[Trade] Maple Leafs trade Travis Dermott to Canucks for 2022 3rd-round pick

[The Lock]

1 minute ago, aGENT said:

Trading Miller does not equal a rebuild. It's really not complicated.

Not by himself, no, but then we'd also have to look at why this would happen and what we got back. For example, if we got players back, probably just a shifting of players. However, if we got picks back.... that's a little more closer to at least a retool.

 

So "it's really not complicated" is true on the surface, but what's underneath the surface?

 

I guess my question then is is your stance being "we absoluately need to trade Miller"? Like if he wasn't traded, would you be disappointed?

[Alflives]

6 minutes ago, The Lock said:

For sure. Pehrpas not the weakest as we'd still at least have Pettersson, but among the weakest definately.

 

Although I guess it depends on who we get back, provided we're talking a trade.

We aren’t a playoff team with Miller and Bo.  Why would we continue along the same path?  

[The Lock]

6 minutes ago, Alflives said:

We aren’t a playoff team with Miller and Bo.  Why would we continue along the same path?  

Two players alone don't really determine whether a team's a playoff team or not. Remember that there are 12 active forwards, 6 active defenders, 1 active goalie and 1 backup goalie on a given night. This means there's more than 1 path to create a playoff team. Some of those paths could involved 1 or 2 of Bo and Miller staying, or they could involve them both going. To assume they are the only things keeping us from a playoff spot: that doesn't really sound like a truth to me.

 

Then there's the argument that, if we take out our record from before Boudreau came in, then we are actually a playoff team. The fact that we've been in the playoff race for as long as we have despite having a miserable record at the start tells me we are at the very least a wild card playoff team as it stands. We're just not there because of our starting record.

Edited April 6, 2022 by The Lock

[Alflives]

Just now, The Lock said:

Two players alone don't really determine whether a team's a playoff team or not. Remember that there are 12 active forwards, 6 active defenders, 1 active goalie and 1 backup goalie on a given night. This means there's more than 1 path to create a playoff team. Some of those paths could involved 1 or 2 of Bo and Miller staying, or they could involved them both going. To assume they are the only things keeping us from a playoff spot doesn't really sound like a truth to me.

 

Then there's the argument that, if we take out our record from before Boudreau came in, then we are actually a playoff team. The fact that we've been in the playoff race for as long as we have despite having a miserable record at the start tells me we are at the very least a wild card playoff team as it stands. We're just not there because of our starting record.

But if we pay Miller 3 more mil and Bo 1 more that’s four more million for those two guys, which takes away from the rest of the club.  So how do we get better than we are now, which is not a playoff team?   

[The Lock]

Just now, Alflives said:

But if we pay Miller 3 more mil and Bo 1 more that’s four more million for those two guys, which takes away from the rest of the club.  So how do we get better than we are now, which is not a playoff team?   

There's more than just Bo and Miller around. There's also Boeser, Myers, Poolman, Pearson, Dickenson. I can see any of these players going and, while a couple of them are good players, I doubt we'd miss them as much.

 

And then there's the Luongo recap of 3 million which GOES AWAY at the end of the season. That's enough money to pay for Miller alone.

 

So don't get tunnelvision from this. There's a lot we can do that doesn't have to involve Miller or Horvat. I don't know what's going to happen personally, but if you think Miller and Bo have to be traded to have a playoff team, you're ignoring pretty much everything else to do with GMing.

[higgyfan]

10 minutes ago, Alflives said:

But if we pay Miller 3 more mil and Bo 1 more that’s four more million for those two guys, which takes away from the rest of the club.  So how do we get better than we are now, which is not a playoff team?   

I don't think they would trade their 2 top Cs so readily.  Replacing top 6 Cs with draft pics would take

years and years and may end up being a lesser product.  They also have to somehow find a solid

3C and beat up the defence.

 

I think it is likely they will end up trading Miller (for whatever reason) and keeping Bo.  They will

trade Boeser before they ever think of trading Bo. Picks and prospects take a long, long time

to develop into a playoff team, let alone be a contender.  The team has some great core

pieces (Hughes, Pete and Demko), so what they need to do is work towards improving the

supporting pieces and clearing cap space.

 

 

[aGENT]

56 minutes ago, The Lock said:

Not by himself, no, but then we'd also have to look at why this would happen and what we got back. For example, if we got players back, probably just a shifting of players. However, if we got picks back.... that's a little more closer to at least a retool.

Yet neither is a rebuild. And I HIGHLY doubt we'd be getting only picks back, or even years away players back.

 

 

56 minutes ago, The Lock said:

 

So "it's really not complicated" is true on the surface, but what's underneath the surface?

 

Still not really complicated. Moving Miller =/= a rebuild.

 

56 minutes ago, The Lock said:

I guess my question then is is your stance being "we absoluately need to trade Miller"? Like if he wasn't traded, would you be disappointed?

 

Short of him signing a far more team friendly deal than is realistically reasonable, the other options are a bad contract, or walking for free. Neither are options IMO.

[J-23]

I wonder if Boston has any interest in Miller. Would love to go after Fabian.

[The Lock]

42 minutes ago, aGENT said:

Yet neither is a rebuild. And I HIGHLY doubt we'd be getting only picks back, or even years away players back.

 

Still not really complicated. Moving Miller =/= a rebuild.

 

Short of him signing a far more team friendly deal than is realistically reasonable, the other options are a bad contract, or walking for free. Neither are options IMO.

It's find if you doubt things, but that's obviously going to be an opinion and all I'm really doing here is providing "what if" scenarios to show things aren't always that set in stone.

 

Moving Miller by himself, as I've stated, is unlikely a rebuild, however there is the possibility it would be the start of one. This, again, is what I mean by there's more to it than just looking at the tip of the iceberg.

 

In terms of your last sentence, so what makes you say he's not going to sign a team friendly deal? Everyone here's talking 8.5 mil which the Luongo contract coming off the books alone can pay for, so 8.5 mil we can actually afford believe it or not, so then it's term that's the real issue, yes? Do we know for certain, and I stress FOR CERTAIN (meaning I don't want to hear "I am sure he wants 8 years because of other stuff that doesn't create certainty either" sort of replies ;), I mean concrete evidence certain), that he will want 8 years, making it a bad contract?

 

I guess I just don't believe in the whole "we have to sign him or doom and gloom will happen to us" mentalities at the end of the day. It just shoots ourselves in the foot if that's what management actually think because it ignores way too many possibilities. If we trade him in the end than great, if we don't though then chances are we've figured this stuff out contract wise. If not, then start questioning management early.

 

So I guess I just can't agree with you that we HAVE to trade Miller. I can agree that it's a possibility, but I don't agree that we have to.

Edited April 6, 2022 by The Lock

[Gawdzukes]

1 hour ago, JM_ said:

the point I'm making is that trading Miller may have unintended consequences, like e.g., Bo not wanting to stick around. I don't think I'm making a false claim there, he stated he doesn't want to stick around for another rebuild.

 

So, any plan that moves Miller needs to have a plan for moving Bo too. 

I think you're being a little over dramatic. Bo is also the Captain of the team. He's only played for one team for 8 years. I think it's a risk that needs to be taken without much caution. I highly doubt he walks away from the Captaincy and quits. In addition they can negotiate them at the same time. If we're forced to take on boat anchor contracts to satisfy our players we're doomed. I'd rather rebuild in that case then self imposed sucktitude for 8 years.

[aGENT]

38 minutes ago, The Lock said:

It's find if you doubt things, but that's obviously going to be an opinion and all I'm really doing here is providing "what if" scenarios to show things aren't always that set in stone.

 

Moving Miller by himself, as I've stated, is unlikely a rebuild, however there is the possibility it would be the start of one. This, again, is what I mean by there's more to it than just looking at the tip of the iceberg.

 

As could keeping him.

 

38 minutes ago, The Lock said:

In terms of your last sentence, so what makes you say he's not going to sign a team friendly deal? Everyone here's talking 8.5 mil which the Luongo contract coming off the books alone can pay for, so 8.5 mil we can actually afford believe it or not, so then it's term that's the real issue, yes?

Can afford and should afford are not the same thing. And yes a long term is a concern issue. However, the shorter the term, the higher the AAV. They are linked. That $8.5 is over 7-8 years. Reduce the years and the AAV rises. There's no escaping it. His next deal will likely be +/-$65m divided my how ever many years, gives you your AAV. Either the deal is too long or the deal is too high of an AAV (or both lol).

 

38 minutes ago, The Lock said:

Do we know for certain, and I stress FOR CERTAIN (meaning I don't want to hear "I am sure he wants 8 years because of other stuff that doesn't create certainty either" sort of replies ;), I mean concrete evidence certain), that he will want 8 years, making it a bad contract?

What's certain is that his agent will be asking for +/-$65m (he's already tweeted Zib's $68m contract as a comparable as well as the "show me the money" tweet). Again, you can divide that amount by however many years you like. None are something the Canucks should be signing. 

 

38 minutes ago, The Lock said:

I guess I just don't believe in the whole "we have to sign him or doom and gloom will happen to us" mentalities at the end of the day. It just shoots ourselves in the foot if that's what management actually think because it ignores way too many possibilities. If we trade him in the end than great, if we don't though then chances are we've figured this stuff out contract wise. If not, then start questioning management early.

 

So I guess I just can't agree with you that we HAVE to trade Miller. I can agree that it's a possibility, but I don't agree that we have to.

I never suggested there aren't other possibilities. But I'm not particularly interested in unrealistic or ethereal ones.

[Ballisticsports.]

2 hours ago, The Lock said:

 

 

And then there's the Luongo recap of 3 million which GOES AWAY at the end of the season. That's enough money to pay for Miller alone.

 

So don't get tunnelvision from this. There's a lot we can do that doesn't have to involve Miller or Horvat. I don't know what's going to happen personally, but if you think Miller and Bo have to be traded to have a playoff team, you're ignoring pretty much everything else to do with GMing.

Isn't a good chuck of that Luongo's 3 million cap now required for 2 other goalies caps we will pay in 2023 in Holtby and Halak now though?

[JM_]

10 hours ago, Gawdzukes said:

I think you're being a little over dramatic. Bo is also the Captain of the team. He's only played for one team for 8 years. I think it's a risk that needs to be taken without much caution. I highly doubt he walks away from the Captaincy and quits. In addition they can negotiate them at the same time. If we're forced to take on boat anchor contracts to satisfy our players we're doomed. I'd rather rebuild in that case then self imposed sucktitude for 8 years.

who says they have to be boat anchors? 

 

I don't see drama here, I see the reality of a short career. Would you stick around and go through a 3rd retool, or go to a contending team?

[aGENT]

10 hours ago, ba;;isticsports said:

Isn't a good chuck of that Luongo's 3 million cap now required for 2 other goalies caps we will pay in 2023 in Holtby and Halak now though?

Yes, but I believe most (all?) of those expire before a Miller extension kicks in and we have other raises due that will eat up those dollars anyway. Nevermind that we actually want the team to both get better, and not be terminally at the cap/in LTIR, right...?

Edited April 6, 2022 by aGENT

[Ballisticsports.]

14 hours ago, Alflives said:

But if we pay Miller 3 more mil and Bo 1 more that’s four more million for those two guys, which takes away from the rest of the club.  So how do we get better than we are now, which is not a playoff team?   

Management is leaning your way too i think Alf

We’re not a contending team right now. So every single player has something to prove to us. And that’s going to be the mindset moving forward.”

 

Allvin knows he has some tough roster decisions to make in the months to come, with Brock Boeser needing a new contract and both J.T. Miller and Bo Horvat heading into the final years of their deals. And yes, the salary cap presents challenges.

 

“I you want to be a good team, there’s only so much you can pay for players. You can pick and pay one or two players a lot of money, but then you know, the team in front of you is not good.”

[Gawdzukes]

1 hour ago, JM_ said:

who says they have to be boat anchors? 

 

I don't see drama here, I see the reality of a short career. Would you stick around and go through a 3rd retool, or go to a contending team?

Well the Miller contract looks to be an anchor no matter how you cut it so I guess all we can hope it's magically (very small chance) not. We can also hope it doesn't rain in Vancouver in May but I'm not putting any faith in it. Bo will get and sign a reasonable deal imo. If we sign Miller then I think we let Bo go (trade) anyway. Just as negligent as keeping Miller would be signing a $6.5m 3rd liner when we have multiple glaring holes in other spots of the line-up.

 

If I was the Captain and a stand up guy, which I believe Bo is, I personally wouldn't be walking away from the challenge I was given or the responsibility. As the Captain I would find that weak and uncourageous and that's not how I read Bo. If we need to give him $16 million (incl Miller) to stay here then we might as well give up, or at least stop caring at that point.

 

However, the money ear-marked towards Miller would actually go to fixing the areas that need fixing. I'm pretty sure Bo is fairly intelligent and he can clearly see that. Miller on the team means it's almost impossible to get any better without catching lightning in a bottle. But yeah maybe you're right on Bo. I definitely get he wants to start winning. I'd rather blow it up though in that case, At least there would be something to look forward too.

 

I've already gone through 3 dead Covid years and 8 more years of throwing time and money away is a pretty depressing thought for me.

[JM_]

4 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

Well the Miller contract looks to be an anchor no matter how you cut it so I guess all we can hope it's magically (very small chance) not. We can also hope it doesn't rain in Vancouver in May but I'm not putting any faith in it. Bo will get and sign a reasonable deal imo. If we sign Miller then I think we let Bo go (trade) anyway. Just as negligent as keeping Miller would be signing a $6.5m 3rd liner when we have multiple glaring holes in other spots of the line-up.

are you suggesting Bo is a '3rd line guy'? 

 

4 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

 

If I was the Captain and a stand up guy, which I believe Bo is, I personally wouldn't be walking away from the challenge I was given or the responsibility. As the Captain I would find that weak and uncourageous and that's not how I read Bo. If we need to give him $16 million (incl Miller) to stay here then we might as well give up, or at least stop caring at that point.

what does that have to do with him wanting to win? he's already held up his end of the deal, our management group hasn't. He has nothing to be ashamed of if he wants to go win somewhere else. 

 

4 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

 

However, the money ear-marked towards Miller would actually go to fixing the areas that need fixing. I'm pretty sure Bo is fairly intelligent and he can clearly see that. Miller on the team means it's almost impossible to get any better without catching lightning in a bottle. But yeah maybe you're right on Bo. I definitely get he wants to start winning. I'd rather blow it up though in that case, At least there would be something to look forward too.

 

I've already gone through 3 dead Covid years and 8 more years of throwing time and money away is a pretty depressing thought for me.

Dunno, I haven't seen a Miller trade idea that does that. Kapanen won't fix anything in our F group. 

 

Edited April 6, 2022 by JM_

[Gawdzukes]

22 minutes ago, JM_ said:

are you suggesting Bo is a '3rd line guy'? 

 

No he shouldn't be but if Miller and Petey are still on the team something has to give there right? Petterson on Bo's wing is mildly interesting but as we've seen it doesn't seem to be overly effective. In addition it seems a complete miscast to me. So then Petey is 3rd line or I guess we force Petey back onto Miller's wing.

 

$6.5m or more for a third line Center (warning bells) seems like a cap mistake. Kind of like keeping two starting goaltenders. How do we afford any quality wingers? Sounds a lot like we're just keeping the same team.  Not really looking forward to that.

 

This is off topic but I'm warming up to the idea or re-uniting Bo with one of his wedding groomsmen Domi. At least we know they play well together.

  

25 minutes ago, JM_ said:

what does that have to do with him wanting to win? he's already held up his end of the deal, our management group hasn't. He has nothing to be ashamed of if he wants to go win somewhere else. 

I don't know I guess we're different people. If I'am a Captain of the team I look at it as my responsibility. I take pride in that and I don't go down without a fight. I wouldn't look down on him at all but I just see him being up for the challenge. To be honest that hasn't even crossed my mind. I could very well be wrong. Conceded.

 

Again though it's a risk I'm fully willing to take. If that's the case get rid of him in the summer. We could sign Miller and make him Captain (but I would just rebuild then).

  

25 minutes ago, JM_ said:

Dunno, I haven't seen a Miller trade idea that does that. Kapanen won't fix anything in our F group. 

 

I take that $9 mil and put it somewhere useful on a guy like Parayko (or similar), or a high scoring winger to play in the top 6 with Petey in two years time. We don't and probably shouldn't spend that money right now. That's the short-sighted approach we've been seeing for 10 years now. This would be money to spend when we're close to being competitive, not a non-playoff team.

[JM_]

14 minutes ago, Gawdzukes said:

No he shouldn't be but if Miller and Petey are still on the team something has to give there right? Petterson on Bo's wing is mildly interesting but as we've seen it doesn't seem to be overly effective. In addition it seems a complete miscast to me. So then Petey is 3rd line or I guess we force Petey back onto Miller's wing.

 

$6.5m or more for a third line Center (warning bells) seems like a cap mistake. Kind of like keeping two starting goaltenders. How do we afford any quality wingers? Sounds a lot like we're just keeping the same team.  Not really looking forward to that.

 

This is off topic but I'm warming up to the idea or re-uniting Bo with one of his wedding groomsmen Domi. At least we know they play well together.

  

I don't know I guess we're different people. If I'am a Captain of the team I look at it as my responsibility. I take pride in that and I don't go down without a fight. I wouldn't look down on him at all but I just see him being up for the challenge. To be honest that hasn't even crossed my mind. I could very well be wrong. Conceded.

 

Again though it's a risk I'm fully willing to take. If that's the case get rid of him in the summer. We could sign Miller and make him Captain (but I would just rebuild then).

  

I take that $9 mil and put it somewhere useful on a guy like Parayko (or similar), or a high scoring winger to play in the top 6 with Petey in two years time. We don't and probably shouldn't spend that money right now. That's the short-sighted approach we've been seeing for 10 years now. This would be money to spend when we're close to being competitive, not a non-playoff team.

So again, I'm back to thinking if we're this far way, why not just blow it up?

[Gawdzukes]

49 minutes ago, JM_ said:

So again, I'm back to thinking if we're this far way, why not just blow it up?

I don't think the fanbase could take it for one but why blow it up when you already have the young building blocks required to move forward? That would be silly. A bit like throwing a temper tantrum because there is a cap limit and just burning your own house down in frustration. No point to it really. You just have to rebuild your house.

 

It seems like you're really just not ready to acknowledge or understand what has already been recorded by pen on paper and stated multiple times. JR and co feel there are some real good building blocks but the team needs some serious re-structuring and cap relief. Simple really. Call it whatever you want our core is young, Miller and Pearson can go.

 

@JM_ I agree blow it up, just keep Hughes, Petterson, Demko, Podkolzin, Hoglander, Dermott, (23 yrs average age for those 6) Bo, OEL (too hard to trade). 65% blow up.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Gawdzukes