(Discussion) Bruce Calls it out! Our Decade long Issue.

[danjr]

I could care less.  With Naslund, we had a mind blowing team with the WCE.  Henrik brought us one game away from the promised land, plus two presidents trophies and scoring champions (he and danny).  Maybe Bo will take us to the final dance.  If he gets us to the final, it's job well done.

You don't have to chop the heads off all your enemies to be a great leader.
Gretzky didn't have to say a word, and everyone fell in line.

[coolboarder]

On 2/21/2022 at 11:35 AM, joe-max said:

The main reason I hate losing is because CDC is unbearable after a loss.

 

Well, can't blame them if their own players doesn't perform from the puck drop and only for them to catch up too many times when they started skating from 2nd period and it's 20 minutes too late.   That is the reason why they kind of fed up at some point.  I would too if they didn't perform and I have seen that same thing too many times.  All they wanted is for them to skate from the start of a hockey game. If they lose, it will not because of they are bad, they didn't put in a good effort from the first period that put them behind 8-ball. 

[Mackcanuck]

 

[RU SERIOUS]

On 2/21/2022 at 10:42 AM, SilentSam said:

First it was Torts, and now Bruce calling it out.

 

 

Ahhh yes,  the quiet “woe is me” leadership we’ve had in this city.

 Remember.. “we choked” ? 

That from Naslund transferred to inaction from Hank when his brother took the cross check from Keith,.  And how they both did nothing but look like punching bags for Marshand.

Ambassadors are not leaders in the field of war,.  They are simply diplomats, which is what Horvat has become.

 

The only raw emotions I see are from Miller, Garland,

OEL, Myers, Burroughs, Hamonic, Lamikko,

Motte, Highmore and a few others .

Smyls jersey hangs high for his emotions turned into blood and sweat.

 

At least EP is learning something from their ethic..  and not simply sailing past a hit the way Horvat and Boeser do.

 

it’s not one game that brings me to this conclusion it’s a consistent theme,  with the odd “isn’t he a beauty game”.  The Ghost Complex.

 

Horvat.. 8 years in the NHL and Captain of the Canucks wow!

My how we have degraded from the years I witnessed Stan Smyl, Gino, Diduyck, Babych, Snepts , Delorme, Mommesso and others that brought it all every night.

Leadership,.  The Captaincy, is shameful.. and the biggest joke in the league was making Luongo a Captain. .  Talk about departure when you never cross a blue line other than to swap a crease.   
Others can stay “woe is me” and defend it, and their favourites.

I’m one of many now calling it out, times up, and it’s time management changes it.

so be careful, don’t get lulled to death watching an 8 year vet in Horvat hopefully turn it around.

His next game is not going to change anything for me,.  It’s his body of on-ice presence that’s not there.

He is not physical, and does not engage every night, has not, will not. 
We’ve witnessed enough of this type leadership, 

he is an ambassador, not a Captain.. it hasn’t worked out.

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/video/boudreau-says-canucks-woe-mentality-must-change/

 

Fantastic Post and echo's my thoughts as well.  There is no doubt that if JR & Co. really wants to instill a new identity on this franchise - once and for all, it means BO needs to go.    We all love Bo and he's contributed immensely to the team - BUT - anyone who has been around long enough, knows that he got that "C" by default from the Sedins as there was absolutely No One Else to give the captaincy to at the time.    You've also "hit the nail on the head" by emphasizing that he has been neutered by the long standing Stoic swedish style passive-agressive diplomaticaly finessed soft Euro hockey culture that the Sedins lived by and that has hampered this team for decades.   I too, like very many other, wants to rid that overtone from this franchise once and for all and accept that a new more passionate yet agressive "lets get-em" work hard attitude is desperately needed for this team and long overdue.   Torts hit the nail on the head when he desribed this team as being a self-centered country club team of spoiled, entitled and inconsistant players that you'd find in some overly neutered European city.    The sooner this is addressed the sooner this team can finally rebuild after over 20 years of the same failed culture.  To take this a step further, the Sedins should NOT be allowed to spread any influence directly over the players or coaches in any way while they work behind the scenes, so we don't see another generations worth of the same type of affected players.    

Lets not beat around the bush anymore and get on with what we all know - needs to be done!

 

Great Post and hope JR and the new management team takes the necessary action!

[SilentSam]

16 hours ago, RU SERIOUS said:

Fantastic Post and echo's my thoughts as well.  There is no doubt that if JR & Co. really wants to instill a new identity on this franchise - once and for all, it means BO needs to go.    We all love Bo and he's contributed immensely to the team - BUT - anyone who has been around long enough, knows that he got that "C" by default from the Sedins as there was absolutely No One Else to give the captaincy to at the time.    You've also "hit the nail on the head" by emphasizing that he has been neutered by the long standing Stoic swedish style passive-agressive diplomaticaly finessed soft Euro hockey culture that the Sedins lived by and that has hampered this team for decades.   I too, like very many other, wants to rid that overtone from this franchise once and for all and accept that a new more passionate yet agressive "lets get-em" work hard attitude is desperately needed for this team and long overdue.   Torts hit the nail on the head when he desribed this team as being a self-centered country club team of spoiled, entitled and inconsistant players that you'd find in some overly neutered European city.    The sooner this is addressed the sooner this team can finally rebuild after over 20 years of the same failed culture.  To take this a step further, the Sedins should NOT be allowed to spread any influence directly over the players or coaches in any way while they work behind the scenes, so we don't see another generations worth of the same type of affected players.    

Lets not beat around the bush anymore and get on with what we all know - needs to be done!

 

Great Post and hope JR and the new management team takes the necessary action!

This is positive leadership, basic, raw,  hits you in the guts and heart at the same time..

You keep this type of leadership so that another player 5 years down the line , picks up the same chicklets he’s spitting.

Boy, I look forward to this 7 game home stand!

 

https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/video/miller-proud-canucks-contagious-win-maple-leafs/
 

 

[SilentSam]

On 3/6/2022 at 12:57 PM, Mackcanuck said:

 

Lami U-Haul is going to get the opportunity here to become a 1st / 2nd line Center more often next season.

He shines.

Boudreau sees it ,  and it’s hard not to think that he won’t be one.

[joe-max]

17 hours ago, RU SERIOUS said:

Fantastic Post and echo's my thoughts as well.  There is no doubt that if JR & Co. really wants to instill a new identity on this franchise - once and for all, it means BO needs to go.    We all love Bo and he's contributed immensely to the team - BUT - anyone who has been around long enough, knows that he got that "C" by default from the Sedins as there was absolutely No One Else to give the captaincy to at the time.    You've also "hit the nail on the head" by emphasizing that he has been neutered by the long standing Stoic swedish style passive-agressive diplomaticaly finessed soft Euro hockey culture that the Sedins lived by and that has hampered this team for decades.   I too, like very many other, wants to rid that overtone from this franchise once and for all and accept that a new more passionate yet agressive "lets get-em" work hard attitude is desperately needed for this team and long overdue.   Torts hit the nail on the head when he desribed this team as being a self-centered country club team of spoiled, entitled and inconsistant players that you'd find in some overly neutered European city.    The sooner this is addressed the sooner this team can finally rebuild after over 20 years of the same failed culture.  To take this a step further, the Sedins should NOT be allowed to spread any influence directly over the players or coaches in any way while they work behind the scenes, so we don't see another generations worth of the same type of affected players.    

Lets not beat around the bush anymore and get on with what we all know - needs to be done!

 

Great Post and hope JR and the new management team takes the necessary action!

Oh boy. I get that you're not happy with Bo as captain, that you want someone that shows more emotion, more bite, more aggression and generally want the more violent old school hockey back. But "soft Euro hockey culture" with "spoiled, entitled and inconsistant players" from "some overly neutered European city"? Demanding that the Sedins be kept away from the team, so they do not "spread any influence [...] in any way"? And then claiming "we all know" it "needs to be done"?

 

This post reeks of narrow-mindedness and arrogance. Are you saying if not for the soft Swedes like Näslund, Sundin, Öhlund, the Sedins, Gradin or Pettersson or other useless Europeans like Bure, Salo, Lumme or Mogilny the Canucks would long have won a cup? Are you saying Europeans in general and European hockey culture is soft, you know, soft like Esa Tikkanen or Jarkko Ruutu.

 

But maybe they will finally get a good Canadian kid to captain the team that can lead the team to the promised land. Horvat doesn't count, right? But they had this other one, what's his name again? Lulongo or something. Nah, doesn't count, his father is Italian, the mother half-Irish, no wonder it never worked out with him. But hey, they had this other one. Good Canadian kid, strong leader, tough as nails, surrounded by a number of tough fighters like Brashear, May, Odjick, Walker Staios, McAllister, Strudwick and other imposing players like Bertuzzi, Öhlund and Tervor Linden. All on the team in the same year! Easy cup win, no? What was his name again? Was it Mark Messitupier?

 

I wonder how you can stand living in Vancouver as its population is mainly comprised of people with European origin and the city is generally regarded as having a strong European flavour. Btw, Trevor Linden's family emigrated from the Netherlands. Luckily they didn't take useless European diplomacy skills with them...

 

[Mackcanuck]

Strength down the middle

In no particular order

BO

JT

Petey

Lammi

 

 

Dickinson

[SilentSam]

32 minutes ago, joe-max said:

Oh boy. I get that you're not happy with Bo as captain, that you want someone that shows more emotion, more bite, more aggression and generally want the more violent old school hockey back. But "soft Euro hockey culture" with "spoiled, entitled and inconsistant players" from "some overly neutered European city"? Demanding that the Sedins be kept away from the team, so they do not "spread any influence [...] in any way"? And then claiming "we all know" it "needs to be done"?

 

This post reeks of narrow-mindedness and arrogance. Are you saying if not for the soft Swedes like Näslund, Sundin, Öhlund, the Sedins, Gradin or Pettersson or other useless Europeans like Bure, Salo, Lumme or Mogilny the Canucks would long have won a cup? Are you saying Europeans in general and European hockey culture is soft, you know, soft like Esa Tikkanen or Jarkko Ruutu.

 

But maybe they will finally get a good Canadian kid to captain the team that can lead the team to the promised land. Horvat doesn't count, right? But they had this other one, what's his name again? Lulongo or something. Nah, doesn't count, his father is Italian, the mother half-Irish, no wonder it never worked out with him. But hey, they had this other one. Good Canadian kid, strong leader, tough as nails, surrounded by a number of tough fighters like Brashear, May, Odjick, Walker Staios, McAllister, Strudwick and other imposing players like Bertuzzi, Öhlund and Tervor Linden. All on the team in the same year! Easy cup win, no? What was his name again? Was it Mark Messitupier?

 

I wonder how you can stand living in Vancouver as its population is mainly comprised of people with European origin and the city is generally regarded as having a strong European flavour. Btw, Trevor Linden's family emigrated from the Netherlands. Luckily they didn't take useless European diplomacy skills with them...

 

Sounds like your getting a little emotional about this topic?..  is that like you?

[joe-max]

12 minutes ago, SilentSam said:

Sounds like your getting a little emotional about this topic?..  is that like you?

Not at all actually. Not about this topic nor in general. If anything the post that I responded to is overly emotional, but above all it is just stupid. I saw the post and considering that the poster implied to speak for all Canucks fans I felt it shouldn't be let go unchallenged. In about  a day nobody else said anything, so now I felt I had to do it, so that R U SERIOUS does not come to believe his weird thoughts are accepted as general truth. 

[SilentSam]

13 minutes ago, joe-max said:

Not at all actually. Not about this topic nor in general. If anything the post that I responded to is overly emotional, but above all it is just stupid. I saw the post and considering that the poster implied to speak for all Canucks fans I felt it shouldn't be let go unchallenged. In about  a day nobody else said anything, so now I felt I had to do it, so that R U SERIOUS does not come to believe his weird thoughts are accepted as general truth. 

I am in agreement with his post, as I mentioned in the OFFIcial first post to this thread..

This team has had a lack of emotion in leadership for quite some time,.  To get back to that template of a “Stan Smyl” type player and getting rid of the ambassador / King type of leadership will be the best thing this organization could do for its team.

Bo is a ghost..   

I differ to my original post.

 

[jason10009]

Bo is relatively valuable during playoff time though.

[joe-max]

10 hours ago, SilentSam said:

I am in agreement with his post, as I mentioned in the OFFIcial first post to this thread..

This team has had a lack of emotion in leadership for quite some time,.  To get back to that template of a “Stan Smyl” type player and getting rid of the ambassador / King type of leadership will be the best thing this organization could do for its team.

Bo is a ghost..   

I differ to my original post.

 

I respect your opinion regarding the leadership style, but R U SERIOUS could have worded it without the elitist and racist undertone.

 

As for the discussion itself, I only partially agree. It is not the cleverest decision to make the goalie captain nor does it have to be the best offensive player. It has to be a good leader on and off the ice, a positive role model, the perfect captain leads by example, is trusted, inspiring, strong-willed, but also calm, confident, sportsmanlike, can rally his troops, doesn't get rattled and is a good representative of the team. Unlike you, I think being an ambassador is a desired quality in a captain.

 

For me, being aggressive or emotional is not a key attribute, not more than being a calm and steady influence. The perfect allround-jack-of-all-trades-captain can do both, ignite a fire when needed, but also make sure the team doesn't lose composure when things heat up.

 

I find it hard to judge, I don't know what goes on behind closed doors, in training, behind the scenes, but for me Horvat excels in many of these areas. He is not the most extrovert, emotional guy, but if he takes up the calming, steady influence role, while JT brings in the aggression and emotions and it works for the leadership group and the team, why not? Would JT still be able to bring the same level of energy to the ice if he had all the other responsibilities of being the captain, e.g. answering the same stupid media questions repeatedly? Dunno.

 

Malhotra, Öhlund, Mitchell or Bieksa instead of Luongo, Näslund or Henrik would probably have worked equally well as captains, maybe even better in some areas. Then again, it's all what-ifs. We don't know whether Nazzy and the Sedins would ever have reached their potential without the added responsibility.

 

As for the Sedins, they were not soft. They were tough as nails, highly competitive and while the punching-bag incident was frustrating to watch, the Sedins' mistake here was trusting that the referees would do their job. But it was not the reason they lost, they were just finished physically and had nothing left. Can't blame them. I have always admired them for taking the high road and playing with integrity.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[RU SERIOUS]

On 3/7/2022 at 3:28 PM, joe-max said:

Not at all actually. Not about this topic nor in general. If anything the post that I responded to is overly emotional, but above all it is just stupid. I saw the post and considering that the poster implied to speak for all Canucks fans I felt it shouldn't be let go unchallenged. In about  a day nobody else said anything, so now I felt I had to do it, so that R U SERIOUS does not come to believe his weird thoughts are accepted as general truth. 

 

On 3/7/2022 at 3:48 PM, SilentSam said:

I am in agreement with his post, as I mentioned in the OFFIcial first post to this thread..

This team has had a lack of emotion in leadership for quite some time,.  To get back to that template of a “Stan Smyl” type player and getting rid of the ambassador / King type of leadership will be the best thing this organization could do for its team.

Bo is a ghost..   

I differ to my original post.

 

I certainly don't consider anyones opinion on here stupid, outlandish, over reactive or off the deep end - not even Joe max's comments.   Everyone is entitled to their opinion and my opinion like Silent Sam and the many others who clicked on positive reactions to the original post, points out the lack of heartburning emotion in BO and the fact he was moulded by the Sedins Stoic, emotionless, government style of 9 to 5 hockey who were moulded by Naslund who was moulded by..............Hopefully you get the picture!

Bo is a good player and a swell fellow but I still strongly suspect that JR and the other new management team members have him on "The Tradeable List" and thinking a wholesale change in leadership might be best for this team so a fresh path forward can finally begin - away from the last decade of failure, misery and country club culture - all under Bo and the Sedins watch.  Whether we like it or not we can't change these Facts!

Edited March 9, 2022 by RU SERIOUS

[joe-max]

10 hours ago, RU SERIOUS said:

 

I certainly don't consider anyones opinion on here stupid, outlandish, over reactive or off the deep end - not even Joe max's comments.   Everyone is entitled to their opinion and my opinion like Silent Sam and the many others who clicked on positive reactions to the original post, points out the lack of heartburning emotion in BO and the fact he was moulded by the Sedins Stoic, emotionless, government style of 9 to 5 hockey who were moulded by Naslund who was moulded by..............Hopefully you get the picture!

 

Actually, not quite. Who was Näslund moulded by? He played under three captains in his career before becoming one: Lemieux, Linden, Messier. Who of them spoiled him?

 

10 hours ago, RU SERIOUS said:

 

Bo is a good player and a swell fellow but I still strongly suspect that JR and the other new management team members have him on "The Tradeable List" and thinking a wholesale change in leadership might be best for this team so a fresh path forward can finally begin - away from the last decade of failure, misery and country club culture - all under Bo and the Sedins watch.  Whether we like it or not we can't change these Facts!

 

It is certainly a point that one can make and if JR and his team come to the conclusion that they want to go into a different direction and move on from Bo, I will support that decision. They will know better than I.

 

However, I wouldn't say that leadership or a lack thereof is the reason for the "last decade of failure, misery and country club culture". First of all, it was not the brightest last ten years, but they made the playoffs 4 out of 10 years. Not great, but far from a total disaster. The Oilers had 3 appearances during that span riding McJesus and Drysaddle, the Sabres not a single one and the Panthers haven't won a playoff series since 1996. That's disastrous. The team was also not very good through most of these years. If your topscorer has 50 points (13-14 season), your best goal scorers after Bo are Gränlund, Sutter and Bärtschi (15-16) or Del Zotto, Pouliot, Biega, Hutton and Gudbranson are regulars on your D (17-18), you'll have a rough ride.

 

 

[RU SERIOUS]

On 2/21/2022 at 8:18 PM, bigbadcanucks said:

Yup, soft as butter that's been sitting on the kitchen counter for a week. 

 

One thing for sure, Horvat is no Gabe Landeskog, Pat Bergeron, Ryan O'Reilly, or Logan Couture.  Hell, he is barely = Boone Jenner.  These are who I would consider Horvat's comparables in the captaincy department.

 

It's not the Vancouver Canucks Hockey Club...its the Vancouver Canucks Country Club.  Players paid to the cap limit, and yet nothing to show for it but nice homes in Yaletown, Cole Harbour, Point Grey and Shaughnessy.  There needs to be a healthy level of stress and tension to be a contender, and this team has been nothing but laissez-faire for the past 10 seasons and moping around or telling themselves that everything is going to be fine when everything goes int the sh!tter (how many times have you heard "we played great, except for that five minute stretch in the second"?). 

 

Hopefully JR and PA brings in a sense of urgency, purpose and organizational consistency that's been sorely lacking for the past 10 seasons.

Great Post and fitting conclussion to the end of JB's team as we now know it, as the deconstruction of this team will begin in ernest shortly.   Aside from BB, Pearson, Hunt, Ha-Lack, Myers, Hamonic and a couple of others, I won't be surprised one iotta when Bo is traded because we all know he got the captaincy by default becuse there was not a single other person for Hank to give it too. He's done his best and we appreciate his effort but it is time to rid this team of the Jim Benning's signature and rebuild this team into a contender that can actually win in the playoffs - not just make the playoffs - which is all Jim Benning and green ever strived for - and failed miserably at.  

[bigbadcanucks]

1 hour ago, RU SERIOUS said:

Great Post and fitting conclussion to the end of JB's team as we now know it, as the deconstruction of this team will begin in ernest shortly.   Aside from BB, Pearson, Hunt, Ha-Lack, Myers, Hamonic and a couple of others, I won't be surprised one iotta when Bo is traded because we all know he got the captaincy by default becuse there was not a single other person for Hank to give it too. He's done his best and we appreciate his effort but it is time to rid this team of the Jim Benning's signature and rebuild this team into a contender that can actually win in the playoffs - not just make the playoffs - which is all Jim Benning and green ever strived for - and failed miserably at.  

Other than spotting opposing teams a couple of goals in the first, this same group of Canucks have shown some resiliency and fight, which wasn't visible under Benning and Green's watch. 

 

Though I do have to say, the slow starts are on the leadership group -- it's unbelievable to me that this Canucks team can be so flat coming out of the gate on more nights than not.  It takes Boudreau blowing a gasket and Miller to vocalize the lazy first period efforts of this team to get them going.  That's pathetic. 

 

Hate to blame any one player for this, but this one is on Horvat, as I believe it's the Captain's job to get the players in the room ready for action.  Horvat would be better served and the team would be better served with Horvat as an Assistant.  And his twice per season 10-15 game offensive slumps has got to be corrected.

[canuckster19]

On 3/5/2022 at 6:03 PM, danjr said:

I could care less.  With Naslund, we had a mind blowing team with the WCE.  Henrik brought us one game away from the promised land, plus two presidents trophies and scoring champions (he and danny).  Maybe Bo will take us to the final dance.  If he gets us to the final, it's job well done.

You don't have to chop the heads off all your enemies to be a great leader.
Gretzky didn't have to say a word, and everyone fell in line.

Yeah but this is a remnant from Gretzky's Oilers, and even with Gretzky they were a complete woe is me team. Naslund said his leadership style was affected by Messier and Messier was definitely a woe is me piece of garbage, the only difference between him and our captains is he was surrounded by some of the greatest teams in history. So from Messier, to Naslund, to the Sedins, to Horvat, this doesn't suprise me at all.

Edited March 15, 2022 by canuckster19