPITE THE LOCKDOWNS AND PRECAUTIONS. During the time of the lockdowns the number of people dying from the flu has decreased to nearly zero. If we pulled off the lockdowns and precautions and treated Covid like the flu, studies show the number of deaths would be 10 times what they are now. And as I mentioned, you can't just count the number of dead from Covid... you need to consider what the effect is on the health care system and the other people who are having their operations and treatment cancelled or postponed. Plus the number of people who would be suffering from 'Long Covid'. Take a look at the death rates in the Provinces like Alberta where the Premier has caved to the anti-lockdown proponents and slightly lessened the restrictions. BC has had approx. 2400 deaths, Alberta with a lower pop. than BC has had approx. 3300 deaths. Edited January 9, 2022 by *Buzzsaw* 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aznmonk Posted January 9, 2022 Share Posted January 9, 2022 2 hours ago, Wanless said: I read today that 1.4 people per 100,000 people with double vaccine end up in the ICU at the moment. Incredibly encouraging currently, testing is not an accurate representation of how many people have it as health officials are just telling people who have reason to believe they have it through tracing to just stay home. this is likely the end wave of the pandemic and its believed that it could turn endemic by march Didn't they just found a new varient in France... this is just the norm now, way of mother nature controlling over population. It's a virus not a bacteria. So it will mutat to something else! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanleyCupOneDay Posted January 9, 2022 Share Posted January 9, 2022 50 minutes ago, Canucklehead53 said: Roughly between 7,000 and 8,500 people die of influenza a year in Canada. Whereas covid has killed 30,000 in Canada since it started and many people have spoken out about questionable causes of death records for covid. With a population of about 38,000,000 that is 0.08% of the population over 2 years. Covid started in 2019 so in 2 years it killed about twice as many people in Canada as the flu. Omnicron has a crazy high transmission compared to the prior variants but ICU rates are low (relatively speaking) and don't seem to be following the same curve as infection rates. A lot of people are saying it is time to consider what measures are necessary and justified. I am not an expert so am not saying I have the answer but I do think critical thought on everyone's part is a good idea. Be unbiased and listen to everything while looking at the data and numbers yourself. You can't accurately quantify the impacts of the measures to things like mental health, economy, society, etc. Healthy conversation is good but being positional in arguments is not effective communication. The reason we’ve only lost (all people who died from it is tragic and sad, I’m just making a point, not undermining their deaths) .08% of our fellow citizens is because of these measures we’ve taken to protect each other. I definitely agree mental health issues are created and exacerbated by this pandemic and that it needs to be a much bigger part of the Covid conversation. That said until we absolutely know for sure that omicron marks the endemic less deadly/severe transition we are all hoping for (everyone on all sides of the debates going on regardless want this to happen) I don’t think it’s smart to question or go against the very precautions that have saved tens of thousands of lives and all those families and friends who are then spared the agony of grieving. I actually found something kind of surprising just now when I wanted to learn more about the suicide impact during covid. According to the B.C. government from April 2019 to Feb 2020 there were 610 deaths in our province. From April 2020 to Feb 2021 there were 534 deaths, a decrease of 12%. https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/birth-adoption-death-marriage-and-divorce/deaths/coroners-service/statistical/suicide_knowledge_update.pdf Now of course there’s caveats, like it’s only 1 year of data, but if I think about it, it kind of makes some sense. I mean, when we all first heard of COVID-19 what was the very first thing we did? We called or texted our friends and family to warn them to take precautions. We checked in on new friends and old, people/family we haven’t seen in years or maybe even decades. It may not have been in person, but when someone feels connected and that they have support from others be it friends or family they are far less likely to take their life. Or maybe the data is wrong or maybe the argument is overall mental health impact, not just suicide. But if this is true and turns out to be the case from April 2021 to Feb 2022 to have the same or less numbers of suicide then I don’t think people can say the impacts of mental health from restrictions outweigh the impacts of Covid. Either way everything we’re doing is trying to save lives, so I think that should be the measuring stick on what’s better or worse. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canucklehead53 Posted January 9, 2022 Share Posted January 9, 2022 23 minutes ago, *Buzzsaw* said: Covid has killed the number of people it has.... DESPITE THE LOCKDOWNS AND PRECAUTIONS. During the time of the lockdowns the number of people dying from the flu has decreased to nearly zero. If we pulled off the lockdowns and precautions and treated Covid like the flu, studies show the number of deaths would be 10 times what they are now. And as I mentioned, you can't just count the number of dead from Covid... you need to consider what the effect is on the health care system and the other people who are having their operations and treatment cancelled or postponed. Plus the number of people who would be suffering from 'Long Covid'. Take a look at the death rates in the Provinces like Alberta where the Premier has caved to the anti-lockdown proponents and slightly lessened the restrictions. BC has had approx. 2400 deaths, Alberta with a lower pop. than BC has had approx. 3300 deaths. The problem is, models are not accurate. Also out of my own curiousity, do you have the models (plural) that suggest we would have seen 10x more deaths had we not done lock downs. What about if we didn't allow vaccinated individuals to live a more free life when they could still get it and transmit it? I am tired of people presenting their arguments with misrepresented stats and simply unsupported claims (on both sides). Thus why I said everyone needs to be critical thinkers and review the data and stats and ask tough questions versus simply accepting Government position or accepting the anti position. Prior to covid, I was vocally of the mindset that our loss of critical thought is going to be the detriment of our society and this is just the beginning. Not to say covid measures mean our society is going to crumble, simply saying there are a lot of people who are not fact checking for themselves. In my opinion, fear mongering is saying that covid has killed thousands everyday in North America and thus is not similar to the flu without mentioning that the flu kills thousands everyday in the US alone. How many people per day on average have died from covid in North America verses historical data for the flu? This is the sort of data we should be using instead of anecdotal in my opinion. Now in my past post I have said this is worse than the flu and so instead my point is based on stats and asking if people feel the end justifies the means (which is more personal rather than factual and different for everyone) and when considering this you shouldn't only look at the covid numbers. It's impossible to know the true impact with and without mandates (or different mandates) thus it is meant to be thought provoking and not positional. regardless of your position I would hope everyone looks at statements such as those from our prime minister suggesting that anyone not vaxinated is a racist and hates women and then ask if we should tolerate the unvaxxinated as cause for concern (I am not fluent in French so am trusted translators). Tolerance and well informed, open minded communication is what I would like to see instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canucklehead53 Posted January 9, 2022 Share Posted January 9, 2022 3 minutes ago, StanleyCupOneDay said: The reason we’ve only lost (all people who died from it is tragic and sad, I’m just making a point, not undermining their deaths) .08% of our fellow citizens is because of these measures we’ve taken to protect each other. I definitely agree mental health issues are created and exacerbated by this pandemic and that it needs to be a much bigger part of the Covid conversation. That said until we absolutely know for sure that omicron marks the endemic less deadly/severe transition we are all hoping for (everyone on all sides of the debates going on regardless want this to happen) I don’t think it’s smart to question or go against the very precautions that have saved tens of thousands of lives and all those families and friends who are then spared the agony of grieving. I actually found something kind of surprising just now when I wanted to learn more about the suicide impact during covid. According to the B.C. government from April 2019 to Feb 2020 there were 610 deaths in our province. From April 2020 to Feb 2021 there were 534 deaths, a decrease of 12%. https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/birth-adoption-death-marriage-and-divorce/deaths/coroners-service/statistical/suicide_knowledge_update.pdf Now of course there’s caveats, like it’s only 1 year of data, but if I think about it, it kind of makes some sense. I mean, when we all first heard of COVID-19 what was the very first thing we did? We called or texted our friends and family to warn them to take precautions. We checked in on new friends and old, people/family we haven’t seen in years or maybe even decades. It may not have been in person, but when someone feels connected and that they have support from others be it friends or family they are far less likely to take their life. Or maybe the data is wrong or maybe the argument is overall mental health impact, not just suicide. But if this is true and turns out to be the case from April 2021 to Feb 2022 to have the same or less numbers of suicide then I don’t think people can say the impacts of mental health from restrictions outweigh the impacts of Covid. Either way everything we’re doing is trying to save lives, so I think that should be the measuring stick on what’s better or worse. This is the sort of comment that I truly appreciate. I agree that mental health is more than suicide numbers (speaking from personal experience) but it is extremely thought provoking. I still don't trust models myself (for how many we have saved from our measures) but that is based on models from my profession and not health care. I do believe the death rate would have been higher especially at the beginning based on examples such as Italy, however, I still want people on both sides to try and be open minded and consider if the end justifies the means which is not black and white and can be a mix of yes and no...which I will not claim to have an answer to. For me personally there is a mix of yes and no when considering each measure and its total impact...when considering the time and situation when it was implemented. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanleyCupOneDay Posted January 9, 2022 Share Posted January 9, 2022 6 minutes ago, Canucklehead53 said: The problem is, models are not accurate. Also out of my own curiousity, do you have the models (plural) that suggest we would have seen 10x more deaths had we not done lock downs. What about if we didn't allow vaccinated individuals to live a more free life when they could still get it and transmit it? I am tired of people presenting their arguments with misrepresented stats and simply unsupported claims (on both sides). Thus why I said everyone needs to be critical thinkers and review the data and stats and ask tough questions versus simply accepting Government position or accepting the anti position. Prior to covid, I was vocally of the mindset that our loss of critical thought is going to be the detriment of our society and this is just the beginning. Not to say covid measures mean our society is going to crumble, simply saying there are a lot of people who are not fact checking for themselves. In my opinion, fear mongering is saying that covid has killed thousands everyday in North America and thus is not similar to the flu without mentioning that the flu kills thousands everyday in the US alone. How many people per day on average have died from covid in North America verses historical data for the flu? This is the sort of data we should be using instead of anecdotal in my opinion. Now in my past post I have said this is worse than the flu and so instead my point is based on stats and asking if people feel the end justifies the means (which is more personal rather than factual and different for everyone) and when considering this you shouldn't only look at the covid numbers. It's impossible to know the true impact with and without mandates (or different mandates) thus it is meant to be thought provoking and not positional. regardless of your position I would hope everyone looks at statements such as those from our prime minister suggesting that anyone not vaxinated is a racist and hates women and then ask if we should tolerate the unvaxxinated as cause for concern (I am not fluent in French so am trusted translators). Tolerance and well informed, open minded communication is what I would like to see instead. I don’t think it’s a stretch to say Covid would have taken 10x the lives if we did nothing (in fact I’d argue even higher then that). I have no data to share on that front, but with how interconnected our world is today compared to when the last pandemic took 50 million lives now with planes, trains, buses, offices, concerts, sports and all other forms of inter connectivity not invented at that time it probably would have spread like wildfire, especially at the beginning. I also don’t think it’s fair to compare the US to Canada or even our province in respect to COVID. If we really want to understand the impact here, we should use the data from here. On that front I do have something to share. During 10 months of COVID, more British Columbians died then in the last decade of flu deaths according to stats Canada. https://bc.ctvnews.ca/mobile/b-c-has-recorded-more-deaths-from-covid-19-than-10-years-of-the-flu-1.5255084 I think you’re right that it’s impossible to know the impacts of the pandemic, some I’m sure yet to be discovered. Overall though given the data I see I definitely come down on the side of restrictions and precautions being good, necessary and successful. They have impacts on business, the economy and livelihoods and it’s far tougher for a lot more people during this pandemic, but I don’t view anything as more important than saving lives. We’re all suffering in our own ways, but if that means more grandmas, grandpas, moms, dads, brothers, sisters, nieces, nephews, cousins, aunts and uncles get the chance to live the rest of their lives however they see fit, then imo it’s worth it in the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cromeslab Posted January 9, 2022 Share Posted January 9, 2022 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cromeslab Posted January 9, 2022 Share Posted January 9, 2022 Just now, Cromeslab said: Where’s this thread goin,time to Delete? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aznmonk Posted January 9, 2022 Share Posted January 9, 2022 With all those missed games, they should not play them. Use a coin and flip to see who is the winner of those games are and determine the playoff standings! A best out of 7 coin flip match. Should be televised too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanleyCupOneDay Posted January 9, 2022 Share Posted January 9, 2022 21 minutes ago, Canucklehead53 said: This is the sort of comment that I truly appreciate. I agree that mental health is more than suicide numbers (speaking from personal experience) but it is extremely thought provoking. I still don't trust models myself (for how many we have saved from our measures) but that is based on models from my profession and not health care. I do believe the death rate would have been higher especially at the beginning based on examples such as Italy, however, I still want people on both sides to try and be open minded and consider if the end justifies the means which is not black and white and can be a mix of yes and no...which I will not claim to have an answer to. For me personally there is a mix of yes and no when considering each measure and its total impact...when considering the time and situation when it was implemented. Cheers I too know mental health impacts from this pandemic. I’m sorry that you’re suffering too. I think we’ve all had stress in our minds at times. It’s not a comfortable time to be alive., there are many new challenges to overcome that we’ve never faced before. I haven’t seen a friend in 2 years now. My mom and dad maybe every 3 months for a limited time period. It’s tough on the mind, but all the pain and loneliness just means that I’m alive to feel that and I want to make sure that other people get the chance to do so too. One day this will all be over, don’t know when, don’t know why, don’t know how, but at the end looking back during our time of struggle I don’t want to look back and wish “I could have done more”. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cromeslab Posted January 9, 2022 Share Posted January 9, 2022 5 minutes ago, aznmonk said: With all those missed games, they should not play them. Use a coin and flip to see who is the winner of those games are and determine the playoff standings! A best out of 7 coin flip match. Should be televised too Keeps gettin better folks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flat land fish Posted January 9, 2022 Share Posted January 9, 2022 3 hours ago, *Buzzsaw* said: Bullsh*t. Covid does not resemble the flu. There are thousands of people dying every day in N America due to it... lethality is far more than the flu. Even those who are double vacinated are getting infected, and a lot of them end up in hospital. Those who are not vaccinated end up in hospital at 10 times the rate. Its a question of numbers and the fact the health care system gets overwhelmed. If you let it run rampant, then the health care system gets swamped and those so-called 'mild' Covid cases which can normally be solved with hospital stays/oxygen/antiviral drugs suddenly are no longer mild because there is no room/no oxygen/no drugs in the hospitals and people start dying in hallways from the 'mild' cases. That is what happened in India when their health care system got overwhelmed. By realistic estimates India lost nearly 4 million people to Covid during their last surge. And this doesn't even count the number of ordinary patients who need surgery for car accidents/strokes/heart attacks/etc. who would be compromised if the wards are swamped with Covid cases. Do some basic research and stop peddling cr*p. Not to be cold but how many of covid deaths are Among people who aren’t in the bottom of the 9th in their life cycle? Grim reaper comes for all of us just a matter of how. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coconuts Posted January 9, 2022 Share Posted January 9, 2022 6 minutes ago, aznmonk said: With all those missed games, they should not play them. Use a coin and flip to see who is the winner of those games are and determine the playoff standings! A best out of 7 coin flip match. Should be televised too I'd trust that about as much as I trust the draft lottery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StanleyCupOneDay Posted January 9, 2022 Share Posted January 9, 2022 Anyways sorry everyone, went off topic, thought I was in Covid thread. New topic. Can the Canucks be in a playoff position by the start of February? I say yes, nothing feels impossible for our team under Boudreau. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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